How to discuss with my gf about a feminist argument that I believe is discriminatory against men.

EvilLothar · 2020-02-18T19:16:31+00:00

She's right. You don't know what women are living.. but that same thing applies to her. She's not a man, so she doesn't know what you or any other man is living.

It's fucking stupid to assume that people can't understand what other people's hardships are simply because we don't live them. Do you see that person in the wheelchair? Do you have an basic idea of how shitty it must be to try to get around? how about stairs? Winter? You get the idea. Sure, you don't know the day to day hardships, but you have an idea.

Don't get into bed with feminists or identity politics. You can't be for equality if you are boiling everyone down to what they are and the color of their skin.

At this point, you're best bet is to cut your ties to her, and walk away before she destroys your life. Not even joking, it will happen. It sounds like you are well on your way to being an MRA, and the more you learn and agree with, the more radical and insane she will start becoming (both in your opinion of her, and her actions/ words when you try to convince her).

As a side note, anyone that uses terms like privilage, lived experiences, patriarchy, can safely be ignored and excised from your life with no loss.

BornFreeWE · 2020-02-18T19:59:17+00:00

" because of my nature "

If that statement comes in you know you are talking to a sexist. Or at least a person with sexist views.

Don't let you get fooled. You are right.

" in the sense that men cannot have the same ability to understand, or men don’t suffer in similar ways "

Again, you are right. That is discrimination against men. And discrimination of your GF against you. This is emotional abuse (intented or unintented).

Either she is lost in that feminism crazyness or she really wants to hurt you. Anyway if she has her antennas on she should recognise that.

I wouldn't get into a intellectual discussion. But more into a talk about your feelings. What are you feeling when she says that to you? Why is she doing that?

KnightofNarg · 2020-02-18T20:33:13+00:00

I find it odd we live in a time where men can become women, but men can't be feminists.

JestyerAverageJoe · 2020-02-18T20:46:56+00:00

Watch the (free on YouTube and Prime) documentary film The Red Pill. It's directed by a former feminist and explores the MRM. Make her watch it with you. If she refuses, dump her.

DonDamondo · 2020-02-18T17:32:03+00:00

In my opinion, I'd just outright say something along the lines of "I believe in the equality of the sexes, and therefore I believe feminism, in itself is sexist, just like I believe if a person solely believed in just tackling issues that men face".

As a man you can still empathise with a woman or different minority (in your racism example), but that you would never live it yourself. As it's like saying "because you aren't a wizard you could never understand Harry potter" but yet you still read it and empathise with the characters.

That being said if your girlfriend self identifies as "very feminist" whatever you say will likely fall on deaf ears as they tend to get tunnel vision and focus on one argument regardless of the reply.

user_miki · 2020-02-18T17:50:02+00:00

So in the way women are not able to understand male suffering? There is correspondence in thinking of that or is only one way street .,you get the blame regardless because you are a white heterosexual male.If you have no voice you must understand that there is no conversation at all, you only listen to a Dictaphone to rewrite your mind to fall in line and obey.Don't question, only believe.It looks like a religion.Religion was not ment to be understood.You must believe what selected priests have to say about God.

I think your definition and feminist definition about equality don't align.If you have not a common ground on understanding basic concepts, again there is no discussion,no debate .

auMatech · 2020-02-18T19:55:21+00:00

Holy crap, are you secretly me? This was me about 2 years ago.

She then adds that this can be compared to Racism, in the sense the, I, as a white male, cannot understand the struggle of black people, because of my nature.

She is racist, by saying because of your skin colour you are invalid or can't ever empathise she's doing what she is accusing you of. Same goes for the gender thing, except in this case it's sexist. That's the thing with those people, they are so blindly unaware of their own racism and sexism that they justify it with their own hatred or bogus ideological theories

shit-zen-giggles · 2020-02-19T04:51:32+00:00

Im new to this subreddit and I really want to educate myself.

First of all: Welcome and thanks for stopping by and being open minded enough to entertain counterarguments.

How would you counter argument this?

I would pose the counter question: If I said "you can't understand this because you're a woman", how would you call this? The correct answer is: sexism. She will likely adhere to the script intersectional feminist ideology and refer to "millenia of oppression", "systemic bias" or "unconcious bias". Which you can counter with "group identity says nothing about individuals, to claim otherwise is biogtry". She will most likely stick to her point with increasing levels of verbal aggression from here on out.

What are your thoughts about this?

To make a long storry short: Don't argue with ideologues. There's no point in doing so. I don't like to say this, but you might be better off ending this relationship. There's a clear incompatability in fundamental positions and values between you in a/the central aspect of your relationship. No good can come of this.

