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Think it's hard to be in the top 20% of men? Physically, it really isn't that difficult. Look at the "average" male body in the USA.

[deleted]

November 7, 2013
28 upvotes
/r/TheRedPill
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Title Think it's hard to be in the top 20% of men? Physically, it really isn't that difficult. Look at the "average" male body in the USA.
Author

[deleted]
Upvotes 28
Comments 105
Date November 7, 2013 5:02 PM UTC
(12 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/1q40ih/think_its_hard_to_be_in_the_top_20_of_men/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/think-its-hard-to-be-in-the-top-20-of-men.232562
https://theredarchive.com/post/232562
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Comments

[–][deleted] 22 points23 points24 points 12 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

The image at the top is the body of your average male guy in the USA.

Weak, round waist, no legs, just basically soft all around.

No matter where you are at physically (unless you're severely obese) in 6 months you can be better than that guy. In 12 months you'll be better than most guys. In 2 years you'll be bigger/strong/better looking, statistically, than almost everyone.

If top 20% of guys get all the play, this is one of the fastest ways to move up in the ranks.

Also, to take something George Carlin said and adjust it slightly: "This is what the average man looks like, now imagine half of all the men in the country look even worse than him."

[–]3trplurker 16 points17 points18 points 12 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

If top 20% of guys get all the play, this is one of the fastest ways to move up in the ranks.

Except that's not how it works, females aren't men and don't possess the same sexual selection mechanism. Males select predominately based on physical appearance, females based on perceived status and value. That's because she's not just selecting for healthiest body but also for the right behaviors that lead to maximum success for her future children. The selection process is all subconscious, women don't even know they are doing it.

So getting yourself physically in the top 20% IS NOT ENOUGH, you still aren't in the top 20% of men. You need to develop the right behaviors to go along with the body, aka game and IDGAF attitude.

[–]UnpluggedMaestro 8 points9 points10 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

But since guys are visceral creatures, getting the body would help their inner game in building confidence.

[–]3trplurker 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes it does but that's not enough. You won't pass the sniff test and she'll abuse the fuck out of you.

Getting in shape is absolutely important as it shows you have respect for yourself. It's not the end, it's not even the beginning of the end. It's more like the end of someone's first step towards manhood. People can't get hung up about "my biceps are bigger then X, that makes me alpha". Or the idea that all you need is a big body or a symmetrical face for women to sleep with you. It's incredibly misleading and sends the wrong message. If that was the cause then PUA techniques would never work, yet they do. Those guys rarely have rocking bods yet they're success can not be discounted just because it's uncomfortable.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Exactly. Sure it's a positive to have a well-built body, but it won't do much if you lack the status and value (largely derived from your confidence and net worth) to back it up.

If you tell me you have a 30 y.o. guy who works as a cashier at McDonalds and is overweight and wants to be good with women, my main advice wouldn't be to hit the gym but to figure out how he can improve his career. That's far more core than body for men.

tl;dr "Improve your body guys" is about as useful as telling women to be more confident - it's not really the key.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

So getting yourself physically in the top 20% IS NOT ENOUGH, you still aren't in the top 20% of men. You need to develop the right behaviors to go along with the body, aka game and IDGAF attitude.

Why does someone pipe up with this bs everytime physical fitness is mentioned as a route to improving your sexual success...

You are failing to realize (or mention) that a good portion of those attitudes you mentioned are a direct reflection of having the size, strength and endocrine system to back it up. All of which are developed through proper training and nutrition. Which leads us back to: "Females based on perceived status and value," which is true, but again your physical size and muscularity are the physical manifestations of said qualities, so yes, women do sexually select based partly on physical traits, they are however way more choosy than your average man.

Yes, it's true that if you put a complete socially incompetetant man in Ryan Reynold's body, you'd end up with not much of an improved situation, but if you take an average guy with average social awareness and throw him in that body, he would instantly become a glorified poon slayer. And as the OP said, achieving a top 20% body doesn't take much work at all, making it an extremely effective method for streamlining passive game.

[–]3trplurker 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Why does someone pipe up with this bs everytime physical fitness is mentioned as a route to improving your sexual success...

