I am a mother needing advice on my son's childhood sexual experiences with his sister. I came here to get a male perspective.

GN19 · 2021-02-12T12:41:47+00:00

This might be way out of kilter but.... a good friend of mine killed a duckling when he was a child. For no reason at all. He threw it against a tree.

He felt so guilty about it that he became a Vet.

He never crossed that line again. Ever.

You’ve spoken about how lovely your son is. Lots of kids make massive mistakes. Other replies have mentioned this. He has a massive conscience about it. He will probably never cross that line again. And may have a good understanding of how consent works, how to avoid coercion and manipulation etc.

dukunt · 2021-02-12T15:28:47+00:00

It used to be referred to as playing Doctor back in the day. Kids being kids. Boys and girls discovering what makes us different. It was innocent. There was no evil motivation behind it. But now we scream rape when it happens and demand justice for kids just being kids. People need to relax. If we make this into a big deal if becomes a big deal.

BIGJOLLYJOHN · 2021-02-12T11:58:11+00:00

It was wrong, sure, but wrong enough to be troubled by it 20 years later? No. Teenage boys often find their hormones overwhelming their sense.

These things happen, much more commonly than you would think, and to a much greater extent than this, in many cases. That doesn't make it right, but it puts it into perspective.

Unfortunately, this situation runs into a couple of major taboos in our society: Sexuality in general, and of children in particular. That is going to make most therapists useless or worse.

I can't give you advice on your children; you know them far better than we do. Maybe just mention to your daughter that your son told you something troubling about the two of them and ask if she wants to talk about it. As for your son, in our society, he is going to have a hard time finding help, so make sure that you are there for him.

Brusanan · 2021-02-12T15:07:27+00:00

This is way out of our domain.

iainmf · 2021-02-12T11:54:20+00:00

I don't know if this will be helpful, but I am reminded by a study of peoples recollections of their first sexual experiences. They asked the same people at age 20 and again at age 40.

At age 20 most respondents said there first experience was awkward, uncomfortable, and they felt some pressure. At age 40, they had a much more romantic recollection of it. The negative aspects where significantly reduced.

My point abut this, is most people have a somewhat uncomfortable first sexual experience, but they forget about the negative aspects and remember it in a much better light as time passes.

Your son should not judge himself too harshly. He certainly should not compare his experience to what other people say about their experiences because they are not accurate. You should also consider that his and your daughter memories are also not accurate. I suspect you son's feelings of guilt have made his memory of it worse than it may have been.

It might also be worth considering similar scenarios to get a better perspective on the situation. For example, if they had been the same age, how would that change the morality of it? If would be less wrong if they were the same age, what makes it more wrong at the actual ages?

I think part of the problem is in our society we demonise men's sexuality and see it as something that takes away women's purity. But that's mostly just stereotypes.

Anyway, that's some thoughts.

Take it our leave it.

MysteryPockets · 2021-02-12T15:20:57+00:00

One of the things I learned going through training to be a foster parent is that in many cases kids end up doing some experimental touching with siblings it can have a wide variety of severity of course, but can be innocent enough and when discovered you have to couch them that it isn't appropriate. He was a little old compared to normal sibling explore but it seems like things may have resolved themselves before becoming horrific but it's not completely un normal. also encourage therapy for everyone involved. Your gonna need it.

reddishwoman · 2021-02-12T16:51:55+00:00

Not a male, but as a csa(child sexual abuse) survivor I want to offer my perspective as someone on the other side of therapy.

Firstly about what you think of the situation of my son encouraging my daughter to touch him at such an early age

This is a wildly common occurrence that no one ever wants to talk about, which is unfortunately part of the problem. Without a true understanding of what was happening to his body and mind(a primal, yet natural urge with proper ways to release it), he actually showed incredible restraint comparatively. He attempted to explore, recognized something was more wrong than expected, then exercised control and disengaged. He was a child doing childish things that ended up having deep consequences. A regrettable part of life.

what to do about my daughter and son now?

Keep this information in your mind as better understanding to their internal/subconscious motivations and fears.

What do I tell or advise him?

I think he absolutely needs therapy. But he(or perhaps you to narrow down the list for him) need to vet therapists in advance. Have a list of questions prepared to ask their opinions on various topics, including their history with csa on either end of the event. This can happen either in an email before, or interview style in the first session. There's absolutely nothing wrong with shopping around until you find the right fit. A therapist-client relationship is like any other, you don't automatically get along with everyone.

The most painful part of my memories isn't the actual event. I always knew some of us were just curious. The second I knew men had different junk(secret knowledge to a kid is a powerful thing) I became obsessed with understanding more. It didn't become harmful until it had to be this huge secret. The whole event left me with more questions than answers, and with no one trusted to ask them to, they eventually just wore me down. Especially once I hit mainstream society and the only childhood sexual events you'd hear about were blatant assault or abuse. So I had to just assume that's what happened to me too, therapy(and a lot of internal work) helped me understand that there was a lot of nuance and it's okay that some bits are bad, some are good and most was neutral. What's important is what you do with those experiences. You can decide if any of that knowledge might help him.

