Women Against Feminism: A group that fights misandry, looking to build campaigns

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That was a great write up. One thing I'd like to add though is that women's privileges and psychological abuse doesn't really just stop with kids. This is typically a bigger problem with younger couples but women generally do have a great deal of power and privilege when it comes to hurting or destoying a man socially, whether through slander or social manipulation.

Not only are people more willing to defend women, but they are also more willing to take a woman's side in a conflict(girls especially tend to "stick together" over gender than men tend to). This means that women have more social sway over mutual friends, peers, employers or even relatives. Imagine losing all your entire moral support system to a woman, just because she felt like taking that away from you. Imagine having those people you care about and trust most turn on you, maybe even threaten you, just because she willed it so. Not only can she do this but she will most definitely get away with it because she is a woman.

[–]Rethgil 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]uyoos2uyoos2 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago* (55 children) | Copy Link

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[–]uyoos2uyoos2 -3 points-2 points-1 points 9 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

I think I see what's going on here. The understanding of a male hegemony doesn't insinuate that men are the only ones keeping that power structure in place but rather that it's a sociological phenomenon that creeps in to our language, our media, our schools etc. Feminists don't typically blame men for this so much as they blame a continued blindness to the problem - this usually is extended to men and women alike.

When you bring up privilege, I think what you're experiencing is a kind of defensiveness that most people with privilege experience when they are asked to be self-aware about their privilege. Which is to say that it's not one of things you notice is there until it's gone. That doesn't mean it's not there.

And I don't think it's true to state the feminist theory ignores power structures like money(business), religion, media, government etc. I think a lot of feminist theory highlights how these very institutions are used to enforce a kind of institutional sexism that maintains a "patriarchy". There are men and women both who promote patriarchy whether blindly or deliberately but it's mostly a systemic problem.

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[–]hork23 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

For one, quite a few men are becoming disillusioned with women in general. In the past, at least we honored men that sacrificed for women and society. Thanks to feminism (which allowed women to act in regards to their base nature, think of an untrained child or dog) society has shit on men for the past century or more and has taken away any benefits from men of what society needs from men in order to be successful. As a result, men are dropping out and women don't like that and there are fewer providers for those women to leach off of.

Another thing, is that women's happiness have been decreasing over the decades. In part, because feminism has screwed up the gender roles we have which women tend to be happy in but also from what I mentioned at the end of the previous paragraph. The blank slate ideas they hold contribute to this, we're all the same and we should be treated the same. Obviously false and harmful to everyone.

Basically, what I'm arguing is that feminism's negative actions on women have been proximal due to not understanding humans and pushing an ideology contrary to reality.

[–]uyoos2uyoos2 -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

I don't really understand anything you just said. I've got my questions below.

quite a few men are becoming disillusioned with women in general

The question was how has feminism been fucking things up for women, not men. Also - do you have any statistics for this? Seems like kind of a broad sweeping statement that certainly doesn't reflect how I feel.

In the past, at least we honored men that sacrificed for women and society.

What kind of sacrifices for women are you talking about? Also in what way did we honor men? Also how is that different from now?

which allowed women to act in regards to their base nature, think of an untrained child or dog

What Tennets of feminism specifically "allow" women to act like children or dogs?

society has shit on men for the past century or more

How has society "shit on men".

has taken away any benefits from men of what society needs from men in order to be successful.

This is not really comprehensible. Maybe you want to take another stab at it.

As a result, men are dropping out

Dropping out of what?

and there are fewer providers for those women to leach off of.

Isn't one of the major ideas of feminism that women are or can be just as self-sufficient as any man?

is that women's happiness have been decreasing over the decades.

How are you quantifying happiness. Over what decades? Where is this statement even coming from?

In part, because feminism has screwed up the gender roles we have which women tend to be happy in but also from what I mentioned at the end of the previous paragraph.

This statement is almost incomprehensible as the statement it refers back to in the previous paragraph. I think what you're trying to say here is something along the lines of "women are happiest in a subservient/homemaker role and not as an independent person". My question is - where are you getting this from. You say women "tend" to be happy inside of these gender roles but what trends indicate this to you?

