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UK teachers have been told not to call girls 'girls'

thumbsdrivesmecrazy

July 1, 2016

52 upvotes

/r/MensRights

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Title	UK teachers have been told not to call girls 'girls'
Author	thumbsdrivesmecrazy
Upvotes	52
Comments	46
Date	July 1, 2016 6:19 AM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/4qqaub/uk_teachers_have_been_told_not_to_call_girls_girls/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/uk-teachers-have-been-told-not-to-call-girls-girls.946316 https://theredarchive.com/post/946316

Comments

[–]NUMBERS2357 9 points10 points11 points 10 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]garglemesh42 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]JebberJabber 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]WhiteNitro69 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]JebberJabber 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Trans people make up a mere .3% of the population, society should not have to worry about offending them by changing the way speak.

A mixed group is addressed as "ladies and gentlemen", however disproportionate the mix is. To do otherwise is plain rude, unless perhaps the minority gender are accepted to be present incidentally and are not valid members of the group.

I imagine you don't have the experience of being misgendered except as a meaningless and extremely brief accident by a single individual, corrected instantly and completely just by your assertion.

If you try to imagine being misgendered you will probably imagine other accidental scenarios where it really does not matter, and if it did matter you would just leave.

Now imagine you can't leave. It is not just one or a few people. It is people who have power over you, people you need to work with and the only people available to make friends with.
And your family, often.

[–]JebberJabber 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]JebberJabber 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

those that transition are 20 times more likely to commit suicide.

What does this have to do with anything, other than to show that trans issues affect people deeply?

Was this M>F or F>M trans? They are very different groups.

20x more than what, anyway?

20x more than people who wanted to transition but couldn't because they had entered a randomised controlled experiment and lost the toss so were put in the group that didn't transition?

That would be a spectacular result, but that experiment could not exist. It would never get ethical approval nor would the subjects comply, it would be wrecked by the high drop-out rate.

So, 20x more than non-trans people of the same gender? Or of the same sex? There is a 4x difference depending which you choose. (what on earth do non-trans people have to do with this scenario anyway?).

So, more realistically, 20x more than a control group of people who are matched for rejection by their families, friends and workmates; and for crushing debt and difficulty finding work; and for loneliness due to being such a small minority, and for being comprehensively misunderstood? Those sorts of things are all heavily involved in suicide.

What do you mean by transition? For some it starts when they identify themselves internally. Others, when they come out to selected friends. Or when they first appear in public as their ID gender. Or when they start the long medical process e.g. six months counselling to establish stability and exclude various mental illnesses. Or when they start hormone therapy.

If they ever choose surgery, they might see their first surgery as the start of transition.

[–]WhiteNitro69 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]JebberJabber 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I know hardly anything about trans issues but it is bizarre to imagine that gender reassignment surgery is still being done (and publicly funded in many or most countries) if results so clearcut as a 20x increase in suicides had been discovered. In other words, your source either does not say what you say it does, or it is rejected by an overwhelming majority of experts in the field.

I'm not actually drunk but it is a measure of how fuzzy my mind is at the moment that I wasted time checking. Briefly, your source is an anti-LGBT activist who has been strongly criticised by the author of the research he misrepresents.

Johns Hopkins stopped SRS in 1979 by decision of Paul R. McHugh. He is strongly religiously motivated as a conservative Catholic. Now 85, he is still used as an expert by various hate groups attacking gays and trans people, and by forces seeking to exclude LGBT people from insurance cover relating to their orientation or identity.

http://www.advocate.com/commentary/2015/12/15/scary-science-johns-hopkins-university
.