What can I do to support my daughter? Should I just leave it?

This is a tough one. If she's not at a place where she's ready to face it, then trying to get her to get help is only going to backfire. What you could do though, is work harder to cultivate a space where she feels open and comfortable talking about both childhood experiences and sex. Don't think of your goal as getting her to specifically open up to you about this event or into getting her into therapy, but to get her more comfortable talking about these kinds of things in general. This will be good to set the foundation for when she is ready to talk, with whomever it may be. Plus it'll help you two be closer. So yes, for the most part just leave it.

Who can I, or my son, or daughter turn to for help?

Professionals, trusted friends, online communities like this one(stay away from survivors communities. Most of your responses will be others projecting experiences into yours) and probably others. Just keep hunting, he's not the only one with his experience. Surely they've made a place for themselves online.

How can I help correct a mistake that is deeply effecting my son and and maybe my daughter?

It's not really your mistake to correct though. It's his. Yes he was a child, but it's still the truth of the matter. He needs to face the truth of what he did, both the good and bad parts. If he really wants to fix his part in any harm done to her, he'll put his big boy pants on and go get his head straight. That way when she is ready to talk to him about it, he's able to discuss it in a way that can help her. Not just try and assuage his guilt in a brief conversation.

Facing what you've done is painful and hard. Don't hide him from what he needs to do. Don't talk for him in therapy if you decide to go to the first interview session together. But, you can hold his hand. You can hug him and tell him you're proud of him for facing it after all these years. For trusting you with the burden of knowledge. Then let him fight his own battles.

Reddit1984Censorship · 2021-02-12T11:32:38+00:00

Its too much to read for me but my first though is that there is little if non regard about sexual education and our sexual experience as males in society and culture.
Theres nobody there to teach us what is happening with our bodies i would bet thats what happened the simple ignorance.
Society and culture is all about women women women women therefore we men live in darkness.

2021-02-12T16:56:01+00:00

"My son is not evil, misogynistic and I refuse to call him a rapist"

Not seeing where a rape occurred?

I'm sure he isn't evil and I can't fathom what this has to do with the hatred of women!

Children experiment sexually. It is innocent. Also children mature at different ages. Some 14 year old boys are basically men. Some are still more like little boys. It's a messy and complex thing, human sexuality. While this crossed the line a little, no harm was done and I think you are all making a bigger deal out of it than the situation requires.. I'd say keep trying to find a better therapist, preferably one that understands boys and doesn't consider them broken girls. But the best thing here is for your son and daughter to talk it through. As long as he apologises, means it, and she accepts it, and means it; case closed.

As for your 'mums forum': unfortunately modern so-called 'feminism' has become nothing short of applied hatred of men. The vile responses you received are common place when discussing men online these days, we get that all the time. Pay them no mind, they are sexist assholes.

It's a stressful thing, raising kids. Mine have done things that shocked me. But when I look back at my own childhood, I too have done things I wished I hadn't and so did the other kids. But at the same time, we were children and didn't know any better. That's why we don't imprison kids for the sort of things, like assault, that we do imprison adults for. You have to forgive and move on. Try and draw a line under this soon, for everyone's sake. You only get one life so might as well enjoy it.

ThiccBoyChampa · 2021-02-12T15:55:23+00:00

Well from reading this, i gather that he knows that it was wrong and its just eating away at him which sounds horrible especially since it clearly sounds like it was just kids being experimental and curious, kids make mistakes like this sometimes and thats okay it happens, just make sure both of them are okay. I dont really know who they could turn to honestly but you seem like a very understanding and good mom so maybe it should be you.

Gumgumf · 2021-02-12T16:39:50+00:00

This is why sex education is important. Real sex education. Not feminised one they teach in schools, that all men are pedophiles and rapists and all women are victims

carrotwax · 2021-02-12T17:00:44+00:00

It can be impossible to separate 1) the effects of the original incident and 2) the cascading effects of society's attitudes towards such behaviors over 30 years.

I myself was raised by a narcissist mother who used me for emotional comfort and cuddling, not respecting boundaries at all. In the media outreach to document the harms of sexual abuse, it was very easy for me to think there must have been forgotten sexual abuse and attribute the signs of trauma to overt sexual abuse. It's only been in the last 10 years that there's been more acknowledgment covert abuse and systematically not respecting boundaries can create just as much trauma as overt sexual abuse. But because of the framing, over time it affected my memories of the events and attitudes to myself and her. Memories change depending on how they're accessed. We've created an atmosphere where it's almost impossible to talk about such topics without incredible amounts of blame or shame, and this means memories and emotions evolve.