Because it's not bullshit.

We tell people to start lifting because most males today don't take care of themselves and it's the simplest and fastest way to raise SMV. It's not the end of SMV nor is it even the largest determiner of SMV. Perceived success and status are, and those are separate from physical appearance.

Essentially you need all the above. Be in shape and have the attitude to back it up.

but if you take an average guy with average social awareness and throw him in that body, he would instantly become a glorified poon slayer.

No he wouldn't, not remotely. I'm living breathing proof of this. I was into power lifting in highschool, big weights and lots of them, big body, lots of muscle. I was still stuck with a beta mentality and had horrible time understanding women. Now I'm older and while my body isn't like it used to be, my game and attitude have improved immensely as has upped the quality of poon I slay.

So yeah your talking to the "average guy with average social skills" who was put into a rocking body.

[–]ButterMyBiscuit 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Fit men get better jobs, according to statistics. And there is no downside to being in better shape. Just go lift weights regardless of the priority.

[–][deleted] 15 points16 points17 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

If you're a guy in your 20's don't compare yourself physically to middle aged men.

[–]I-skid-on-your-grave 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I wish we could find one for the average 20-25 yr old.

[–]MrMagwitch0 points 12 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So what? Don't compare yourself to men in that age bracket either. Does it mention the spread of what men look like either? Even if that is the median there could be a high standard deviation meaning that the top 20% are a lot better looking.

[–]TRP VanguardHumanSockPuppet 16 points17 points18 points 12 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

I think this is the wrong way to go about it.

Comparing yourself to other people is a symptom of chronic low self-confidence, and a surefire path to disappointment. There will always be someone out there born with potential that you do not have, or who started before you did and is naturally father along in the process.

Instead of using other people as a meterstick, let your RP journey be about focusing on yourself. Learn your own limits and try to overcome them. Learn about your own weaknesses and smooth them off. Learn about your greatest strengths and develop them so you can achieve the most with your hard work.

Your meterstick is about how far you've come. The only person you should compare yourself to is yourself from a few months ago.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Of course of course, but all the same, knowing what you are being pitted against is always an advantage.

Plus nothing wrong with a little self confidence plug. I know I'm better than that sloppy mess in the pic.

[–][deleted] 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]TooTurnt 10 points11 points12 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Why the down votes? People aren't going to look at you and say, "golly, he sure has come a long way!" This is not Seddit. Girls will judge your SMV relative to other males, not to your past self. Not bashing self-improvement, which is obviously the most essential part of strong inner game, nor am I saying to look for outside validation, which is a sure fire way to consistently feel inadequate. I'm just saying the world will compare you to your peers, so you should be doing the same. The key is finding the right balance.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yep. A man's value in a woman's eyes is still relative to other men.

[–][deleted] 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm getting laid a lot more now then when I was younger, working out every day and in great shape but didn't get laid at all. However I've started a working out to get back in good shape, because like other posters have said there's no reason not to. But being strong and/or rich will not help you much in the pursuit of women.

[–]3trplurker 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Because he's not talking about it as an excuse. HSP is talking about the foundation of inner game, which is self acceptance. The core issue that cause's attachment, scarcity mentality and the rest of the "beta" mindset is the inner belief that your "not good enough". This comes from comparing yourself to everyone else and finding yourself wanting coupled with the subconscious belief that you can't be as good as them because your inherently inferior.

In order to permanently acquire an abundance mindset someone needs to fix that core issue. That they can be awesome if they want. That the only thing holding them back is themselves. It will end up igniting the fire that drives self improvement. It will make them not only hit the gym but also study classics and become a more knowledgeable person. From those success's will grow natural confidence that in turn becomes the foundation of a frame that can't be moved.

Doing something "just to get girls" is a surefire way to build shaky frame.

[–]TooTurnt -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Did you read my post? I said strong inner game is essential, but ultimately your SMV is relative to other males. Never did I say to do something "just to get girls". Chill out Buddha, we aren't talking about self-enlightenment, we are talking about getting pussy.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Strongly agree. This new-age RP "never compare" bullshit is idealistic and doesn't reflect the real world. Life's a competition, your job is to out-compete. That doesn't mean constantly comparing yourself to every other guy but pretending that you can be fat and that's great because "it's all in your head" is some straight blue pill bullshit.

