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American Psychological Association, Guidelines for Treating Boys and Men

zuluana · 2023-01-23T21:34:10+00:00

https://www.apa.org/about/policy/boys-men-practice-guidelines.pdf I wanted to share this, because it discusses a lot of these thorny gender issues from a...

zuluana

January 23, 2023

3 upvotes

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Post Information

Title	American Psychological Association, Guidelines for Treating Boys and Men
Author	zuluana
Upvotes	3
Comments	46
Date	January 23, 2023 9:34 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/ExRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/exredpill/comments/10jo73h/american_psychological_association_guidelines_for/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/ExRedPill/american-psychological-association-guidelines-for.1149188 https://theredarchive.com/post/1149188

Comments

[–]lem0ngirl15 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]zuluana[S] 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]lem0ngirl15 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]zuluana[S] 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]lem0ngirl15 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Just the article, I haven’t taken a good enough look at the APA docs. The article I’m having a hard time taking seriously bc it is taking on the perspective of socialization theory which has been disproven.

Yes socialization and culture do matter to a certain extent but it’s way over stated. I think a lot of young girls grow up confused bc of it, I am sure the same could be said too for boys, but I am a woman so it’s easier to speak from my perspective. Im not saying we should go back to traditional gender roles or that gender non conformity is bad. All people should be allowed to be how they naturally are. However I do think there is a majority that pretty much exist within what would be considered male typical or female typical behaviors. For how overstating socialization theory can be harmful you should look at some interviews of detransitioners, a growing population which is pretty alarming.

I think saying that men don’t ask for help or are less emotional bc of “society” is a scapegoat answer. I don’t deny it plays some role and gender roles vary between cultures. However if you look at carol Hoovens research for example, the effects of testosterone cause less access to emotion— whereas the effects of estrogen allow for easier access. It’s pretty confirmed when hearing the experiences of people that have gone hrt. As well, if you look at trans men and trans women independently from one another, they even also follow stereotypical behavior/motivation that correlates to their birth sex- with the trans men (females) being more socially motivated/influenced, and the trans women (males) bring more sexually motivated/influenced. Of course there’s always exceptions though and there’s always many influences, but when things are consistent throughout all cultures like certain things around gender / sexuality then I think the influence is probably somewhat ingrained within our biologies

I think something about female nature does allow for better community building / support networks, that male nature struggles with. So with the increase in technology and isolation in society, they may be affected more. I think men rely on female partners for these things, but if their single then it’s quite difficult. I resent when women get blamed for their isolation of course, as we all have a responsibility to better ourselves independently. But it is true that women have more support networks. Men just don’t help other men as much and it’s unfortunate. I do think this should change.

Similarly there’s been a TON of push for women to enter STEM fields and the gender imbalance in this profession has not changed much. I don’t think it’s bc women are systemically discriminated against, just that we naturally gravitate towards lower paying jobs like education or social work. I say this as something used to work in the arts/education, and now works in tech btw.

On a related note, i do think something that might be helpful to boys would be for a similar push for men to become teachers and over professions where women are over represented. It’s a double standard that this happens for women in stem and not for men in education. I think the problem is deeper than just doing this, but I think it would be a start

[–]zuluana[S] 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Your language is quite binary in suggesting “socialization has been disproven”. That’s simply not true, and in fact, socialization theory has been proven.

In fact, patterns of socialization have been shown to significantly mediate both hormonal and biological circuits of influence.

Hormones may attenuate access to emotions, but it’s not clear if it’s direct or due to the societal effects of their expression.

I’ve read the trans-gender accounts you refer to, and in most cases, when women convert to men, they explain how alienated and judged they feel as men, prior to the full realization of the hormone treatment.

I would say the two - biological theory and socialization theory, are deeply intertwined, and gene-environment interaction plays a large role in learned reaction.

Plus… to suggest socialization theory doesn’t play a role is to discount those who grew up in extreme social conditions - trauma, highly religious households, etc.

Even myself, as a male, I’ve always been expressive, emotional, and in-access of my emotions while maintaining healthy levels of testosterone.

But, after learning about TRP and being influenced by all of this information (socialization) I find myself constantly questioning my behavior, thinking that it’s “societally unacceptable”.