So my view is that there may be strong emotions there on both sides, but it's important to note that many of these emotions may not be caused by the original incident. Emotions should never be invalidated - whatever someone feels is always 'right', even if what they think it means may not be. I hope you can help them continue to see each other as good, loving people. Good people still accidentally cause hurt.

oafsalot · 2021-02-12T17:01:32+00:00

Not actually that unusual, biology + curiosity + opportunity. For most kids that never ends in anything remotely sexual, but for some it does. I can remember being in primary school and do you, show me your I'll show you mine with the girls. I must have been nine years old. Anyone of those times could have turned in to touching, if we had not be in school.

DubsPackage · 2021-02-12T15:26:51+00:00

See this is why in the old days, people never talked about stuff like this. If there was an affair, or, something sexual happened with the children, no one talked about it and everyone just pretended it didn't happen.

Because there's no practical way of dealing with it, and it's so common, kids playing peek-a-boo or "show me yours and I'll show you mine" is ubiquitous.

Most people just never talk about it, they never bring it up, and then after a while they start doubting that it even occured, like maybe it was just something in a dream.

Hell, the therapist is probably even what brought it up in the first place, they probably asked about childhood experiences, and this came up.

It's also the reason people had religion, so that instead of saying "hey sis, remember the time I showed you my binkie?" you go to church and ask forgiveness for your sins and then the padre says, "may God forgive you my son" and all that weight is off your shoulders.

That right there is more useful than 100 years of therapy.

The concept of forgiveness.

People think when you forgive, you're just letting someone off the hook, but psychologically forgiving someone is more useful for the one who forgives than the one who is forgiven. Because the one who needs forgiveness usually doesn't give a shit, it's the one who forgives who has a burning need for justice.

So forgiving people who transgress against you is a very powerful thing, it's a way to unburden yourself.

"Forgive us our transgressions as we forgive those who transgress against us."

That's a very powerful concept.

It means, "I've done some shitty things in my life that I'm not too proud of, and other people have done shitty things to me. So I unburden myself from a need for justice by forgiving them, and I also unburden myself for feeling guilty about the shitty things that I've done."

That right there, worth 100 years of therapy.

Forgive other people and forgive yourself.

If anybody needs to hear that, it's your son.

My 2 cents

youcantdenythat · 2021-02-12T16:08:25+00:00

He needs to figure out what it will take for him to forgive himself.

Like you said, nobody can change the past. It sounds like he has a good relationship with his sister now. It sounds like he's beaten himself up pretty bad about it. So now there's just one question that remains that only he can answer:

What will it take for him to forgive himself?

Silvsice · 2021-02-12T17:23:08+00:00

Kids do weird stuff like that. I once saw a neighbour kid try to fit his junk through the window for all to see and then pee through it. I also recall a cousin touching me inappropriately when we were playing power rangers. It was weird, but it doesn't keep me up at night because it was just a time when none of us were aware of what the hell we were doing, and it's ancient history.

It's like cases where kids pee in bed, shit themselves, or when they shower naked together. It's only weird if you want it to be weird.

By time a kid gets proper sex education, develops empathy and social awareness, it stops being an issue. It's clear that your son has developed way beyond that experience and knows what is right from wrong. The thing is that he's projecting his cognitive ability now to his cognitive ability then. It's not a fair comparison and the very act of doing that fucks people up. It's basically sinking into quicksand because the mind then starts looping into what if scenarios and creating traumatic scenarios which fucks up your mental health.

For example I once pushed my sister and she fell down. Thinking about it right now breaks my heart and I wish I never did that to her. But this is where I'll stop. What's the point of beating myself up for all of that? I just make sure I'm a good brother to her now and that's that. You need to teach your son that what matters is how he is showing up in the here and now. Is he doing his best to be a good son? A good older brother? A good worker? If so, he needs to make peace with that and keep striving to do good in the world. Perhaps he can reach out or donate to victims of sexual abuse so that he feels like he's making amends. Whatever it is, he needs to move forward in life.

I also sense that you're beating yourself up over the situation. All you can do as a mother is just reassure both your kids that you're available to talk if they ever want to.

As for your daughter, you have to let her decide how she wants to handle the situation. Be it to just ignore it or forgive or laugh about it or hold hated for him. It's not for anyone else to decide.

excess_inquisitivity · 2021-02-12T15:29:27+00:00

We're not qualified to give mature, professional opinions on the subjects you're bringing up.

I wonder whether any humans are. Sexual mores seem to be completely overhauled between generations.

I'd leave it at "Consult a professional" but we're also aware that the APA is condemning what they call quote toxic masculinity end quote. I don't know what to advise.

Cablado2 · 2021-02-12T15:15:36+00:00

Your daughter is a disgusting liar. Just think about your child.

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