[–]wassupdawgg 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Damn. Thats wassup dawg.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

God you're just over analyzing what he said with stupid excuses not to be fit. There really isn't any reason why anyone from TRP shouldn't be at least decently fit.

[–]cossackman 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

What about all the guys who lift who post "forever alone" threads on bodybuilding.com ?

[–][deleted] 22 points23 points24 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

You can have all the money, a great body, and fuck like a sex god, but if you suck at sales you can destroy any deal before it's closed.

[–]3trplurker 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Cough

Basically you just said behaviors are more important then body, which is true. So getting your body in the top 20% doesn't put you in the top 20% of SMV. Its definitely something that should be done, but gaming, attitude and personality are far more important.

[–]aww40 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

If you have an amazing product, you still have to make sure that everyone else knows you have an amazing product. Otherwise you won't get any buyers.

[–]3trplurker 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

And if you have a shitty product, you can still sell with good sales skills.

For short term success sales skills are far more important. Basically PUA / game / ect. For long term success (marriage / LTR) you need equal measures of both.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

People are forgetting that the product is largely the sales technique for men. Your confidence, your ability to sell, IS what makes you attractive. You aren't selling a product, you're selling the ability to sell.

[–]3trplurker 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

No not really. Your confidence, frame and complete personal could be complete bullshit. It works wonders in getting her to buy into having sex with you, but later in during an actual relationship she see's that your fake and leaves you.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I just said it can move you up in the ranks, I never said "Just be in shape and get free pussy"

You need to stand out, being in shape is an easy and obvious way to go about doing that.

Plus just taking your shirt off and having a girl melt and get turned on without putting in any effort is great.

Every advantage is worth pursuing.

[–]x7CR7x 6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

only accounts for physicality

[–]hermit087 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Its the same on 4chans /fit/ board. All those ripped men will dedicate threads to stories about being admired by women, only to awkwardly screw it up once they had to start talking.

[–]orographic 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

They don't approach and act like supplicating betas.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Most of them have shitty physiques anyway. I always find the dudes with godly genetics are also confident and happy with themselves.

[–]AWiseBro 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

They probably don't actually lift or they're still at a point where it's not obvious they do.

[–]widec -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Looks don't matter quite as much when you are a guy.

[–]thedarkerside 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Ah, the BMI. Completely useless for individuals. Mine is 29 as well, at 12% BF. I am also 6' 1/2 and have a waist of 34 (and no, I don't consider myself ripped at all).

[–]elevul 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That average body is a lot better than I thought it would be...

[–]TRP Vanguardnicethingyoucanthave 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Note that being in better shape that that guy is not the same thing as being in the top 20%.

This is more like where you need to be to be at the bottom end of the 20% in my opinion. He doesn't have a six pack, and doesn't have much upper body. Definitely attractive, and with room for improvement.

Also, there's a lot more to male attractiveness than just the physical.

[–]vox_veritas 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Isn't that the kid from Jerry Maguire?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Looks positively feminine. Hip fat instead of belly fat.

[–][deleted] -5 points-4 points-3 points 12 years ago (52 children) | Copy Link

Too bad facial aesthetics>>>>>>>>everything else. You have it or you don't. No hamstering.

[–]orographic 16 points17 points18 points 12 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

What a self defeating comment. Bodyfat changes facial aesthetics. Having a muscular body compliments masculine facial features. You should spend some time looking at transformation pictures of men.

[–]AWiseBro 13 points14 points15 points 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

This ^ your face will inevitably look significantly better once you lean out. Blows my mind how people use this as an excuse not to get in shape.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

It will, but having an ugly face is always gonna be a set back. And unfortunately its one of those few that as a man you can't change much, cosmetic surgery is expensive, risky, and still frowned upon.

