Church Discipline

Red-Curious · 2018-07-30T20:21:15+00:00

As far as I've always understood it, public discipline per 1 Timothy 5:19-20 only applies to church leaders. All other discipline is to happen in private. For example, a couple years ago my pastor had to discipline a woman for repeatedly and unrepentantly cheating on her husband. The two are still married, but living separate. He still attends our church, but she was asked to leave in private and she has agreed to do so. No announcement was made at church about her leaving. I knew another woman who was being obnoxious toward others in the church and trying to cause trouble. It got bad enough that the pastor asked her in private to leave. After recognizing she was no longer welcome (at least as long as her issues persisted), she did not attempt to come back. There was no public announcement related to her leaving. In both cases, only the people directly involved in the situation were informed of the result and it was left to those people to decide who they wanted to tell and how much was told. After all, public declarations like that affect the victim as well as the perpetrator - and it would not be fair to the victim to make a public announcement of the perpetrator's sin when the stigma, whether deserved or not, will affect the victim's life and relationships.

The reason it's different for leaders in the church is that there is supposed to be a spotlight on them. Paul talks in Philippians about leaving behind people who live after the model he gave them - and he encourages others to follow that model. As such, churchgoers should know who the church leaders are and should actively be seeking to live like those people. If one of those leaders is living sinfully, it should be made clear to all people that they should not be living like that person.

The issue we have today is that many churchgoers don't even know who the "elders" (or deacons or advisory team members, etc.) are in their church (I don't know who they are in my church!), so there's no expectation of modeling on the part of the leaders, which is counter-productive to the mission of disciple-making, which is heavily based on life modeling (as opposed to teaching). So, that throws a wrench into all of this as well, where pastors feel they have a prerogative to keep things hush hush because nobody else was even looking at that person's life as a model in the first place. In reality, this is a pastor's habitual sin for failing repetitively to maintain a culture of disciple-making in his church and he should be the one publicly rebuked for it and letting things get to that point in the first place. But yes, such a sinful culture does make it easier for a pastor to engage in church discipline because he doesn't have to out his friends in front of everybody. But this also fails to encourage elders to live to a higher standard because the risks of failing to do so are much smaller.

TL;DR - Public discipline is only for church leaders; for everyone else it's perfectly appropriate to keep it private. As a practical matter, I'm sure there's room to make it more public if the person keeps coming back after a private excommunication, which then becomes disruptive to the body as a whole, warranting the body as a whole to get involved.

As for unsubmissive wives, you're absolutely right. This is certainly a sin issue, and one that often does not get addressed appropriately in churches.

That said, when it comes to public condemnation, because women shouldn't be positional leaders in the church, it leaves the question as to whether or not women should ever be rebuked publicly. After all, if men want the position of leadership, it makes sense that there is a higher risk and responsibility associated that if they fail in their duty to God, which includes obedience and repentance upon failure.

However, I would make some room for the wives of church leaders because they often operate as de facto leaders among women in the church. If a woman is leading a women's ministry, for example, then she is a leader in the church, despite that she may not be paid a salary or be on staff. She still has the modeling influence I referenced above, and that influence is usually targeted at many people, and thus any rebuke should also be before those people who are influenced by her ministry.

That said, we also have to account for the fact that the husband is still ultimately responsible for the leadership of his home. If an elder's wife is unsubmissive and other women look to her as a model, how do we address this? After all, 1 Timothy 3:4 says, "He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect" (also adding to the debate on physical punishment of wives from another thread). Verse 5 then explains, "For if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church?"

So, if it is the man's household and he is responsible for managing his wife under control, then if he were to have her repremanded for unrepentant unsubmissiveness, then should he not also simultaneously resign from his position of leadership in the church? No, most men would much rather hide his wife's sin than accept that conclusion. Or perhaps he is in habitual sin for failing to keep his household under control as its leader, and therefore if she is rebuked he must be rebuked publicly as well.

This leads to the possible conclusion that it's sinful for a man to lead his home in any way other than an RP way.

redwall92 · 2018-07-30T18:54:46+00:00

Yeah ... I hear you. Church discipline should be used for continued, unrepentant sin. But how does that play out in the world of respect that you want to live in?

Hey wife. You better submit good, ya' hear! I'm going to take you before the church elders!! And then you'll submit!! And respect my authorita!!!

Do you want to be married to a woman who is forced to submit to you by some other group of men?

What do you do if she doesn't care to the point of being left outside the church?

Still leaves you in a you-do-you world of making yourself a high-value man. RP for the win.

RedPillWonder · 2018-07-30T22:53:57+00:00

I also think that disobedient and unsubmissive wives are sinning since they are disobeying God's command for them.

They are, you're right.

This should be preached from the pulpit with great power and authority!

Along with every other command, promise, precept and more.

Preach the full Word of God.

