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Differences between men's issues and women's issues.

Wild_Aioli · 2022-03-12T00:11:28+00:00

Basically, when women are expected to do gender stereotypes, they're victims, but when men are, they're called toxic diagnosed with toxic...

Wild_Aioli

March 12, 2022

93 upvotes

/r/AntiFeminists

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Post Information

Title	Differences between men's issues and women's issues.
Author	Wild_Aioli
Upvotes	93
Comments	50
Date	March 12, 2022 12:11 AM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/AntiFeminists
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/antifeminists/comments/tc3x4b/differences_between_mens_issues_and_womens_issues/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/AntiFeminists/differences-between-mens-issues-and-womens-issues.1106693 https://theredarchive.com/post/1106693

Comments

[–]RansomStoddardReddit 36 points37 points38 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 25 points26 points27 points 4 years ago (33 children) | Copy Link

[–]zeerust2000 19 points20 points21 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]tipying_mistakes 5 points6 points7 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]HumanNumber348 -2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 4 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

[+]HumanNumber348 -4 points-3 points-2 points 4 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

What you just described here is toxic femininity. Only women care if a man is tall, muscular, stoic, and rich.

Ffs dude, you have absolutely no idea what these terms mean. The word “masculinity” is not there to describe who is doing the toxicity, it describes who the victims of the toxicity are. If it is indeed only women who care about these traits, it would still be toxic masculinity, as the problem would still be “toxic societal expectations placed on men”, regardless of who exactly are responsible for enforcing them.

Men on the other hand, don't care if another man is tall or short (something that a person can't control anyway), muscular or fat, stoic or a pansy, rich or poor.

Well, I am happy for you that you personally had a blissful childhood and good friends. But it doesn’t really change the fact that men can be absolute cunts to each other sometimes.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

Let me start with this to get it out of the way:

"happy for you that you personally had a blissful childhood and good friends."

Your assumptions and attempt at virtue signalling have no effect on me. I'm a man, not a woman. Save it for someone who gives a shit.

"But it doesn’t really change the fact that men can be absolute cunts to each other sometimes."

That isn't toxic masculinity. That's just being an asshole. Women can be assholes too.

That being said:

"Ffs dude, you have absolutely no idea what these terms mean. The word “masculinity” is not there to describe who is doing the toxicity, it describes who the victims of the toxicity are. If it is indeed only women who care about these traits, it would still be toxic masculinity, as the problem would still be “toxic societal expectations placed on men”, regardless of who exactly are responsible for enforcing them."

Masculinity = who the victims are? Either you're using a poor choice of words, or you are the one who has no idea what you're talking about. Masculinity describes the qualities or attributes regarded as characteristic of men, whether influenced by biology (such as the need to protect and provide and reproduce) or cultural factors (such as the societal expectations as you described above).

Societal expectations = male gender roles. If society's expectations of men are toxic, why is it that men alone are the ones being blamed and shamed and attacked for living up to those expectations? Not just certain men, though, but ALL men. Shouldn't society as a whole be blamed for creating such a toxic culture?

Unless what you're saying is that men are the victims of what expectations society has placed on them, I would wholeheartedly agree with you.

Who is it that creates these societal expectations for men? That would be women, and the victimized men who have fallen in line to the expectations that women have placed on them. Therein lies the problem:

Women expect men to be diligent and righteous and generous and gentlemanly and catering, yet they complain that men aren't "being man enough." When men adapt and change their behavior to what women want, which is big and strong and tough and ambitious and rich and handsome and impressive, then they complain that men are "being toxic."

What women want and what women expect are completely opposite to each other. What they want and expect cannot and does not exist. Women are the ones who are responsible for creating toxic masculinity, not men. Yet, they act as victims to the monster that they created, placing all the blame on men, and taking none of the responsibility for themselves.

This is why men are checking out. We are done trying to please women. We are tired of living up to the expectations of women and being berated for it, and then changing to live up to the new expectations and being berated for it. We are tired of trying to please that which cannot be satisfied. We are tired of trying to give women the impossible.

We don't care what women want anymore. We are now doing what we want, when we want, and how we want. We are done living for the sake of women. We are now living for the sake of ourselves.

If that is what defines us as having "toxic masculinity" then so be it. We will wear this badge of honor with pride.

[+]HumanNumber348 -2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

Your assumptions and attempt at virtue signalling have no effect on me. I'm a man, not a woman. Save it for someone who gives a shit.

“Virtue signaling” lmao, your sexist stereotypes may be negatively affecting your reading comprehension. I was sarcastically mocking your ignorant perspective.

That isn't toxic masculinity. That's just being an asshole. Women can be assholes too.

It can be both. Shouting slurs at black people can be reduced to asshole behavior too. But as a person who cares about improving society, I am interested in finding the root cause of assholery, to minimize the amount of assholery in the world as effectively as possible.