No excuse though, just because you can't be the top 1% doesnt mean its ok to settle for being the bottom 50%

[–]caius_iulius_caesar 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Orthognathic surgery (what most men would seek) is generally covered by insurance.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

On a cosmetic basis?

Wow, I'm surprised. Doesnt really matter for me though, being in the UK and on the NHS means its hard enough to get things you legitimately need let alone cosmetic procedures

[–]caius_iulius_caesar 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

NHS does it too.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

The NHS will give men facial cosmetic surgery?

First ive heard of it

[–]caius_iulius_caesar 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

They won't call it cosmetic.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Something to consider i guess. In fairness i dont even know what I'd have done. I'd end up telling them to tear the whole thing down and start again and end up looking like Pete Burns

[–]caius_iulius_caesar 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, every time I'm critical of the Australian health system I think of the NHS.

[–]drallcom3 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Loosing the fat on your cheeks makes your jawline more pronounced and masculine. Add clean skin, which you can take care of yourself, and your face looks good enough. Unless you are just plain ugly. Better get rich then.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I'm not saying that being fit and lean is unimportant, I just think that the reality of the situation tends to be downplayed in the community. Your game will be much better if you're a realist.

[–][deleted] 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]TRP VanguardVZPurp 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm all about self improvement

Lol

Man, we all know that's not true. While there's merit to what you say, you needn't preface it with a lie

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Exactly.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago* (27 children) | Copy Link

I get where you're coming from - this is how a lot of men judge women - you can't work out a busted face and without a conventionally attractive face...no thanks. But no. Women typically care much less about the face. That's no hamstering my friend, my face is super pretty. In fact, a man's face that isn't classically good looking is considered interesting, whereas a girl's that is equivalently disfigured is horseface. Think heath ledger, anthony weiner, adrian brody, are attractive? They have objectively deformed faces. Obviously they get/got laid all the time because of money/power/position/etc. I hear girls say all three are attractive. You just write this off as power bias, but they don't say the same thing about jack black or kevin james - both of which have very symmetrical and aesthetically pleasing facial features (chins and rosy cheeks aside). It's not a coincidence. Attractive for a man means he has a nice body (however the girl defines it) and is alpha as fuck.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Fair rebuttal. I admit I flew off the handle a little quickly.

Since, we talk about hamstering so much, I thought it would be prudent to point out how hypocritical it is to say if you work out hard that you'll automatically be in the top quintile of female desirability.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I can appreciate that. But I think if you are not overweight and have some sense of style you are in the top quintile. The standards really aren't that high because most men are fat and sloppy. It's not so much self-affirmation as a realization that the competition is actually pretty shitty.

As an aside, I think style is more important than fitness for attraction - both of which are more important than facial aesthetics. And I don't think rp values it as much as I do. You can't be fat or pearshaped or have fatfaceosis, that's a prerequisite, but being effortlessly stylish with a meh physique trumps the average male style with a fit body. Having a lean face with a proper masculine silhouette is crucial, but beyond that is a point of diminishing returns. I'm beyond that, but it isn't for attraction. It's entirely for me. Most fit guys have two looks - the baggy tub of shit look where he's always lifting his shirt so people can see he's in shape or the I wear underarmour everywhere look. Both of which make you look insecure and stupid.

[–]3trplurker 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

That would be true if we didn't have globalization and easy access to fake TV.

The "top 20%" isn't a hard set objective pool, it's based on the perception of each individual female. If a female legitimately believes she has access to George Clooney and others like him, then her concept of "top 20" is wildly different the girls who think the football stud is the best available.

In the female mind she takes the entire pool she perceives is sexually available and only desires the top portion of that pool. This is how you get post-wall women complaining "there are no good men". They're concept of available is from they're early twenties and is wildly inaccurate. It all made sense back when we lived in small tribes and 35 was "old age".

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Not really your point, but 35 was never old age. The fact is, overwhelmingly many people died at birth or giving birth. If you survived birth, you died of one of a dozen diseases that kill young people. If a man made it to twelve, he probably would make it 65. There's really no evidence for a change in natural life expectancy.