The blank slate ideas they hold contribute to this, we're all the same and we should be treated the same. Obviously false and harmful to everyone.

Why is this obviously false? It's not obvious to me or anyone I have ever talked to until now.

Basically, what I'm arguing is that feminism's negative actions on women have been proximal due to not understanding humans and pushing an ideology contrary to reality.

I don't think you know what proximal means. But I think what you're trying to say here is that feminism is negative towards women because it messes with the natural order of things, and that this effects women just as much as it does men. My question would be - how is it that the equality of men and women is contrary to reality and how does this harm anybody?

[–]LedZeppelin1602 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

How has society "shit on men".

Almost all of social care is gendered towards women over men. Men make up the majority victims of violence and homicide yet feminism has made it so that the awareness and campaigns and charities and acts and laws for ending violence are for ending it against women. Thi goes for pretty much everything where men suffer more or equally to women.
Men die more from cancer yet get less funding than women's cancers.
The media re-enforces providing more empathy for women than men by focusing exclusively on women's issues and ignoring men's.
Men make up around 76% of suicides yet the issue isn't gendered toward men, it's neutral.
Men make up almost half of domestic abuse victims yet the media and laws and false statistics teach people that only women suffer this crime.
Men are more likely to be sentenced to prison than women for the same crime and if both sentenced men are more likely to serve more time.
Men have no reproductive rights and feminism helps to keep it that way
Single mother homes are encouraged as empowering but statistically leads to boys from such home environement growing upto be criminals
When a boy is abused by a woman it's not seen as bad as when a man abuses a girl and the abuser isn't seen as criminal
"Women and Children first" is still employed not just in sinking ships but as a tenant of society that has male life as less valuable. Look at the media. Violence against women in fiction is seen as a horrible thing but the millions of men gunned down on screen don't matter

[–]uyoos2uyoos2 -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You're not pointing out ways in which society has shit on men, you're pointing out statistics and giving them a male bend.

For example:

Men make up around 76% of suicides yet the issue isn't gendered toward men, it's neutral.

Actually studies of suicide due tend to focus on gender in combination with social status, country of origin, family status, sexual orientation, etc. There are lots of factors to study here and studying it within the vacuum of gender is not very useful. Still - it gets studied.

Men die more from cancer yet get less funding than women's cancers.

As you might know, cancer is not a monolothic disease. Some cancers that affect almost exclusively women get very little funding. Some cancers that affect exclusively men get quite a bit of funding. Breast Cancer is its own beast and "breast cancer awareness" societies are kind of an industry in and of themselves - not necessarily to the benefit of women or victims of cancer.

You bring up legitimate points here about problems that are ignored in our society and deserve advocacy. You do your arguments disservice by bringing women and feminism into it. It would seem that you're making the exact mistake that you accuse feminism/society of making.

[–]hork23 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

"The question was how has feminism been fucking things up for women, not men."

The reason why it's important to mention men is because affecting how one sex is treated also affects the other. Women are comfortable in their gender role, that's why it's a thing. Take that away by screwing over men and thus preventing that role from being attainable in numbers previously, then women start to become unhappy by this upset.

"Also - do you have any statistics for this?"

Marriage and divorce rates Women's happiness decreasing Men less likely to marry trend

"What kind of sacrifices for women are you talking about?"

Working the tough jobs to provide for their family, jobs that kill at the highest rates compared to others. Firemen, policemen, military men; all professions which are majority men and risk their life to keep people safe. Wondering why you even have to ask this, it's fairly obvious.

"What Tennets of feminism specifically "allow" women to act like children or dogs?"

One thing that feminism does is to prevent women from reaping the consequences of their own actions. Whether that's through the law, the court or in social settings. Since there are little to no boundaries due to poor punishments and deterrents, women do not learn how to moderate their behavior appropriately.

"How has society "shit on men"."