Masculinity = who the victims are? Either you're using a poor choice of words, or you are the one who has no idea what you're talking about.

It’s the first one, I just worded it badly. I was talking about the “masculinity” part in the term “toxic masculinity”. Not the word “masculinity” on its own in general. Toxic masculinity describes toxic expectations that hurt men, not toxic expectations that men are responsible for.

Unless what you're saying is that men are the victims of what expectations society has placed on them, I would wholeheartedly agree with you.

This is exactly what I am saying, actually.

Women expect men to be diligent and righteous and generous and gentlemanly and catering, yet they complain that men aren't "being man enough." When men adapt and change their behavior to what women want, which is big and strong and tough and ambitious and rich and handsome and impressive, then they complain that men are "being toxic."

Is it really that difficult to comprehend that 3,5 billion women might not all agree on what they want and expect? What you have encountered is most likely the ideological split between conservative women (and FDS types), who want men in a provider role, and more left-leaning, feminist women, who thinks expecting men to always be providers is toxic. It’s impossible satisfy everyone, choose whose values you agree with more, or go your own, third, way.

We don't care what women want anymore. We are now doing what we want, when we want, and how we want. We are done living for the sake of women. We are now living for the sake of ourselves.

Good.

If that is what defines us as having "toxic masculinity" then so be it. We will wear this badge of honor with pride.

Dude, ffs, it defines you as the exact opposite: Internalizing toxic masculinity means internalizing the expectations placed on you by society and experiencing pressure to live up to this ideal. You are free from toxic masculinity when you reject society’s standards.

[–]strobro 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Even my most intersectional feminist progressive UC Berkeley ex-friend always dates tall dudes with money and strong jawlines.

It's not society's standards. It's women's standards.

Just like feminists always complain about men's expectations on women; women have expectations for men. Maybe not you, because I'm sure you're so progressive and enlightened, but women in general.

Men want a woman who is pretty, youthful, and can be a mother to his children - this gives you feminine culture of makeup, skincare, looking beautiful, and motherhood.

Women want men to be strong, confident, and to have status and the ability to protect and provide - this gives you masculine culture of stoicism, sports, making money, and being a big manly man.

If you think this expectation is toxic for men, then it's the feminine side that is being toxic by placing the expectation.

Calling it Toxic Masculinity is a shitty victim blame. We know what you're talking about, the term is just terrible and shows a blatant bias. The term was not created to help men, and the books/blogs/professors/influencers you got that term from are not using it because they care about men.

The fact that these types never talk about Toxic Femininity makes it obvious that the intent is to simply paint men as the problem, even if they are the ones suffering, so as to avoid accountability.

[+]HumanNumber348 -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

It's once again the nature/nurture debate. If you believe the current gender roles are an inherent part of humanity, feel free to believe that. Have your fun while the rest of us tries to improve society.

But if you believe sexual attraction and being an asshole to people you aren't sexually attracted to are biological and therefore unchangeable, why do you people here post and complain about the Tinder women who call short men subhuman? Isn't it just natural then?

> the term is just terrible and shows a blatant bias.

I agree the term is absolutely terrible; primarily because people are retards who don't know how to use google instead of intuitively assuming what terms mean in the most uncharitable ways possible. That is unironically our fault, and we should have called it "toxic male gender roles" instead.

> The fact that these types never talk about Toxic Femininity makes it obvious that the intent is to simply paint men as the problem,

We do talk about toxic femininity, it just doesn't have the same name, because history.

[–]strobro 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

But if you believe sexual attraction and being an asshole to people you aren't sexually attracted to are biological and therefore unchangeable, why do you people here post and complain about the Tinder women who call short men subhuman? Isn't it just natural then?

I don't know what you are arguing for. I'm not advocating for gender roles.

I'm just saying men are attracted to certain qualities in women; women are attracted to certain qualities in men. This affects how men and women behave, because we both, largely, want to be attractive to the opposite sex.

I'm not saying this is good or bad; it's just how it is. It is both nature and nurture.

I'm of course speaking generally too, as there are many people who don't fit this mold, most obviously gay men and lesbians - and that's cool.

My point is that the term "Toxic Masculinity" is misandristic and that is why many people reject it. You come here and call us "retards" for having an issue with it, and that's supposed to convince me that you have our best interests in mind?

You admit it's a terrible name - just stop using it. Use the same words the women get, like "unrealistic societal expectations". You'll find the people here will start agreeing with you, because you actually have good points about the standards society place on men, and the effects that can have.

You just can't frame it as a victim blame. We don't disagree with you because we're "retards", jesus. We push back because we can sense your obvious contempt for us.

[+]HumanNumber348 -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

I'm not advocating for gender roles.

I'm not saying this is good or bad; it's just how it is.