I agree that it's based on perception, but this only affects the grenades. Hot AND high value girls are rarely single. And not every hot girl can be with George Clooney - they are with the alpha of their tribe. Women have a pecking order too and a part of queen bee is being with the highest value guy in the tribe.

[–]3trplurker 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Women have a pecking order too and a part of queen bee is being with the highest value guy in the tribe.

Every guy she has access to is "her tribe". That's why I mentioned globalization and easy TV, even stuff like facebook / ect. It creates the feeling of a tribe that is significantly larger then what's real. Ultimately the result is that each guy gets compared to the best she feels she has access to.

And AWALT

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

What you're saying makes sense, it just isn't mathematically feasible. Attractive high-value girls aren't single. They don't have literal access to more than 300 people. Maybe that number is too low, but you'd be missing the point if you squabbled.

[–]caius_iulius_caesar 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

This objectively deformed face is better looking than mine.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

He looks great in that picture, incidentally, it doesn't really look like him. Most of the photos of him, the photographer appears to know his deformities and minimizes them. The first and most obvious is his nose, it's always washed out with light, so you can't realize it has no real shape, it's just a bulbous mushroom. His other major deformity is his mouth, which is only obvious when he talks.

[–]RedSunBlue 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

In fact, a man's face that isn't classically good looking is considered interesting, whereas a girl's that is equivalently disfigured is horseface. Think heath ledger, anthony weiner, adrian brody, are attractive?

Owen Wilson has a crooked nose.

Daniel Craig and Steve McQueen have faces that look like an old catchers mitt.

Chicks still think they're hot.

The takeaway: don't be fat, have style and swagger, profit.

[–][deleted] 12 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]averageredditor123 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm well aware of the value of the body. I just don't believe that value trumps that of a genuinely handsome face.

As a 5'5" guy with a handsome face, I strongly disagree.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Ideally, you're 6'1"-6'4", 10-12% bodyfat, impeccable style, make 7 figures a year, run a charity on the side though still dark triad-lite, annnnnnnd have a pretty face. You can take any one of those away and still tame any strange in the world. Probably 2 of them. Some you can change, some you can't. Men hamster on importance for various personal reasons. I'd like to think I'm being objective.

subconscious level women recognize that any Joe Scmoe can spend a year in the gym and gain some muscle.

  1. No. First of all, it doesn't matter what is possible. It matters what is. And what is is everyone is a disgusting fatbody. We don't see body transformations irl. It's very rare. People are fat. They stay fat. People are mediocre. They get worse. People are fit. They stay fit. That's what you see. A woman sees a guy who's fit, she doesn't think, on any level, oh anyone can do that. She just responds. Her giny tingles. He's hot.

  2. It depends on what you mean "showcase" your physique. I wear clothes that fit me, so in a certain sense, I showcase my body every where I go. Do I go shirtless or wear lycra - get a pump stand under the best lighting? No. That's gay anyway. I have a powerful silhouette and everyone sees it. Obsessing about your physique bodybuilder styles is pretty bp if you ask me.

  3. Ideally you have both, but I stand by what I said. All things being equal, a fat guy with a pretty face will get crushed by a busted-face hardbody dude 9 times out of ten.

[–]3trplurker 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

9 times out of ten.

Ten times out of ten.

I can confirm this 100%. I had a friend a few years back that was absolutely gorgeous. This dude won the genetic lottery and won it big time. The kind of face that you see on movie stars and lead singers of fake teeny idol bands. Tall, blue eyes, blond, perfect face with naturally rosy cheeks. Hot girls would approach this guy all the time, he was constantly being hit on by girls.

Was he swimming in poon? Hell no, the moment he opened his mouth they started to lose attraction. He had zero game and big trouble with seduction. I thought it was so strange, but I was BP back then and didn't really see the matrix for what it was. He used to complain that the only way to make a date go smoothly was to go get a BJ from a prostitute first. Guy was ~that~ awkward with women. Great dude otherwise.

And this is in SK where guys with minimal game can pull decent chicks. In the USA he would of been slaughtered and abused by women.