Any recommendations about Men’s rights, gender equality, and feminism?

Cassie Jaye's documentary the red pill is a very good introduction into Men's Rights and the controversity surrounding it.

Here are two introductionary TEDx talks by former femininsts who talk about their experiences with examining Men's Rights positions:

MEETING THE ENEMY A feminist comes to terms with the Men's Rights movement | Cassie Jaye

The Boy Crisis: A Sobering look at the State of our Boys | Warren Farrell Ph.D.

Warren Farrell is the author of several books all of which are worth reading. The one that might be most helpful in your current situation is his first: "The myth of male power".

The following is a very long and very solid piece about the inner mechanics of the ideology that your partner espouses (and were it goes wrong):

Helen Pluckrose - post modern religion and the faith of social justice

Another one focusing more specificly on the dysfunction embedded in the academic pursuit of gender studies scholars:

Undoing Insularity: A Small Studyof Gender Sociology’s Big Problem

Enjoy the watch/read.

bousezz · 2020-02-18T20:46:55+00:00

Aaaaaidan · 2020-02-19T08:45:18+00:00

Here is a good way to argue the point with your girlfriend on etymological grounds.

'Feminism' doesn't really have a single, universal definition. We are all familiar with the feminist movement, but even hardcore feminists often disagree on exactly what feminism means, other than that it aims to address issues in society that disadvantage women (see TERFs and SWERFs, for example).

Because 'feminism' doesn't have a single clear definition, you and your girlfriend might be talking about completely different things. The definition she uses might be something like 'a movement of women who fight for female equality' and yes, by that definition, men can't be feminists.

However, this works both ways. You clearly don't define feminism as a women-only movement, so by your definition, men CAN be feminists. And because there is no clear definition, your personal definitions are equally valid. So next time this topic comes up, point out to her that feminism means different things to different people and that you are a feminist according to your personal understanding of the term.

She will probably respond by saying that her definition is more valid because she's a woman. If she does that, just say that, according to your idea of feminism, having a vagina doesn't give you the power to define words.

The best you can hope for with this is a stalemate where she won't consider you a real feminist but will at least concede that you are not wrong to call yourself one. But hey, maybe it will get her thinking about how facts and logic actually work.

Chewy52 · 2020-02-18T19:19:20+00:00

she’s come up several times with the argument that, I, as a white male, cannot understand what feminist women and women in general are living...

She then adds that this can be compared to Racism, in the sense the, I, as a white male, cannot understand the struggle of black people, because of my nature.

This kind of identity politics / thinking is pure bullshit.

It's an attempt to try and rob you of having any degree of empathy - as if the ability to understand another human being has anything to do with your gender or race.

People can come to understand and empathize with one another when we have shared experiences to draw off of (directly or indirectly even).

This occurs at an individual level, not at a group level.

Which is uncomfortable for them to fathom since they believe otherwise, and aren't trying to understand you or your point of view.

It's not really empathetic of people who pull this crap, in my opinion, and if anything, I find statements like that which I've quoted / bolded above are said by people lacking in empathy themselves. I think it's actually sort of sexist / racist to suggest people can't empathize with each other because of sex / gender / race alone.

bufedad · 2020-02-18T19:12:49+00:00

Just tell her that as a woman, she can't understand what men in general are living.

She can't understand men's lives.

She can't understand men's struggles.

She can't understand men's oppression.

accidental_me · 2020-02-18T19:25:33+00:00

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assertiveness

iainmf · 2020-02-18T21:11:13+00:00

Her perspective is really cynical. If people can't understand each other then everyone is some kind of sociopath who is only using people to get what they want. Empathy is not possible.

I would be interested to see if she thinks the same thing applies to personal relationships. Can people ever form close relationships? Are you and her just allies, rather than partners?

If men and women can form close relationships and understand each other then I don't see why that doesn't apply to society.

shit-zen-giggles · 2020-02-20T18:36:31+00:00

You‘re welcome. Thanks for reading and eventually taking a look at the linked material.

trprep · 2020-02-18T18:59:21+00:00

Be careful if she starts attacking you for being a man, I had a feminist gf that started taking out her issues with men on me, which got really inflamed by seeing everything through a feminist lens, and I can't tell you how painful it is to feel like you have to let someone you love attack who you are on such a basic level so often. If it gets to be like that just run for the exit, it's not worth it.

Title	How to discuss with my gf about a feminist argument that I believe is discriminatory against men.
Author	Nochi420
Upvotes	14
Comments	29
Date	February 18, 2020 5:24 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/f5v9ed/how_to_discuss_with_my_gf_about_a_feminist/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/how-to-discuss-with-my-gf-about-a-feminist.858666 https://theredarchive.com/post/858666

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