In addition to what /u/LedZeppelin1602 said, feminist dogma can be summarized as man bad, women good. Patriarchy theory, the basis of all feminist rhetoric, demonizes men by stating that men consciously oppresses their daughters, mothers, wives, and neighbors for their own benefit. Further extrapolating this desire to oppress, men must be inhuman monsters that just hate women. Derived from this is calling all man potential rapists, complicit in oppression despite actions to the contrary, and much much more. Feminism teaches hate and fear of men, therefore men must be destroyed if women are to survive. Yes, they are talking about androcide.

"This is not really comprehensible. Maybe you want to take another stab at it."

Affirmative action, discriminates men in favor of women. Hiring quotas, same thing. Duluth Model, men are the aggressors in every domestic incidence. But wait there's more!

"Dropping out of what?"

Of what most people refer to as being a productive member of society. Get a job, become married, pay taxes. Since marriage no longer benefits men (and has for around 100 years) compared to the risks involved, they no longer marry in such numbers and as a result no longer need to work as hard. Society operates by the labor of men, reduce that labor and society begins to fail.

"Isn't one of the major ideas of feminism that women are or can be just as self-sufficient as any man?"

That's what they tend to preach about but they are denying parts of reality. Men are stronger than women, men are more willing to take risks than women, men and women have differing interests, and there are more higher IQ males than females. There are some things a certain individual just cannot do no matter how hard they try, going against reality just makes things worse as time and resources are wasted by doing so. An example, they've tried for decades to get more women in S.T.E.M. and spent many millions on doing it. Women just don't want to do it, it doesn't interest them as much as it does men.

"I think what you're trying to say here is something along the lines of "women are happiest in a subservient/homemaker role and not as an independent person"."

They are always an independent person, marriage or being a housewife doesn't negate that. They are happier in those roles, deferring to stronger men, compared to the roles of men, which is being a disposable provider workhorse and meat shield.

"My question is - where are you getting this from. You say women "tend" to be happy inside of these gender roles but what trends indicate this to you?"

Evolutionary biology. We've co-evolved to adopt these roles and society enforces it for greater survivability of the tribe and individuals. Things that come naturally to us tend to make us happy.

"Why is this obviously false? It's not obvious to me or anyone I have ever talked to until now."

The blank slate is obviously false because there are innate behaviors in infants. If at the very youngest humans are disposed to certain behaviors then the idea that we can imprint anything onto them is anathema to that fact. It's also obvious that we're not all the same just by looking at the genitalia, or the skin color, or the differing sizes of limbs or parts of the body. Since there's a fundamental genetic difference in those areas why suppose that it stops at the neck and the brain is not affected? Are there not cognitive disabilities from birth? From an evolutionary perspective it's ridiculous to suppose we don't have any baggage from previous generations that influence our behavior, disposition, thought process, likes and dislikes, etc. from the time we're born.

"But I think what you're trying to say here is that feminism is negative towards women because it messes with the natural order of things"

It's a side effect that feminism's own actions to benefit women (at the expense of men) harms those very same women. That's what I mean by proximal, unintended consequences that coincide with the actions of feminists' choices.

"that this effects women just as much as it does men."

Just no, men are harmed to a far greater degree. To say that it harms women just as much as men is indicative of either a lack of compassion for men or an ignorance or naivety of what feminism has done over the centuries in pursuit of their ideology and its attempts and successes to actively harm men.

"My question would be - how is it that the equality of men and women is contrary to reality and how does this harm anybody?"

I think I already answer this but I'll restate. Men and women are different, efforts to correct any deviation or inequality that comes from this difference without consideration of this reality will harm people. Either monetarily or from experimental attempts like trying to raise a male child as a girl, which directly contributed to his unhappiness and eventual suicide. Treating everyone the same, what I mean by equality, is garbage.

[–]uyoos2uyoos2 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

I am sure that this will delight you to hear but what I've just read is truly shocking. The extent to which you have deluded yourself into winding back the intellectual clock past centuries of science, philosophy and culture criticism to arrive at postulations that lower the intellectual bar to, frankly, subhuman is something that shakes my faith in humanity.

But I digress.

Women are comfortable in their gender role, that's why it's a thing.

