Question for all pills: What is a belief you are actually willing to concede?

[deleted] · 2015-05-29T09:56:27+00:00

Men aren't more noble.

Some men aren't very interested in sex, or have standards they wouldn't abandon even during a dry spell. (TBP is way off when they think this applies to everyone, though.)

Women aren't children. Some just have less practice at living without a net.

Woman can effortlessly get what I want, but they're choosy enough that they can't easily get what they come to want.

A woman might have a lot of partners yet none of them were amazing enough that she'll lose interest in me.

adrixshadow · 2015-05-29T07:59:34+00:00

I am pretty far out on the side of truth for any number of topics so i will go where the truth is.

My opinion is the more knowledge and understanding the better.

Things I am currently skeptical is that women are incapable of love since I have occultist/spiritual leanings and I have another framework for this.

Another thing I am curious is how loyal and sacrificing a women can be and what kind of role fame/captainship plays in it.

wazzup987 · 2015-05-29T05:33:05+00:00

IDK i have been getting pretty frustrated wit the MRM and the tradcon seep they aren't willing to address. the mgtows were right, right wingers and tradcons are slowly grabbing hold of the mrm and using to bash feminism/the left with no regard for men, its just a blunt object to beat their ideological rivals.

it really rather irks me. these fuck wits that care more about beating the left/feminists are fucking up a movement that deals with very really mens issues. and the thing is, is that some of these mens issues require government spending. and the right wing and tradcons generally speaking are against that. Boys falling behind education i can behind that... oh wait you mean my taxes would have to fund that oh well uh sorry but fuck feminism were pals right? i am a mra just like you fellow human. and the tradcon women just want husbands they could give two shits about mens issues. many of the tradcon women don't even get why men shouldn't get married or if they do their response is man up. very few tradcon women will accept that for the foreseeable future marriage is fucked.

so i guess i could give up the MRM if they are going to let tradcons/right wingers drive the movement into a fucking wall

TheGreasyPole · 2015-05-29T08:37:11+00:00

I am willing to concede all my current beliefs, every one.

You have to convince me I am wrong to do so. These days that's a very high bar to clear, unfortunately. But anyone who shows me a truth that requires me to drop an untruth to seize it ? I'm converted.

Now. As to what don't I believe from "our side" ? The 80:20 stuff as it is commonly expressed is bullshit. It's not even a good heuristic like simple AWALT is. But the truth has already done it's work there.

I also think BP women follow two strategies "1 guy strategies" and "2 or more AF/BB strategies" and women change between them. RP also seems to have difficulty with this, saying it's all AF/BB. That's evolutionarily unlikely. It's never all hawks. Only ever a hawk/dove mix, for sound game theory reasons. But, again, truth has already done it's work on me.

Perhaps you could throw me a few ideas and I'll pick a concept I am close to the line on but have not changed yet.

Best way to argue ? Convince people you are not arguing with ! The argument rarely convinces a participant. If that your goal you already lost. Arguments are to convince non-aligned passers by because they don't have their shields up.

Make your argument sound, witty and forceful.

Make your opponent look like a whiny bitch clutching their strawmen. The non-aligned will wander by and have their minds changed when they aren't expecting it. This bypasses their argument shield.

One the bloopers could convince me of ? From bloopers ? I don't think they can. Even though I am willing to drop my shields, they just ain't got the knowledge or the skill. Even if they're right, almost none could present it convincingly enough.

If you gave it a try... And there was some good truth in there... You could do it. The bloopers I've met (with maybe 1 exception) ? Nope. Too ignorant.

What do you want to have a try on ? Which BP belief do you believe is true that RP hasn't accepted yet ? Have a go. You might be able to do it.

The non aligned passers by would benefit from that chat as well.

Come on son ! You want some ! Here I am.... :)

disposable_pants · 2015-05-29T05:10:19+00:00

I just want science or logic. Either one will convince me. I don't care what the view is. If you have a scientific study backing it up or a well-thought out logical argument, I promise 100% to believe it.

It seems like many Red Pillers (and some BPillers too) form their beliefs on their own experience. I don't understand this. Our personal experiences are incredibly biased. Why would you trust yourself that much? The truth more often than not contradicts intuition rather than confirms it. The reason we know so much about our universe and have so much awesome technology is because men (and some women) developed systems that determine properties of the world which do not rely on our flawed perceptions. Why do you want to throw such a valuable tool away? Sure the soft sciences aren't perfect, but they are certainly better than going off of your own observations. I really don't understand why people are comfortable with this.

