~ archived since 2018 ~

Dworkin nailed it

israelregardie · 2022-02-23T19:32:00+00:00

«This dominance of men by women is experienced by the men as real—emotionally real, sexually real, psychologically real; it emerges as the reason for the...

israelregardie

February 23, 2022

6 upvotes

/r/ExRedPill

Download the post

Want to save the post for offline use on your device? Choose one of the download options below:

PDF TXT EPUB

Support the archive

Everything here was supposed to disappear. Banned subreddits, deleted communities, cancelled blogs — much of what is archived here survives nowhere else.

It stays free — no paywall, no account — for the next man who comes looking, the way it was free for you.

I pay for the servers, the storage and the bandwidth myself. If you want this record still standing in ten years, become one of the people who keeps it online.

Support the archive

Post Information

Title	Dworkin nailed it
Author	israelregardie
Upvotes	6
Comments	26
Date	February 23, 2022 7:32 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/ExRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/exredpill/comments/szprwr/dworkin_nailed_it/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/ExRedPill/dworkin-nailed-it.1103266 https://theredarchive.com/post/1103266

Comments

[–]Superfluous_Toast 5 points6 points7 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]xvszero 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]wowweeewhoknows 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]IcyOwl2333 -2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]heytheredelilah91 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]IcyOwl2333 -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]wowweeewhoknows 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]israelregardie[S] 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]PutsWomenOnPedestal -4 points-3 points-2 points 4 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mari_Mari_Mariana 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

You are reading what you want to read from this. You cannot simplify it as "men want sex and women don't".

Her point of the perceived power can be noticed on incels. They aren't mad because they don't have sex, they are mad because women have the power to choose who has access to it. If the problem was the sexual act itself, an incel would stop being an incel if he manages to pay for sex (illegal in some countries, not in others), but the sex worker is perceived as someone who had willingly sacrifice the power to directly deny sex and instead decided to put a price on it (reality is more nuanced than that, but incels can't see it).

Remember that the only organ in the human body responsible exclusively to give pleasure is from the female anatomy. It's disingenous to believe that the people who can anatomically get the most from sex somehow would naturally want it less.

[–]PutsWomenOnPedestal -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mari_Mari_Mariana 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

The thing is, the supply vs demand debate and the "men want sex and women don't" are points based on different premises and you are treating them as being the same. One relates to desire to have sex with people. The other is about how many people are they willing to have sex with it.

The idea of men wanting more sex than women is absurd and is a claim I can't accept without further evidence. I can agree if you say that both sexes have an equal desire for pleasurable sex and for men virtually any sex is pleasurable while women often don't orgasm.

The supply vs demand question is a social problem, not biological. In casual sex, men orgasm 90% of the time and women do in less than half. Add the bigger risk of violence and it becomes understandable that choosing a good partner matters more for women than for men. Men have zero risk, women have many on the act plus the social stigma. This supply vs demand point is more a consequence of how we treat sex as a society than with desire.

[–]PutsWomenOnPedestal 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The thing is, the supply vs demand debate and the "men want sex and women don't" are points based on different premises and you are treating them as being the same.

Thanks for the nuanced reply. You have a raised a subtle distinction. I need to think about this for a bit before I can respond.

The idea of men wanting more sex than women is absurd

Really? I thought the idea of women being gatekeepers of sex was common.

for men virtually any sex is pleasurable while women often don't orgasm.

Doesn't this naturally lead to lower interest from women? Saying that both genders want an enjoyable ideal is a theoretical statement that doesn't say much.

The supply vs demand question is a social problem, not biological... more a consequence of how we treat sex as a society than with desire.

I'm not so sure. There is a drastic difference in parental investment between genders which exerts a selection pressure. Even if all the valid social factors (risk of violence, stigma, etc.) were removed the risk is still quite high due to risk of unwanted pregnancy and STD. It is not so easy to separate the social from the biological factors.

[–]Yupperdoodledoo 5 points6 points7 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]PutsWomenOnPedestal -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]Yupperdoodledoo -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]PutsWomenOnPedestal 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Yupperdoodledoo 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]PutsWomenOnPedestal 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Yupperdoodledoo 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]PutsWomenOnPedestal 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

a few women (friends) who didn’t want sex often, and they were women who’s partners were bad in bed or treated them badly

So the man is to blame for the woman's lack of interest. Got it.

many of us have higher sex drives than our partners

So, are these women bad in bed or treat their partners badly? The same logic should apply both ways, right? Or, are only men to blame? Why not simply acknowledge women's lack of interest as inherent to their biology, instead of gas-lighting or scapegoating men for it. You certainly have no problem doing that when the roles are reversed.

Edit: Most women in this sub I have talked to seemed to agree that on average women have a lower libido than men. This is not controversial. I just find it depressing that you are blaming men for what is likely a natural distribution of biology

[–]WillyDanflous 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]PutsWomenOnPedestal -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Consider this: Women have for millennia been shamed by patriarchal society and religion (which is really just a reflection of the dominant morality of a society) for exercising any sexual agency and for expressing sexual desire. This was society’s way of policing women’s sexual behavior so that husbands could be certain that their wives were only bearing their children so that property inheritance remained in the bloodline. You’ll see all sorts of laws and social norms that developed in response to fear of cuckoldry, because of the anxiety over inheritance. In addition to women legally belonging to their fathers and then husbands, there were actually scientists of the fairly recent past who claimed that women could not and did not experience sexual pleasure and I suspect that many men and women fully believed them. Even today, women are made by parents, peers, religion, etc. to feel like having sex makes them dirty and that they better not have too much of it before marriage or they’ll be seen as “used goods.”

Now, feminism attempts to counteract this type of sexist messaging, and birth control/abortion access makes it less likely that every time a woman has sex she will get pregnant (less likely but sex is never risk free), but feminism and birth control are relatively new phenomena when you consider how long human society has been around.

[–]PutsWomenOnPedestal 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I can't disagree with your historical summary. What is not clear is how much of the above is patriarchal projection of male behavior on women vs. what women actually want. For example, almost everything RP claims about women is projection. Is it not likely that all the shaming of women in conservative societies (including my own culture) is just massive projection and mistrust of other men rather than the need to stop women from exploring pleasure? After all who but a man can know how much of a sleazeball another man can be.

scientists of the fairly recent past who claimed that women could not and did not experience sexual pleasure and I suspect that many men and women fully believed them.

My emphasis. There is something odd here. Why would women believe a man about her own (lack of) sexuality rather than what she feels? Are women not sure what they want? After all no one can convince men of their incapacity to experience pleasure since their own experience contradicts it. Why would Dworkin who is a woman, make a statement about women's disinterest in sex, if it wasn't a common reality for women.

It seems to me that the present modern narrative about women's sexuality is just continuation of making women fit a mold to suit a particular agenda. The early conservative agenda was that women can't experience pleasure. The modern liberal agenda is that women can't get enough of it. Why is the modern narrative any more convincing than the old one?