You clearly seem to have decided this but as I'll mention several times throughout my response to you - women, like men, are individuals. Some women want to "stay at home" and be a Mom, sure. Some women also want to fight for their country. Some women want to run a buisness. Some women want to go into professional fly fishing. If it helps you, you can replace all of these previous sentences with "some men want to.." and the idea should begin to sink in. Women are individuals. Just like men are individuals. Neither are solely a function of biology and to argue as such is to massively misinterpret how the brain affects behavior.

And let me debunk something right now. You seem to be taking a biological approach to interpreting how sex affects behavior. To you, Men and Women's brains are simply different and therefore women are happiest one way, men are happiest being another way and to ignore these factors is to ignore some genetic destiny. This makes me think you took some entry level psychology class as a part of your liberal arts requirements and got maybe a C+. The reality is that there are features of the brain that are common in men, there are features of the brain that are common in women - but most people have a mixture that is unique specifically to them. You know, like an individual. I seriously can't believe I'm having to say that but you seem to need to hear it.

I don't know how you've been sourcing your opinions - maybe they have no sources. But here is a study from Tel Aviv university conducted in 2015 that at the very least seems to undercut some of the base assumptions you've been making. I'd give it a read: http://www.pnas.org/content/112/50/15468.abstract

Now the presumption you've drawn from the data that YOU sourced is laughable. I'm not going to touch so you win - women are decreasing in unhappiness. We can agree on that.

Working the tough jobs to provide for their family, jobs that kill at the highest rates compared to others.

You know, like how women do. This is the 21st century buddy - women make the same sacrifices and typically the only reason you don't see as many women in the fields you say are "majority men" are because of gender barriers. Shit women weren't even allowed into combat roles until recently in the military even though plenty of women have been dying for their country in combat regardless of their Rate.

I also find it deeply disturbing that somehow YOU want some kind of thanks for the sacrifices that other people have made simply because you share a gender with those people. I think I'll continue on thanking firefighters for their sacrifices and other service men and women for theirs - and keep you in the category of "worthless assfuck". You and other men don't get to claim some exulted status in society simply because you have a dick.

One thing that feminism does is to prevent women from reaping the consequences of their own actions.

False. Just...like where are you even getting this from?

feminist dogma can be summarized as man bad, women good.

Lol what world do you live in? This is the most intellectually dishonest, uninformed thing I have heard in a long time. Feminist "dogma" as you say is simply focused on the issues that affect women and what they ought to expect to do to stand up for their rights. Feminism stopped being concerned with "MEN" as a "target" a long time ago. Like the 70's. I think you need to do a little more research on feminism and feminist critical theory. It's almost exclusively focused on women, men simply don't enter in to it. Individuals may be criticized be feminists for their believes but they aren't criticized simply because they are men - they are criticized for what they say and do.

If I were you I'd be doing some research on second wave feminism, post feminism, internationalist feminism. Your monolithic attitude about feminism betrays your ignorance. Maybe you should shadow feminism and make male advocacy less about what you don't like about feminism and more about male issues. Feminism hasn't done you any harm.

Affirmative action, discriminates men in favor of women.

You're not going to hear me defending affirmative action any time soon but I'm not really crying for the male that didn't get hired because an equally qualified female beat him out of it. The horror stories that you hear about some super qualified male getting hired in the place of some ultimately unqualified female is completely ridiculous. This issue has been litigated in court so many times and time and time again the courts have supported an employers right to judge the quality of the candidate above their gender. It's when trends exist within a hiring pool that this has been litigated successfully.

Sorry to burst your bubble but you're not failing to be a captain of industry because women are getting jobs instead of you. It's just because you're not that attractive of a candidate. So sorry.

Now gender disparities in criminal cases? You've got a great point there - societal conceptions of male aggression affect males in a lot of different ways. For example black males have a tough time with the law because their blackness and their maleness have a nasty combination where people think they're dangerous just because. THAT is a male issue worth advocating over. I don't see what it has to do with women or feminism. Rather I think it's a societal problem where men are attributed in this way due to the various media out there. That media, I'll remind you, being male dominated.