Anyways, now that I'm done ranting, here is my answer to your 2nd question. I'm willing to concede on all of the following. Some of it I believed before, but some I've changed my mind about since I've been reading here.

Men are vilified for their sexuality.
Women are more choosy than men when it comes to romantic partners. (I actually thought it was the opposite before)
Women can be less loyal than men in certain situations like if their husband loses his job.
Promiscuous partners make more risky long term partners.
Men are more efficient at terminating their emotions. (specific study I found about this changed my mind)
Women are more likely to be fooled into following their gut wrongly than men (there was another specific study about this that I found)
I don't have any problem with evolutionary psychology at all

throwaway-fbgeerqrwn · 2015-05-29T05:01:59+00:00

I don't know what BP ideology is.

If you're talking about the sub TBP is just a satire of TRP. So no ideology there.

If you define BP as everything that's not RP then that definition is completely meaningless.

If you define BP as just the negative of RP then this can be part of BP ideology: TRP says violence against women is a beta trait so men shouldn't do it. So BP says go ahead and hit women. So I assume this definition doesn't work either.

What do you mean by BP ideology?

Personally I don't have any viewpoints I'm willing to concede. If I did have one, I would drop that idea. Why would I keep an idea that's wrong according to me? That's so weird.

But if the question is "Is there some part of TRP you don't agree with" and I'll say yes. Ex: I don't believe women are more manipulative than men.

exit_sandman · 2015-05-31T08:01:37+00:00

a big one: TRP largely glosses over the role of incentivization, which has a hand in many other redpill claims about women/men. The "women are like children"-claim would be an example of this - when people display immature behavior, it's less because they're naturally inclined to do so but because they got used to getting away with it; and in our society that mindset is more likely to be developed by women. Take a society where women are incentivized to not behave like that (because they get their immaturity beaten out of them from an early on) while men aren't (because they get treated like the best thing since sliced bread when growing up) and you'll get the inverse situation - more realistic women and more self-centered and childish men. A similar case could be made about the productivity of both genders (though here the incentivization has a biological instead of a societal reason): men aren't naturally less lazy than women, they just don't get away with it because productivity is a trait that helps them attract mates; which doesn't really apply to women which in turn means that women are never really incentivized to the same degree to be productive. Also, men being more loyal: the average guy suffers from scarcity mentality, while the average girl doesn't. Of course he'll be more likely to stick to his wife and be loyal while she'll always have to resist the lure to get something on the side: he has to actively seek out opportunities to cheat, she gets them thrown at her.
redpillers don't really bother at separating "alphas" from "betas" or "high value men" from "average/low value men" (and also conflate the two whenever it suits them) when a discussion circles around men being awesome. For example, when all the great self-sacrificial traits of men are discussed, it's usually betas displaying them (who are also, see above, more incentivized to display them). Men with more alpha traits on the other hand who are more likely to be used to get away with being assholes will be far less inclined to be altruistic instead of egoistic. On the other hand when it comes to aging of men vs. aging of women, the focus shifts on the above average men who have constantly worked on improving themselves over the years instead of those who deteriorated at a similar rate as most women.
the idea that women are intentionally misleading men. Of course, most women will want to project a certain image of themselves depending on the guy - to quote Mad Men: "you have to let them know what kind of guy you are. Then they'll know what kind of girl to be" - which can be seen as being intentionally obscuring or misleading. However, when it comes to female advice and suggestions and their uselessness overall, an often-repeated sentiment I've seen is that women are intentionally tuning in men on the feminine imperative (because "we girls actually do like nice, attentive blablabla men"). I think it's more cognitive dissonance and women assuming too much when saying something that in itself is utterly unclear (example). Ultimately, I am totally with Goethe here: "misunderstandings and neglect create more confusion in this world than trickery and malice. At any rate, the last two are certainly much less frequent."
the idea that the worst of women are representative of women as a whole. And by that I'm not just refering to AWALT which is more an "all guns are loaded"-style precautionary measure, but about making pretty specific assumptions that simply hold no water (like, say "over 90% of women ride the CC these days")
finally, and still the one thing that irked me from the beginning: the fixation on youth and virginity especially for LTRs. Yeah sure, I see the reasons - young women are hotter and virgins are more likely to actually be committed and not to bail. Even more importantly, the opposite - post-wall women or sluts are bad bets precisely for the reasons TRP reiterates all the time (post wall women are more likely to have settled, (former) sluts are more likely to cheat, divorce, still have hangups about past partners etc.). However, this doesn't mean that the opposite is necessarily that great of a choice - a 20 year old is rarely a good match for a guy over 30, and a twentysomething virgin is a red flag in itself. Not the same red flag as an ex-slut, but still a red flag. Or, to put it like this - I wouldn't reject a young virginal girl out of hand if she was compatible with me, but I simply doubt that a girl like that actually exists.

despoticVeracity · 2015-05-29T05:07:13+00:00

I'm willing to concede anything, given suitable evidence.