You may not be advocating for gender roles, but you are obviously indifferent to them. And indifference doesn’t change society either.

My point is that the term "Toxic Masculinity" is misandristic

I get how it may sound misandrist if you have no idea what the term means and assume the word “masculinity” stands for “male characteristics” and not “society’s idea of male characteristics”. But when it’s used among feminists, who generally do know what the term means, to talk about men’s problems, how is it misandrist?

You admit it's a terrible name - just stop using it. Use the same words the women get, like "unrealistic societal expectations".

I do agree, but it’s kinda difficult to change a term that has been used for several decades already. Also, the reason men got a term while women didn’t was not because of misandry; it’s because toxic societal expectations is a thing men struggle with more than women, so we need to talk about them more often.

[–]strobro1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm not sure if the whole feminist movement got the memo on what you say toxic masculinity means, because the majority of them in my experience have used it to shame me for being masculine, or just male at all.

It is the feminists fault that this happened, because the term very blatantly frames masculinity (read: men) as the problem.

Just imagine if a group of white karens coined a term "Toxic Blackness", and started trying to convince black people that they are experiencing "Toxic Blackness", and that's the root of all their problems.

"It's not your fault! Toxic blackness is society's expectation that you act black, and it's following this expectation that leads to black poverty and crime!"

"Why are you saying the term Toxic Blackness is racist just because a bunch of white people are using it to talk down to black people?? Just because I'm white doesn't mean I can't talk down to you and tell you you're doing blackness wrong!"

If you realize it's a terrible word, maybe start telling your feminist friends to stop using it. Even if you have a point, you're not getting anywhere by framing the victims as the problem, even if it's not intentional.

It's called victim-blaming, and feminists are usually keenly aware of it - unless it's happening to men.

If the literal people the term is meant to help are telling you they hate it, then maybe it's not helping.

If someone realizes it's not helping and they keep using it, well maybe they were never trying to help men in the first place.

I agree we need to talk about these things. If it's a male issue though, maybe center male voices, and stop shoving your condescending terminology down our throats.

[–]HumanNumber3480 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

the term very blatantly frames masculinity (read: men) as the problem.

Masculinity (as in society's idea of masculinity), is indeed the problem. And you are the weird one for treating masculinity and men as synonymous.

Just imagine if a group of white karens coined a term "Toxic Blackness", and started trying to convince black people that they are experiencing "Toxic Blackness", and that's the root of all their problems.

If "toxic blackness" here means society's toxic idea that black people are only good for picking cotton and nothing else, that'd be great.

If the literal people the term is meant to help are telling you they hate it, then maybe it's not helping.

I am not trying to help Reddit antifeminists. I am trying to help men.

maybe center male voices

"Toxic masculinity" was a term was coined by men.

[–]strobro1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]zeerust2000 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

No, masculinity is simply the state of being male. You can't define masculinity by saying "masculinity is when......". Does that mean that men who are not tall, stoic etc are not masculine? That assumption is right there in your "definition" of masculinity. Read it again if you have to. Why are you denying the state of masculinity to men who are short? Don't they have just as much right to be masculine as other men? And why is it "toxic" if a man is expected to be stoic or confident, as your last post suggested? These are good characteristics, right? Isn't it a good thing to be confident? Are you confident? Are you ever stoic? Are things things toxic when you embody them? And if the toxicity cones from others who treat a man badly for not being these things, then the toxicity is not derived from the masculinity is it? The feminist conceptions of masculinity and toxic masculinity are hopelessly contradictory and confused. I hope you are able to see that.

[+]HumanNumber348 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

No, masculinity is simply the state of being male.

No, masculinity is characteristics associated with being male. Look it up in any dictionary; that’s the definition you’ll get.

Does that mean that men who are not tall, stoic etc are not masculine?

Yes, I’d say he’s not masculine, or at least is less masculine than a tall, stoic person. Mind you, as a gender abolitionist, I believe that the whole concept of masculinity is complete bullshit and toxic masculinity on its own, but still, yes, according to how the word is used by broader society, in a purely descriptive sense, a short emotional man would be considered more feminine than if he wasn’t those things.

Why are you denying the state of masculinity to men who are short?

For the same reason I am denying the state of being tall to men who are short.

And why is it "toxic" if a man is expected to be stoic or confident,

First of all because it can very quickly lead to teaching men that showing vulnerability in any form is shameful. And while confidence and stoicism, in healthy doses, are good traits that should be encouraged to both men and women, it’s toxic when people who don’t live up to the ideal are mocked and seen as lesser people.

And if the toxicity cones from others who treat a man badly for not being these things, then the toxicity is not derived from the masculinity is it?

It is, though. There’s a reason why people treat feminine men badly, and it’s because of their warped ideas of what men are supposed to be, i.e. toxic expectations of men, i.e. toxic masculinity.

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