Oh lord there's a lot to unpack with this next one, I'll give it a go.

as being a productive member of society. Get a job, become married, pay taxes.

So first of all, getting married is not necessarily everyone's goal. The data doesn't support that this is somehow men that don't want to get married. Mostly men and women want to get married less on the whole as the cultural strictures around the nuclear family, religious ceremony, and monogamy erode in our society. It's odd that you somehow attribute this to the rise of female agency and diluting of male privilege when there are so many other things that better explain this.

Getting a job? It's true that many men have dropped out of the workforce but that's not necessarily true for younger men, it's more true for men in their 30's and 40's who had to drop out of the workforce due to the economy and have since failed to continue seeking employment. This is studied a lot of behavioral economists and I don't know a single one attributing it as having anything to do with feminism/women.

And I'm sorry - paying taxes?

Society operates by the labor of men, reduce that labor and society begins to fail.

I can't tell if you're making an economic argument here or not. Are you suggesting that the fabric of intersocial operations is a function of male maintenance? Women don't contribute to society as much as men - is that the argument I'm hearing? Or if this is an economic argument you're somehow saying that literal male labor runs our economy and therefore if males drop out of the workforce, presumably leaving only women, that society will crumble.

If you're making an economic argument then you would be right but not because MALES are dropping out of the workforce - but probably because half the countries citizens would have dropped out of the workforce. That would be detrimental indeed.

Either way your argument is incomprehensible. I don't know, maybe you understand it but I don't.

Men are stronger than women

How much do you bench? I've got news for you - I'm a powerlifter. When I workout I workout with about 70% males and 30% females. I'm stronger than most of the males and most of the females but roughly the same amount of males and females are stronger than me. Yes, men can pack on more muscle than women and faster than women can do it - but you'd be surprised at what level of athleticism that factor really comes in to play. We're talking about the higher echelons of a sport.

That average male is a fucking wet noodle. I'm not really impressed by this "men are stronger than women" thing.

An example, they've tried for decades to get more women in S.T.E.M. and spent many millions on doing it. Women just don't want to do it, it doesn't interest them as much as it does men.

Lol. As an engineer I'd have to tell you you're dead wrong about this. Women are plenty interested in STEM fields, it's the culture of many STEM fields that make women less likely to succeed. It's just full of a bunch of foaming at the mouth sexist assholes like you. I'll remind you that it was a woman who founded the field of computation mathematics. It was a woman who wrote the Apollo code. You're a fucking imbecile.

Again, I think I have to re-iterate. Women are INDIVIDUALS. Their interests are as individual to them as they are to Men. Someone's attributes, strengths, weaknesses are born and are learned, over time their potential is expressed as a function of their environment in combination with their natural ability. You, for example, have obviously sharpened your skills as an ignorant cunt over the years and are better at being an ignorant useless cunt than any feminist in the game. This is just satire of course. I'm sure you're a fine individual.

Whelp, I'm at the character limit the Reddit allows and I'm also at the limit of my patience for this conversation. You lead an unenviable life, my friend. I hope you have a come to jesus moment soon. You sorely need it.

[–]hork23 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

I'd highly recommend giving this documentary a watch.

Regarding your first paragraph, nice way of saying I'm wrong and a terrible person for thinking such things. Bet that makes you feel good.

People are individuals, that's not news to me but perhaps you think so little of other people (especially those whom you disagree with) that most don't know about it. We can also generalize people, which is what I've been doing.

"Neither are solely a function of biology"

Yeah, I know. The environment has an affect as well.

"and to argue as such is to massively misinterpret how the brain affects behavior."

So the brain has little affect on one's behavior? It's all environment? Look up some twin studies.

"And let me debunk something right now."

You didn't debunk anything, you claimed I'm wrong, that's it. You seem to reject that biology has an affect on our brain, behavior, etc., and that we're a sexually dimorphic species that entail differing behavioral strategies.

So there are patterns that are typical of male and female brains, how does that not support what I've said earlier. Biology determines how our brain is formed and we're a sexually dimorphic species.

