So, a friend / colleague decided to "argue" why i should be a feminist.. and well.. this happened.

_desa · 2015-11-05T00:15:23+00:00

Anybody ever notice that embracing the label is way more important than actually living the principles?

They really do elevate image over substance.

2015-11-05T02:01:40+00:00

Damn, excellent job on delivering the rekt to that guy OP.

Just more proof that Feminist arguments simply fall apart when countered with hard facts that are delivered in a calm, civil manner.

ghebert001 · 2015-11-05T02:43:46+00:00

Your mistake was assuming facts would have any effect on someone with an ideological viewpoint. It's nearly pointless trying to change the mind of someone who's a "true believer". One thing I would mention is that advocating for everyone's human rights, men and women, is not synonymous with feminism...it's not like one cannot exist without the other. Also bring up things like NOW (National Organization for Women) which is the biggest feminist organization, constantly opposing shared parenting initiatives...basically opposing equality.

JayBopara · 2015-11-05T00:54:09+00:00

Anyone reading that conversation would see your point, unless they were a feminist or white knight. You absolutely destroyed him. And he did not bother responding; what a loser.

MrDoradus · 2015-11-05T00:35:25+00:00

Even if you argued like the most intelligent person that ever lived, you would not have convinced this ideologue. But I still prefer him over plenty of other self-proclaimed feminists just because of his "I don't want to force you, you have a right to not like feminism" mentality.

TheRationalChannel · 2015-11-05T04:07:48+00:00

It's funny how they care more about the label than the actual issues.
Tell a feminist you identify as a egalitarian not a feminist.
What they hear: "I thought it was funny when Chris Brown beat up Rhianna as I think violence against women is always good. Also GTA is a good life guide for how to treat women."

SRSLovesGawker · 2015-11-05T06:48:32+00:00

Challenge the idea that "if you believe in equality you're a feminist". It's a common tactic to try to absorb people into the cult, and it works by confusing people with the (ostensible) goals of feminism with the beliefs and processes of feminism.

The stated normative goal of feminism (well, most feminisms, because there's 2938423 varieties) is equality. This is a fine goal and one I support, but wanting equality isn't enough to make you a feminist. Lots of groups want equality. Secular humanists want equality. MRAs want equality. Equality is written into the constitutions and charters of most western nations. Equality was in the slogan of the French revolution: Liberté, égalité, fraternité... by the logic of "if you believe in equality you're a feminist", that also makes you a secular humanist, an MRA, and a french revolutionary.

Clearly, sharing the normative goal isn't sufficient to be considered a feminist. The deciding factor is the descriptive part of feminism (or at least, most of the dominant forms of feminism, again because there's about 2839429 types), which is:

Things are currently UNequal, with the inequality disproportionately disadvantaging women
That the inequality is caused by oppression due to "patriarchy"
That "patriarchy" must be destroyed before equality can be achieved

If you buy into that, or the "kyriarchy" (intersectional) variant, then you're more likely to be considered a feminist. As you can see, that's considerably more elaborate than just "supporting equality", and this doesn't even touch on the massive social constructs, shibboleths, ingroup/outgroup policing and so on that comes with the feminist label.

the_dingding · 2015-11-05T00:19:13+00:00

did she ever respond?

2015-11-05T09:49:37+00:00

Pls pass this on to your 'friend':

"Get over the idea of your own goodness and live a little."

chocoboat · 2015-11-05T03:28:15+00:00

I personally find the question: do you believe in equality of genders? to be a bit weird. What is equality in this case? Identicality or a lack of discrimination wherever the differences between the genders do not make it unjustifiable? I usually go by the latter definition loosely. But the term equality is vague and doesn't have much meaning

chocoboat · 2015-11-05T08:27:31+00:00

where i messed up on or could have done better

There's not much you could have done better. (except one typo, you have deaths on the job listed as 97/7 instead of 93/7)

Possibly just skip the attempt to debate and go straight to the stats, and say "Equality means addressing these issues too, and feminism doesn't. Equality means recognizing when men face problems too, instead of insisting that only women are ever the victims of anything."

