Question for blue pillers?

fiat_lux_ · 2014-01-30T01:02:56+00:00

Conquered men have been killed off and enslaved. Men have been castrated to serve as eunuchs unable to pass on their legacy. Men have been the front-line victims of wars. Only half of our ancestors are men.

Male disposability is historic and even prehistoric, but should society treat individuals as less valuable?

not_vichyssoise · 2014-01-30T00:55:50+00:00

Things that have existed for centuries - torture, honor killings, slavery, strict hierarchal structures that enforced inequality on everyone and not just women (All men are created equal is in fact a very, very radical modern idea), insanity as demonic possession, random folk cures like drinking tonics made from piss to cure the cold, all manners of religion, the earth being flat, bad weather being the anger of the gods, the list goes on.

That is a shitty and poor argument. If we took for truth things that were "true" for centuries we'd get no where fast.

not_vichyssoise · 2014-01-30T00:46:13+00:00

Slavery has existed for centuries. For centuries, people thought the earth was flat and the center of the universe. For centuries, diseases were considered to be caused by spirits.

Just because something has been believed for a long time in the past doesn't make it right now.

CFRProflcopter · 2014-01-30T00:44:18+00:00

Is that not argumentum ad populum?

To demonstrate why I think it might be, let me ask you a counter question. People held slaves for centuries, was there a good reason to do so? Is the fact that people held slaves for centuries an argument for slavery?

glasswings · 2014-01-30T02:44:58+00:00

I challenge your question. Have women been considered inferior beings? At what times and places? How would we test that assertion?

I consider dogs inferior, like actually not being able to take on the same importance that a human being can. One of the clearest demonstrations of this fact is that while a man - or a woman - can successfully take charge of a pack of dogs, the reverse is not true.

But I doubt that many classical societies (say, before the Renaissance) actually looked upon women the same way I look on dogs. Gender roles were often strict (and I have no nostalgia for that) but I'd like to hear what actually made a woman's place inferior.

Again, before the Renaissance.

raanne · 2014-01-30T00:56:34+00:00

Women were walking around considering themselves inferior until recently? Or does only half of the population count as consensus? (Arguably less than half because I doubt there is a time frame where men all were in agreement on this)

artthoumadbrother · 2014-01-30T02:23:10+00:00

I don't think those are the only two options. Women are physically inferior and the value of non-physical talents have only recently become widely acknowledged by the majority of society. Remember that while history remembers and touts as heroes plenty of politicians, scientists, and philosophers, those were always from the very wealthy classes who made up less than 1% of the population. There wasn't even a 'middle class' really until fairly recently. At any given time prior to 1900, 99% of everyone on Earth was involved in some form of manual labor for their primary livelihood and men are demonstrably better at manual labor. Women were viewed as a burden because they couldn't produce as much but still required resources from the men in order to stay alive. When you add in the fact that being physically stronger also allowed men to do whatever they pleased to women, it only strengthened the idea that women were weak and to be treated as chattel.

When you throw in the fact that enlightened ideas like 'every life has value' and 'people should free to pursue their own happiness and not enslaved to service others' weren't popular or even generally known up until a couple hundred years ago, it really isn't surprising.

What is surprising is that people who should know better cling to the same ideas today, and for less reason. Really, calling upon the wisdom of the ancients as your appeal to authority is pretty hilariously misguided, OP. They didn't know anything about anything. The average person had no understanding of philosophy, no understanding that other people had lives just as full of emotion and struggle as their own, and no idea how the world around them worked---and no time to think about those things as they had to spend all of their waking hours working their asses off to stay alive. They were also miserable and died from all sorts of ridiculous things. Life was bleak. Uneducated, angry, miserable people will treat each other like shit.

Kind of like red pillers!

Vault91 · 2014-01-30T01:48:20+00:00

yes

Society is a complex thing and fur various reasons some groups had more peer than others

There is some speculation that the advent of farming actually a big factor in woman's place in society

yasee · 2014-01-30T02:59:06+00:00

whenifeellikeit · 2014-01-30T03:43:52+00:00

Women haven't ubiquitously been considered inferior by every group of people, for all of time immemorial.

And in the places and time periods in which women have been treated as inferior, it hasn't been because men are "evil" because that would mean that things such as "good" and "evil" would have to exist and be universally accepted constructs.

I think there were many reasons for the fact that women have been treated as inferior in certain times and places. Just because a "reason" exists doesn't make it justifiable, eternally correct, and applicable to every place, time, person, and situation.

Men have always wanted to put their penises in women and ejaculate. Don't you think that maybe there was a reason for that besides women are inferior?

roe_ · 2014-01-30T04:28:55+00:00

Yes, of course there is.

In survival-focused culture, women are best exploited in the domestic sphere, because that is where they are best protected, and where they can fulfill their primary purpose for survival-based culture, having children (because in survival-focused culture, population growth is important).

In survival-focused culture, men are best exploited doing dangerous & dirty work needed by their culture - labouring in large-scale civilization-supporting projects, soldiering, and generally doing all the risky crap their culture needs them to do. In male minds, they did these things because it allowed them to perceive themselves as superior to women - the reality was, they were disposable.

This is the reality of survival-focused culture - men are given (or burdened with) agency and responsibility, women are given (or burdened with) practically none - because this arrangement maximized their exploitability.

What, you thought only women were oppressed by gender roles?

The reality now is we are free from survival-focused culture, and we're not going back. All we have to do is figure out how to navigate the culture we're in now.

Canned_Wine199 · 2014-01-30T02:58:35+00:00

Mod note: The mods have determined that this post follows the rules of the subreddit, and given that there is insufficient proof to believe this is a troll, the post will stay for now.

not_vichyssoise · 2014-01-30T00:52:52+00:00

Slavery is bad because it is wrong to own humans. In my opinion however women of all races are less then men. How do you explain the fact that men invented everything and built society while women simply were nesters and had children. Even then fathers are more important then mothers.

Title	Question for blue pillers?
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	4
Comments	59
Date	January 30, 2014 12:30 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1wih9k/question_for_blue_pillers/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/question-for-blue-pillers.286286 https://theredarchive.com/post/286286

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