"This is the 21st century buddy"

And what does the [CURRENT_YEAR] have to do with anything? It's 12AM, that means something!

"women make the same sacrifices and typically the only reason you don't see as many women in the fields you say are "majority men" are because of gender barriers."

Gender barriers, so it's a social construct that women don't want those dangerous and dirty jobs. Just like women don't typically care for S.T.E.M. careers. Yeah, you got nothing. The most dangerous jobs consist of a vast majority of men, where's all the women and why aren't they going into it?

"Shit women weren't even allowed into combat roles"

Because it's dangerous and men want to protect women. OMG what a concept, society trying to enforce gender roles that benefit women. So women not being allowed in a combat role is somehow oppression? Seriously? Combat isn't some fucking glorious party that we let the elites participate in, people die. Stop pretending it's some great thing that anyone ought to be lining up to join in on. Also, did you know women rejected the right to vote because they feared they would drafted FOR THE FUCKING WAR? Yeah, get your head out of your ass and actually listen to what women say.

"I also find it deeply disturbing that somehow YOU want some kind of thanks for the sacrifices that other people have made simply because you share a gender with those people."

Is it possible for your not to demonize me based on your misconceptions? I don't care about the thank you and in fact I think it's insulting. 'Good job man, you lost your health and limbs to save some people, here's a stupid medal.' What men do in these fields is necessary for society to function and I am grateful to them, but I'm not going to sugar coat what they paid by something so shitty. Also, I am describing what society has been doing in regards to men for a great deal of time, honoring them for their sacrifices.

"and keep you in the category of "worthless assfuck""

So you hate me just because I disagree with you, you've labeled me a dangerous male based on my opinion. Why do you hate men that aren't useful to you?

"You and other men don't get to claim some exulted status in society simply because you have a dick."

I didn't, stop pretending to know my thoughts. I think society, right now, is toxic to men and you're part of that.

"Feminism stopped being concerned with "MEN" as a "target" a long time ago."

Then you haven't been paying attention. You've got this nice picture in your head of what is going on and it's all wrong. What caused all those feminists to attack a men's rights group? Perhaps their ideology was the cause. But no, you say feminism stopped being concerning with man-hating. Hmm, who is wrong then?

"make male advocacy less about what you don't like about feminism and more about male issues"

I'll do whatever I want, piss off about trying to control me.

"For example black males have a tough time with the law because their blackness and their maleness have a nasty combination where people think they're dangerous just because. THAT is a male issue worth advocating over."

The gap between male and female rates is LARGER than the gap between whites and blacks.

[–]uyoos2uyoos2 -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

To add to the list of your cognitive difficulties - you also seem to have trouble reading. Ultimately anything I would need to retort to in this response would be a repetition of a statement I've already made. Feel free to review and study.

One thing I'll mention, because you screwed it up a couple of times, I never stated that the brain doesn't affect behavior. I stated that you severely misunderstand how the brain affects behavior. The study I sourced actually shows that "male" and "female" patters are somewhat useless when comparing brain scans. Most individuals had a mixture of "both". Kind of kills the concept of genderizing a brain.

Actually male and female bodies are biologically different mostly in terms of how androgen affected the wolfian ducts when they were growing up and how the hypothalamus thinks about hormones. That's basically it.

Anyway, I don't hate you dude. I just thing you're really really stupid and it makes me sad that you exist. You're what I would consider to be a step backwards. And if you were one in a million it wouldn't be that upsetting - it's that you're one of many ignorant people on this sub who are so intellectually behind that it dims the prospect of progress for years to come. You've got problems - but I sincerely hope that you get better.

[–]hork23 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

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[–]uyoos2uyoos2 -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

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Title	Women Against Feminism: A group that fights misandry, looking to build campaigns
Author	theothermod
Upvotes	134
Comments	48
Date	March 23, 2017 8:33 AM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/610oci/women_against_feminism_a_group_that_fights/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/women-against-feminism-a-group-that-fights.928194 https://theredarchive.com/post/928194

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