The abstract of the American Psychiatric Association Task Force on GID's report from 2012 states, "The quality of evidence pertaining to most aspects of treatment in all subgroups was determined to be low; however, areas of broad clinical consensus were identified and were deemed sufficient to support recommendations for treatment in all subgroups."[3]

The APA Task Force states, with regard to the quality of studies, "For some important aspects of transgender care, it would be impossible or unwise to engage in more robust study designs due to ethical concerns and lack of volunteer enrollment. For example, it would be extremely problematic to include a 'long-term placebo treated control group' in an RCT of hormone therapy efficacy among gender variant adults desiring to use hormonal treatments." [3]:22

The Royal College of Psychiatrists concurs with regards to SRS in trans women, stating, "There is no level 1 or 2 evidence (Oxford levels) supporting the use of feminising vaginoplasty in women but this is to be expected since a randomised controlled study for this scenario would be impossible to carry out."[7]

Following up on the APA Task Force's report, the APA issued a statement stating that the APA recognizes that in "appropriately evaluated" cases, hormonal and surgical interventions may be medically necessary and opposes "categorical exclusions" of such treatment by third-party payers.[4]

The American Medical Association's Resolution 122 states, "An established body of medical research demonstrates the effectiveness and medical necessity of mental health care, hormone therapy and sex reassignment surgery as forms of therapeutic treatment for many people diagnosed with GID".[5]

The need for treatment is emphasized by the higher rate of mental health problems, including depression, anxiety, and various addictions, as well as a higher suicide rate among untreated transsexual people than in the general population. Many of these problems, in the majority of cases, disappear or decrease significantly after a change of gender role and/or physical characteristics.[21][22]

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_reassignment_therapy

[–]JebberJabber 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Update: I found your reference. Paul R. McHugh mentioned the 2011 whole population study by the Karolinska institute in Sweden, which he says found a 20x higher suicide rate in post-op transgender people who had their surgery in 1989 or earlier compared to non-trans people, not to those who chose not to have surgery (who would not be a comparable control group anyway).

Well, so what? It is often said that gay youths have four times the suicide rate of straight kids (I have no idea whether that is high, low or fictional). But anyway, so what? Neither figure is surprising and neither figure tells us anything other than that life is difficult for gay youths, and more difficult for trans people.

But wait, he ignores the result from post-1989 post-ops, who do not have significantly worse outcomes than the general population.
Two obvious explanations for that, both ignored by McHugh, are that psychological assistance and social acceptance are both vastly better now, and pre-1990 surgery was crude compared to modern procedures.

[–]JebberJabber 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 10 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]JebberJabber 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]geniice 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]BDMR_lurker 7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]JebberJabber 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]BDMR_lurker 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]mikesteane 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]geniice 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]mikesteane 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

What exactly do you think either had to do with private schools in 2016?

The EU is an organistion with tentacles and influence probing into every little detail of people's lives. The "Dear Colleague" letter which also had no legislative power behind it was also the result of the larger political situation, one in which it now seems that the right to be believed is more important than due process.

The article is about a advice given by the GSA. An association of private schools. Under the current constitutional settlement of the united kingdom they do not have legislative powers.

It makes no difference whether an authoritative instruction is a law or simply an instruction that must be obeyed. In fact, in this case, the non-statutory nature of the instruction makes it more powerful. If I break a law such as trespassing on somebody's land, the application of the law requires a lot of paperwork and proof, as well as positive action, whereas as a teacher who fails to carry out the petty dictates of the educational authorities can simply be passed over for promotion.

[–]Lethn 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]geniice 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Lethn 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]geniice 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Seems like a blatant violation of free expression to me,

There is no right to free speech in the UK. The closest would be Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights however its not as absolute as its US analogue.

what if these girls are completely fine with calling themselves girls? These schools are trying to force their own ideological beliefs onto them.

The advice is for teachers not pupils

We've seen that when this shit is taken through a proper court system the majority of it doesn't succeed, like with the Title IX cases. People who do this are counting on precisely your attitude, they think nobody will fight back, which is why they get such a nasty shock when people do.

How exactly do you suggest we take advice to teachers on what they should call their pupils in a private school enviroment through the court system?

[–]binrobinro 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]FEMIMARXIST 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]WhiteNitro69 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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