[–][deleted] 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

it depends on what you mean by average, but if you simply mean, not look fat with clothes on...at that boundary, i think it depends on preference with a slight edge to face.

some guys are really gifted in this. i don't mean some guys are naturally lean or naturally muscular - those exist too, but i'm not talking about them. i mean some guys have a naturally small pelvic girdle which even though they aren't super lean or muscular, makes them have a v shape, which, in clothes, makes them look masculine and attractive.

[–][deleted] 12 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

lol. You're drinking crazy juice.

Many men (especially white and asian) have a large pelvis/shoulder width ratio. Being skinny for them means you are pear shaped. Depending on where you lie on the spectrum, it may take zero effort to years to have a proper v shape.

Your this or that choice is idiotic. Lachowski obviously lifts. A lot. Or has the most freakish genetics I have ever seen. Ever. He has more muscle than the average person, in the right ratios, with 8% bf.

You seem to be thinking I'm advocating body building. I'm not. It's a sport and it's hard and blah blah blah - I respect the discipline, but it's dumb and makes people look dumb imo. The only hypertrophy I would prescribe is add some shoulder rip on someone who is lean and shaped like a pear, which is fairly common.

Either way, your all thinsg being equal comparison is idiotic.

[–][deleted] 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

lol are you serious? First of all, he clearly has unnatural mass in his chest, bicep, tricep, and middle delt. Secondly, nobody naturally has a larger middle deltoid, it's always the front delt which is big on naturally big guys. Why is his middle deltoid bigger than his front? Because he made it that way so that there would be a defined v where the bicep, tricep, and delt come together at the top 1/3 of the humorous. Thirdly, even guys with natural chest mass, it isn't evenly distributed. It's in the middle of the pec, tapering off in all directions. He's got pec shape almost up to his adam's apple, with a very abrupt edge. I've never seen someone have that naturally. Ever. Lastly, seeing abs is diet as we all know, but the size and depth of his abs is not natural. This guy spends more time in the gym than I do. No, he doesn't have back and trap size from moving really heavy shit or big ass and hammies from sprinting. But he clearly does a guzillion curls and flies and lateral raises.

note: in this context, natural does not mean "without roids". I simply mean, without resistance training.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

For one, only in rare situations does a man have an opportunity to showcase his physique.

Wear a tight shirt. Done.

I don't understand how this is difficult, unless you simply have nothing to showcase to begin with.

Although you are right, a truly great face is indeed a trumph card. I think the point is, with effort, you can even the playing field against guys holding said trumph card, which I do believe is true for many men.

[–]lono12 -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Heath ledger is handsome. Anthony weiner is nowhere near attractive. Adrian Brody is famous. He's not a sex symbol though. All the guys who are sex symbols have attractive faces. Even ugly men like VIncent Cassell are still "sexy" in a masculine dimorphic way.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

he ledger is handsome? no. he is interesting. he is deformed in a dozen ways. weiner is dumb cunt, but women want to fuck him. adrian brody is a sex symbol. I have no idea what you are trying to say here. My point is, none of these guys are conventionally good looking, but are hugely successful with girls. of course, most of this is money/power/fame/etc, but you don't see this with famous fatbodies.

[–]lono12 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

How is heath ledger ugly? He's a leading man for Christ's sake.

Nobody wants to fuck Anthony wiener. Everyone sees him as a snivling little rat. A better example would have been bill Clinton. He was charming and attractive without being particularly handsome. But Anthony Weiner? Come on.

[–]ekjohnson9 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Get leaner and you'll lose your face fat.

[–]caius_iulius_caesar 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It doesn't necessarily work that way.

Also, you will need your face fat when you get older.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

No need for insults. I'm at 11% bf btw.

[–]ekjohnson9 6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I'm not insulting you, but you're comment is arguing against working out because of facial aesthetics? That's silly. There's always a reason to better yourself.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

He's right, there are huge difference in facial fat at lower BF, only way to find out is to go there ~

[–]caius_iulius_caesar 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

For some guys. Personally, I can be ~10% body fat and still have a slightly chubby face. It'll pay off when I'm 45 tho.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

At some point the fat in your face does come off, you might have to aim for lower than 10% tho ~

[–]caius_iulius_caesar 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I've been down to about 7%. It's still there a bit. It's just the first place I put fat on.