In fact, this learned behavior is the root of toxic masculinity, and it’s perpetuated socially by both men and women.

However healthy masculinity has a stronger biological component, influenced by the hormonal system (among others).

I think both theories are dangerous when presented as binary options, when the reality is, both play a role.

Based on my experience, the APA guidelines, and the breadth of modern research on socialization, I’d say socialization is the bigger factor in toxic masculinity, and biology plays a stronger role in healthy masculinity.

After all, many healthy men are in touch with their emotions. The gap between women and men, for healthy individuals, is much smaller.

[–]lem0ngirl15 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

How do the females that transition to being men know what male isolation/alienation is like before they transition? Or even after they transition? Even post transition they are still females. They are females only assuming what it feels like to experience the world as a male, but it does not make them a male. To transition means that a female will only ever be a masculinized female, and a male a feminized male. It doesn’t mean they are literally changing sex. The cases of detransitioners that I am referring to are here:

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRdayXEOwuMFyH-mBwSdI3L2cu4VLznTf

If you take the time to watch them, it is pretty clear that the general heterosexual male and female experience of this is pretty different, with the female mostly conforming to a social trend / peer influence / fear of sexual objectification. While the males is often motivated by pornography or fear of their own developing sexuality. While the homosexual cohort it is bc they are those outliers that are gender non conforming and falsely believe that means they should transition and conform to traditional gender roles. It a way this cohort is experiencing a new homophobia. It’s spoken in such a binary way bc sex is binary. It doesn’t mean outliers don’t exist and it doesn’t mean everyone adheres to every traditional gender stereotype in every single ways, but there is a majority.

I agree taking any perspective too far can be toxic, but to account everything to socialization alone is just not accurate. I think humans all have a tendency to be toxic whether masculine or feminine. I think labeling male toxicity or unhealthy behavior as purely toxic masculinity does them a disservice, especially young men when trying to improve. It treats all masculinity as toxic, and while I know some social expectations for men to be tough/not cry etc can be difficult, I think that also discounts the real structural issues in place that are resulting to men struggling. Similarly as I don’t think it’s good when TRP scapegoats all women for men’s issues, I don’t think it’s good how the other side can sometimes victim blames men either.

[–]zuluana[S] 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

That actually further proves my point.

Females, transitioning to males, report feeling the same pressures as a biological male before undergoing hormone treatment, but after changing dress and primary appearance.

They feel more isolated than they used to, more pressure to suppress emotions, and less likely to engage in pro-social behavior.

This is more proof that socialization and societal expectations are defining these roles.

Sex is not strictly binary.

https://www.malecontraceptive.org/blog/biological-sex-is-not-binary

The physically observable manifestation of sex is binary most of the time, but sex-specific mental differences have been scientifically shown to be minimal at best.

I disagree that “all humans have a tendency to be toxic”. Instead, I’d say many humans can be toxic. However, I agree that not all toxic behavior is due to “toxic masculinity”.

I also disagree that “real structural issues” are the cause of men not having access to or expressing emotions. Young boys cry. In response, their mothers / fathers neglect them and tell them to carry on. Young girls cry. In response, their mothers and fathers cradle them and reassure them - this is true much of the time.

I was watching a Japanese show recently called “Old Enough”, and the kids are about 3 years old and running errands for their parents. This learned dynamic was strong even at that age, prior to puberty and major hormonal influence.

So, if there are hormone-specific influences on this, it would be largely engaged after 12 years of effective socialization.

[–]lem0ngirl15 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Okay socialization theory is exactly what has caused the surge is trans identified youth. “Trans” is a social construct, not sex/gender. Trans is something someone does, it’s not something that someone is. How can a female report to feel the same pressures as biological males before going on hrt ? they are not males, so they are only imagining what male pressures mean. No amount of hrt or cosmetic procedures changes this. If they feel the same pressures, it’s merely a human experience, and is not proof that they are actually male. Being an emotionally repressed woman does not mean you are a man or know what male experience even is. That perspective literally is just reinforcing gender stereotypes.