The problem is in the vast majority of churches, the pastor's life and family isn't always where it needs to be, he's more likely to have studied just enough to deliver a decent sermon, than he is to have spent significant time with the Lord, knowing full well the honor (and frankly, the trepidation) of standing before the people as a called representative of God and making sure what he's saying rightly divides the Word.

No, instead we often get mealy-mouthed, blue-pill, I'd rather keep my job and please the people, let me spout some feel-good nonsense and have everyone happy and smiling.

Sure, there are "nice" passages in the bible, encouraging and comforting ones, ones that uplift and inspire and set you on fire in a good way so that you want to go out and charge hell with a squirt gun!

But there's also plenty that should make us ashamed of where we stand (if we're not living up to God's standards), that admonish others, that attacks sin, that has the congregation uneasy and knowing they're the target because not only is the preacher preaching the full, unvarnished, plain as day truth, they're also convicted by the Holy Spirit as the words of truth are ringing out across the halls.

Oh, for the preachers of old to return, at least in spirit, where men rise up and rally others to the fight, where love reigns, where sin is condemned, where no matter what the topic, the truth is presented and promoted and we stand on it no matter what, consequences be damned.

We need more men like that. And this sub is doing it's part to teach and build up and strengthen all those interested in joining the cause, changing lives and relationships in the process.

Alright. Mini rant is over.

May the LORD's blessing be on each of you, brothers.

Summit75 · 2018-07-30T21:58:29+00:00

I have never seen a wife disciplined by the church for rebellion against her husband.

I can't imagine, in our culture - even Reformed Christianity - that the elders would order a wife to submit to her husband as unto the Lord, and to revere him. You probably know, as well as I do, the squishy complementation position on these things.

Also, even if they did, it would probably be reserved for gross sins, and not the run-of-the-mill rebellion and lack of submission and respect that most of us probably face. I would be willing to go to the elders if needed, but it would have to be a pretty substantial form of rebellion,

OsmiumZulu · 2018-07-31T03:29:37+00:00

As we've moved around, my wife and I have intentionally attended reformed churches that practice church discipline. That said, there have been very few instances of church discipline that we've seen move beyond the "confront with witnesses" stage. Only two come to mind. Both instances were men, but I do not doubt that the pastors would have taken the same steps with women if the genders were reversed.

I do think there is an inequity though. "Male" sins are much more prominently discussed than their "female" counterparts (pornography vs. erotica, for example), which creates an "awareness bias" of sorts. Further, I think "female" sins are downplayed. A woman found to be addicted to raunchy graphic romance novels would likely be viewed with less judgement / condemnation than a man found with a subscription to playboy.

All in all, I think church discipline is, and should be, rare. I've never felt compelled to bring my wife's sins to the attention of the elders as we have successfully dealt with them in private, as it should be in most cases.

Uncommon_Sense_12345 · 2018-07-30T19:17:05+00:00

You don't say the man's sin. I mean being excommunicated for adultery is way different than your wife going out with a girlfriend to see a movie you don't approve of. One is a major sin and the other borderline depending upon the circumstances.

lololasaurus · 2018-07-31T07:14:28+00:00

My wife was put in church discipline for this reason.

She left the church, claimed she did so before being put in church discipline (true, technically, but she left because the elders began the process of calling her to repentance), threatened to sue the elders, and just started going to another local church that validates her in everything and doesn't practice church discipline. She was finally released from membership at my church with a letter of reprimand, and I was given permission to pursue a divorce (many reasons behind this - she has functionally departed from her marriage vows, though I'm not sure I believe I have biblical grounds).

She is always promoting antinomian garbage and denies scripture constantly and I am grieved to say that she has no fear of God before her eyes, and even argues that such a fear is not Christianity.

It does happen.

justtenofusinhere · 2018-08-07T19:34:50+00:00

You raise some interesting considerations, but ground work needs to be laid before digging into those questions.

Does your church actively voice/teach the position that wives can be in the wrong without that necessitating some wrong by the husband? To state it another way, does your church teach that women can and do sin all by themselves? If not, you have two dangers to the husband trying to utlize chruch discipline.

The first is the shame he may recieve in being unable to control his wife, i.e. if he was a real man, she wouldn't be acting this way. The fear of that alone will probably keep a lot of men silent. The only way to fix this is to actively preach that women/wives do bad because they are fully independent agents. The second danger is, the church believing she is acting out because of his wrong doing, because of the mistaken belief that women only sin as a response to her husband's sin. That absolutely is a trap, because now he'll be punished for her wrong doing and once both of them learn that, her sin now becomes a point of power and control she can weild in a never ending serioes of win/wins for her.

Title	Church Discipline
Author	etaomega
Upvotes	3
Comments	33
Date	July 30, 2018 6:46 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/RPChristians
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/RPChristians/comments/936s8b/church_discipline/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/RPChristians/church-discipline.301825 https://theredarchive.com/post/301825

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