[–]caius_iulius_caesar 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It doesn't trump everything else, but it's more important than lifting.

[–]1PaulRivers10 -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

It seems to me that the reason for this is because that body type is the most optimal work/reward ratio for guys.

A guy will put up with a lot of personality flaws in order to sleep with a visually attractive women.

A woman, on the other hand, seem to find a really visually attractive guy as a reason to shit test him even harder.

Even then, the list of visual attractiveness in my opinion goes like this - 1. Your expression and posture 2. How you're dressed 3. Your actual body type

Yeah, if you're a guy who's fat and overweight, it's difficult to get a girlfriend. But the difference between being in average shape vs being in great shape? Negligible.

The main problem with the model in the article is the stupid "I'm mad and been beaten down" expression on his face. That's a waaaaay larger factor to the unnattractiveness than his small amount of belly fat.

If you took that guy and could do only 1 of 2 things with his time: 1. Get him in shape 2. Make him into a better alpha - more confident, etc etc

2 - imo - would get laid far more often

[–]AWiseBro 6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, if you're a guy who's fat and overweight, it's difficult to get a girlfriend. But the difference between being in average shape vs being in great shape? Negligible.

You're delusional if you think being lean and muscular doesn't have a significant impact on getting women. I'm ~220lbs and 10% BF and it takes very little effort for me to get a women to sleep with me. Women don't shit test me harder either. I used to be fat and scrawny and there is a profound difference in the way everyone treats you.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link

I think his mistake is that he sees (perhaps in himself) that you can be skinny fat and have great success with women, so he interprets this as it doesn't matter. He (or whoever) is more successful or equivalently successful as guys he knows that in great shape. But there are so many factors involved in attraction, the only way to isolate one, fitness in this case, is to experience both sides yourself (or see the difference in someone else who goes from fatass to badass or vice versa) . I also have experienced it and it's fairly huge. I was fit, then I had back surgery and was fat as fuck, then I got fit again. Night and day. It's not that I couldn't get laid, but literally every single thing you do or say is judged less favorably when you're fat. Unless you've experienced it, it's hard to explain. When you look good, girls are so fucking receptive. They're rooting for you. Mediocre joke? Met with riotous laughter. Modestly intuitive insight? Omg so genius.

If you aren't, on the surface, attractive, you have to manufacture attraction. If you're attractive, you just have to not fuck it up. Basically it's like an unfamous comic - who may be fucking hilarious - but the audience doesn't know him and are only there because it's a free show so the special looks sold out. He can turn it around, win them over, but there's gonna be some crickets early on. Think Mitch Hedberg's special. But when the audience knows the act and paid for the tickets, then they root for the comedian. When they root for the comedian, anything is funny. You can put someone in that state, but it's a lot easier when they start out in it. Being attractive is exactly like being a famous comedian doing his set. They root for you.

[–]averageredditor123 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

It's not that I couldn't get laid, but literally every single thing you do or say is judged less favorably when you're fat.

I noticed this same thing as a short guy. People I have talked to that I have never met in real life have been much more receptive to whatever I say, probably because I have a somewhat deep voice so I sound dominant. It's a really good confidence booster when it happens, and I get to feel like a human being for once.

Many times with my real life friends, on the other hand, I will say things and just be completely ignored. To them it seems I just exist, but my presence doesn't contribute anything, so I don't get much joy out of these interactions.

I'm thinking some people love to socialize because they are treated as respectable, dominant figures. That's why the stereotypical good-looking jock is out with his buddies all the time while the pale, bony nerd spends his days playing games in his basement.

Modestly intuitive insight? Omg so genius.

Yeah, people I have never met in real life agree with my insights, while my real life friends will deny almost every piece of information that comes out of my mouth. Even if I'm just repeating what an expert on the subject has said, it's automatically wrong.

[–]1PaulRivers10 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

You guys both read what you were expecting and missed what I actually said.

This is what I said -

Yeah, if you're a guy who's fat and overweight, it's difficult to get a girlfriend. But the difference between being in average shape vs being in great shape? Negligible.