I was speaking about adult men and women specifically. It’s true that young boys and girls does have as much different. But when puberty happens the differences between the sexes become more obvious and it just continues so throughout adult life. To pretend that men and women are behaviorally the same just is not true. It doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t have equal rights or expectations for appropriate behaviors but to berate men for having different emotional approaches in life or to pressure women to conform to male typical sexual behavior I don’t think has been helpful or good for either gender or their relationships to one another

[–]zuluana[S] 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

The point is, they feel more of those pressures when they adapt that societal role.

If your argument is that the experiences of the two sexes is so fundamentally different, that a female can never truly know male experience, then that is a belief you have fostered within yourself that I don’t personally share.

It’s a belief that actually goes against the best we have in scientific research on sex and gender studies today, but to each their own.

My only point was, these differences exist before the introduction of the hormonal component. Therefore, the role or hormones in this particular behavioral pattern is questionable.

Even so… the fact that many, many women are less in touch with their emotions than some men shows that hormones and biology are not the full story.

Both socialization and biology play a role in our behavior, but socialization is a root cause of “toxic” masculinity.

That’s why the APA guidelines (written by industry experts) talk about both social and biological influence.

[–]Timely_Jury 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]SweelFor- 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]Timely_Jury -2 points-1 points0 points 3 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]SweelFor- 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]Timely_Jury 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]SweelFor- 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]Timely_Jury -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]SweelFor- 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]Timely_Jury -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]tinyhermione 3 points4 points5 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]SweelFor-5 points 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]zuluana1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Exactly… RP characterizes masculinity and projects the complexity of the human experience onto a single dimension.

Like all conspiracy theories, it’s simple, and that makes it seductive. In a nutshell: “women are biologically incapable of providing the love you seek, and vulnerability will always end in pain.”

So… TRP men stop trying to find healthy, loving relationships, and they play dread game instead… objectifying women and essentially getting revenge on them.

Which, inevitably perpetuates their beliefs as women reject them for being deplorable humans. Ironically, they themselves embody the properties they assign to women - predictably dismissive behavior and an incapacity for true love.

What happens when you take the red pill when you were already living in the real world? It sends you into the matrix.

Now, TRPs need to accept that they’re being reductive and cherry picking studies to support their conviction. Realize it’s all a defense mechanism, and the entire movement is paradoxically non-“masculine”.

It’s not stoic. It’s the rejection of suffering for a false reality. Women want real men who don’t need to rationalize away rejection with reductive logic.

People want real people who will embrace the complexity of reality including a very small set of truths we can glean from the TRP movement.

[–]Timely_Jury1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]zuluana1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

RP is the belief that all women are biologically like that. So, if you believe that, then I’d certainly say you’re a bit RP.

The point is, both women and men are generally born capable of the same emotional reactions.

However, it is 100% true that some cultures punish men for certain types or emotional expression.

That is the origin of toxic masculinity, and it’s reinforced by both men, women, and societal communication like your own.

In my experience (and many others) women will be loving and supportive and more attracted to a man who cries over a dead pet.

To be honest, they may have laughed because it was a crow, simply because it’s a little unusual, and that makes it a bit funny.

But, it’s still really sweet. In fact, one of my sisters is very much attracted to sentimental, cute guys, and another sister is very much unattracted to that type.

Much of it has to do with socialization, personal experience, and preference. If your wife and her friends don’t treat you the way you want to be treated, then I’d look to greener pastures before taking the RP belief that no green pastures exist.

[–]Timely_Jury1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]zuluana1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Timely_Jury1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]zuluana1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Lol as if anything else we’ve been talking about is “scientifically valid”. Our brain’s models of reality are literally built from anecdotes.

A poll of 5k people is more “scientific” than you and I talking about our random off-hand experiences.

More of the comments are positive experiences. You are looking for confirmation if your own biased beliefs, because you’ve clearly already decided that vulnerability = bad.

Reddit is extremely biased, especially when it comes to men. Most guys on here are single and have trouble dating for various reasons. That’s why RP is so strong here, not in real life.

Good luck my friend, but I guarantee you will lose more good friendships by not being genuine than you will by expressing your feelings and needs in a healthy way.

In fact, you’ll bottle it up, but eventually it’ll come out, and at that point it’ll be way too much, and you’ll just start the cycle over again. That’s what most men do, and that’s the type of “vulnerability” that scares women away.

[–]Timely_Jury1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]zuluana1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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