A lot of people discussing these issues with feminists let the conversation devolve into bickering over which gender has it worse, or whether the best way to help men is through feminism, or whether MRAs are bad people... just endless derailing and insisting that feminism is the One True Path.

Your way is far better. Just drop those stats in their lap and see what they do with them.

BlacknOrangeZ · 2015-11-05T00:57:18+00:00

FH has 20 staff now? Good for you guys!

jimmywiddle · 2015-11-05T03:44:19+00:00

lol, good job. Hit them with facts and they will start insulting you or go silent.

Never stand by while foolish people claim something is true when it clearly isn't.

There are lots of other stats you could of used as well but you did good.

These people rely on people to be dimwitted and ignorant on these matters, thats the only time they can achieve ultimate victimhood status. When they meet someone that actually knows what they are talking about they are screwed.

wisty · 2015-11-05T06:53:19+00:00

Probably best to note that it's partly semantic.

Like, you're both for equality. But you think that things are better for women in some ways, worse in others. And after about 100 years of feminism (about 50 years with extremely strong institutional support), the things which are obviously bad for women and possible to do anything about have all been done.

In fact, a lot of women's problems might be things that don't bother feminists. Like women don't need to succeed, because society will take care of them if they fail. (Thus wage gaps at the top).

And even if you're for equality, men and women aren't 100% identical, and maybe they shouldn't be.

As for every other issue, feminism does not have a monopoly on "compassionate left-wing". They want it to be, but it's not. And the compassionate left-wing isn't right about everything.

2015-11-05T11:23:22+00:00

Well, he's right on one thing, though not in the way he intended. The media's view on feminism is fucked. They think it's some great thing, when it's not. Mainstream media doesn't buy into the reality of feminism.

Who is the last comment by? Someone else? Because that amused me. It's true, feminism is all about helping privileged women get better positions. When they are already in better positions than most women, and men.

steagles1 · 2015-11-05T13:37:32+00:00

Dropped the fucking hammer! Well done OP!

2015-11-05T17:59:19+00:00

"Feminist" is a meaningless title. There are so many different denominations, many in direct opposition to each other. There is no common thread that isn't shared by many non feminists, so in effect feminism, until it gets its shit together and starts delivering actionable objectives, is a hollow title.

Case in point, I'm a 15th wave feminist: we hate feminism.

visitor33333 · 2015-11-05T06:54:23+00:00

Where you fucked up is where you imputed the intention to imply fault, and before that when you demanded justification from feminism rather than simply stating objections to it. Then you throw out a bunch of stats, which only impresses those who are in agreement or have no opinion.

If someone asks me why I'm not feminist, I'd say that all feminist activism I'm aware of is openly hostile to basic western values of free speech, due process, equality before the law and really the rule of law itself. If they told me that 96% of CEOs of fortune 500 companies were men, I'd point out that 96% of those CEO's spouses are women, in positions of extreme wealth and privilege, and that I don't know which other 500 women I should compare those 500 men to in order to conclude that women are disadvantaged as a group. Most people live together in families. The top of society is half men and half women. The bottom is the same, with lots of impoverished single mother headed households and lots of incarcerated, deceased, and homeless men. I'd offer similar obvious, but outside the box rebuttals of whatever else they have to bitch about until I find anything feminists actually lobby for that isn't evil.

Title	So, a friend / colleague decided to "argue" why i should be a feminist.. and well.. this happened.
Author	FHlogin
Upvotes	45
Comments	38
Date	November 5, 2015 12:01 AM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3rk94z/so_a_friend_colleague_decided_to_argue_why_i/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/so-a-friend-colleague-decided-to-argue-why-i.967925 https://theredarchive.com/post/967925

Comments