So I mostly don't disagree with what you wrote, but it's not a response to what I was saying.

I'll try to reexplain - 1. Very overweight -> very fit and in good shape - big improvement 2. Slightly overweight -> very fit and in good shape - not nearly as big of an improvement as getting better game, leading a more interesting life, etc etc.

And as I mentioned - your posture, facial expression, and what you wear are all part of "looks" as well.

I'm not going to get into a silly argument about "looks don't matter". I already think they matter - I suddenly got a lot more popular with girls myself when I started dressing more up to date. I do swing dancing (last 2 girls I dated I met through there), and how I dress definitely makes a difference.

But it's like this: 1 - dressed better, but didn't have much to say or do - got more attention for 5 minutes 2 - dressed better, but had a lot to say and interesting stuff going on - girls wanted to date me, sleep with me, etc

A guy only has so much time in his day, and I'm saying he's better of being slightly overweight, but dressing well and having interesting things going on, than he is being super fit but not dressing well and not having much to talk about.

[–]AWiseBro 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I'll try to reexplain - 1. Very overweight -> very fit and in good shape - big improvement 2. Slightly overweight -> very fit and in good shape - not nearly as big of an improvement as getting better game, leading a more interesting life, etc etc.

See this makes it fairly obvious you haven't reached a point yet where you've experienced the difference. I've been the very overweight guy, the normal looking guy, the slightly athletic looking guy and now I'm the in amazing shape guy. There is a profound difference in how people(women and men) act around you from slightly athletic to in amazing shape and it makes all the difference. You're just assumed to be confident, funny, etc and it makes it way easier to do pretty much anything you want. People want to get to know you.

A guy only has so much time in his day, and I'm saying he's better of being slightly overweight, but dressing well and having interesting things going on, than he is being super fit but not dressing well and not having much to talk about.

Why even have the discussion of picking one over the other. Both are beneficial and ignoring one will hurt you on some level. I think most people under estimate the impact of being incredibly athletic and how it will intrinsically boost your inner game/confidence.

[–]1PaulRivers10 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Fair enough, if you understand what I'm saying, I'm not sure what more there would be to debate except to agree to disagree.

I've seen guys go from being "fat" to being in relatively good shape and get treated noticeably differently. But I haven't seen a difference between the very slightly overweight and the very skinny. I live in Minnesota - admittedly it might be different in different places.

I myself was getting fat (but getting fat, not actually fat) and I slimmed back down to "slightly overweight", and I felt it made a difference. But then I started working out - bigger muscles, stronger, etc etc, and I felt that I just got more crap from girls. They acted more "scared" to talk to me, I got more "what are you trying to pull on me?" looks, etc etc. To be clear, I'm not saying I wasn't more attractive to them - but I did feel that I got more shit tested, etc.

I mean personal experience is personal experience. Hard to really debate or get useful info at a certain point.

Like I said in my other post - I did get a lot more positive attention from women when dancing when I started dressing more up to date. And I know I got more interest when I changed my attitude and posture, etc.

[–]AWiseBro 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah, I think it's just something you have to experience first hand to fully understand. Once you get into decent shape, slightly above average I guess, most chicks still feel like they're more attractive then you, relatively speaking. The shit tests probably occur more to a certain extent at that level. I'm long past that point though and don't honestly remember, it was years ago. I'm 6'+ ~220lbs and 10% BF but used to be over 220lbs 25%BF+. Once you reach a certain point there's an exponential improvement. There's a gradual improvement as you go from fat to fit but there's a certain point of lean/muscular where your SMV jumps dramatically.

[–]1PaulRivers10 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Obviously our experiences disagree, but have fun. :-)

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

lol honestly, I responded after I read the whole thread and so I was actually conflating like 3 different posts inadvertently.

[–]1PaulRivers10 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

ha, fair enough

[+][deleted] 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Really? Are you that delusional? Bald, short, and ugly guys get laid all the time. Just because someone has a "defect" doesn't mean it's a lost cause.

TRP is a place to improve yourself and get what you want out of life. Your response does not reflect this.

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