Of course, the question then becomes, 'what is suitable evidence?'

The answer is, 'enough to convince a man that what he sees is not what's real.'

Pretty high threshold.

In terms of general RP beliefs that I'd concede? I'd concede the point of substantial biological differences between what men and women want in relationships. I'd be willing to put it all down to society. In fact, I'd even be willing to concede that we can change what we are attracted to, given sufficient conditioning. Simply enough, it's evo-psych, which is top-down based. It looks at conclusions, comes up with explanations, but can't easily be tested separate from society. Thus evidence against it could, in theory, be procured.

Of course, it wouldn't change my support for TRP, as it still works within our current culture.

zikkitzo · 2015-05-29T05:06:56+00:00

Maybe it is a hate cult. It's in response to feminism. Symmetry.

I'm not here to change the minds of Blue Pills. I know how I would have reacted to TRP while I was Blue Pill. Eventually they have to come around themselves like every TRPer did. So why am I here? I like hearing women's views for/against, and female feminists are too fragile to come to a place like this and debate. I find female non-feminist view points to be fairly interesting even when it doesn't align with TRP.

[deleted] · 2015-05-29T17:53:54+00:00

There isn't really any belief of TBP to concede since TBP is just a reaction to TRP. The extent of their ideology is "TRP is wrong"

That being said, I have plenty of criticisms of TRP. the hypocrisy of judging women for their number of sexual partners. The way they coopt other aspects of the manosphere "MGTOW and PUA" and then shit on the groups they stole from. but since were talking about specifics beliefs heres one:

most false rape accusations don't name specific men. read it from a paper written for police to help identify false accusations. turns out there's an entire science to it.

iamyo · 2015-05-29T06:34:02+00:00

Heterosexual women may respond with sexual desire to traits they perceive of as masculine.

It's what TRP is built on.

I will also concede anything if there is evidence but the theory that TRP is built on seems internally inconsistent so empirical facts alone are not going to be enough.

Villaintine · 2015-05-29T09:36:41+00:00

suggested shitting on each other from across an internet forum

Yeah, been there. It got me a three day ban. The sidebar guidelines don't allow for this.

What is a belief you are actually willing to concede?

I'd say most of them so long as explanations accurately describe behaviors I've witnessed and experienced and aren't based entirely on moralizing.

_ArchitectofThought_ · 2015-05-29T21:58:03+00:00

Assuming what they say is true, the self-improvement aspect of TRP can be monumental for some guys. Losing weight, getting fit, gaining hobbies, making more money, generally being more mature, sober, stoic, and sensible regarding life choices (finance, business, discipline, etc). It's kind of admirable, in a way. The fact that it's mainly for the sake of getting attention and sex from women is dumb, but I guess that's what it takes to motivate some people.

prodigy2throw · 2015-05-29T14:33:13+00:00

MRA stuff I don't care too much about. While I think it's a good idea to make men more aware about rape and protecting themselves against false accusations, shit needs to be toned down a bit.

But yeah, the more I talk, interact and observe women, the more I see TRP in it and it's so surreal to me. Not in a "all women are stupid cheating Sluts" way but it's definitely helped me understand human psychology in a way that is not discussed in the outside world. The more I talk to women, the more I find that they are all very much the same.

[deleted] · 2015-05-29T14:51:24+00:00

I suppose that not literally every single RP-centered relationship has to be emotionally abusive. It's at least theoretically possible for a woman to be informed of what her partner is doing (as far as emotional manipulation and attempted abuse is concerned) and fully consent to it. People agree to pet play, full-time dom/sub relationships, consensual non-consent, etc, so it's not impossible for them to agree to a RP relationship.

So in theory, I'd be willing to accept that one or two TRP folks actually have healthy, consensual relationships. Haven't seen it yet, but I acknowledge that it's possible.

Title	Question for all pills: What is a belief you are actually willing to concede?
Author	_ArchitectofThought_
Upvotes	5
Comments	81
Date	May 29, 2015 4:31 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/37omav/question_for_all_pills_what_is_a_belief_you_are/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/question-for-all-pills-what-is-a-belief-you-are.281905 https://theredarchive.com/post/281905

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