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On Jacques Derrida, Deconstruction, and its influence on Judith Butler and feminism.

Egalitarianwhistle

March 16, 2020
22 upvotes
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
https://newdiscourses.com/2020/03/reconstructing-derrida-poetics-nonsense-rule-cool/
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Post Information
Title On Jacques Derrida, Deconstruction, and its influence on Judith Butler and feminism.
Author

Egalitarianwhistle

Upvotes 22
Comments 23
Date March 16, 2020 12:17 AM UTC
(6 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/fjbl6f/on_jacques_derrida_deconstruction_and_its/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/on-jacques-derrida-deconstruction-and-its.1063827
https://theredarchive.com/post/1063827
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Comments

[–]Egalitarianwhistle[S] 10 points11 points12 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"This inherent intellectual weakness is what makes these activities inherently anti-academic. The rejection of the intellectual standards established since the symposia of Ancient Greece has become steadily more marked, until we reach today’s tactics of simply refusing to allow contrary opinions to be stated in the first place."

[–]rotmeat 6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for the share. I didn't go to an elite university, but what the author talks about rings true to what I saw at my mediocre local gender studies department.

I enrolled as a gender studies major right off the bat, thinking I'd be learning all this cool new science about how sex and gender worked in the real world, but instead, it was just bad.

I don't simply mean that the stuff they talked about, as often as not, was provably untrue (which should, on its own, be disqualifying for any academic discipline); I mean that it wasn't even particularly progressive.

I mean, science discriminates against women because logic and evidence aren't "women's ways of knowing"? Did Cixous just say that women can't logic? Or that the reason why there are no matriarchies is because women are just naturally more egalitarian than men, so whenever they have power, they always share it equally - not only is that gender essentialist, it's also benevolently sexist.

I found that you could read Butler if you read super, super carefully, and bore in mind that, like an dim version of Tolkien's Ents, she would take a very long time to say something, and would never say something unless she had very little to say. Most of her queer theory I'm pretty confident you can sum up as "women can enjoy masculine things and men can enjoy feminine things", which was already a well-established cornerstone of liberal thought and didn't seem to add anything.

Most of the other things I "learned" about were similarly obvious inasmuch as they were true, and false inasmuch as they were not: that men and women sometimes had different perceptions of society (or else that an understanding of gender was literally a product of a doubled X chromosome); that women were often afraid of being raped (or else that society widely encouraged and supported rape specifically against women); or that gender socialization began even before birth with the choosing of names and such (or else the author literally meant that you could change someone's sex by what color you painted the nursery).

At first, I was disappointed.

But then, I realized that even if it was all bullshit, no one would take your criticisms seriously unless you'd put in your time and worked your way up the status hierarchy by getting a degree, then a graduate degree, then a respectable position, and that this would all work because hey, academia is all about freedom of inquiry, so as long as you could support your arguments, you'd be safe, right?

Boy, do I feel stupid.

[–]Egalitarianwhistle[S] 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That sounds like a disappointing experience. Have you read any Robin Diangelo? She's considered the most blatant insane Wokester.

I agree that it's bad. It also looks like they were just wrong about gender and don't know how to science.

[–]Strikester101 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

I mean, science discriminates against women because logic and evidence aren't "women's ways of knowing"? Did Cixous just say that women can't logic?

I'm not familiar with gender studies, but what? Are you sure they said exactly that? Playing devil's advocate, it could be possible they are saying that women learn differently from men or that logic and science is treated as a "male domain". At the same time, if they did say that, why are they teaching this?

Or that the reason why there are no matriarchies is because women are just naturally more egalitarian than men, so whenever they have power, they always share it equally - not only is that gender essentialist, it's also benevolently sexist.

Funny thing is, there's a social paradox I found. If "feminine traits" like agreeableness, empathy, emotional intelligence, submissiveness, e.t.c are a product of patriarchal norms, then it becomes difficult to determine whether these traits are "feminine traits". As a result, it's hard to know how a matriarchal society would look like if the situation is reversed.

[–]Oncefa2left-wing male advocate 5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Feminists pick and choose which gender norms they think are caused by gender and which ones are caused by the imaginary patriarchy.

In fact I don't even think many of these things are gender norms as much as they are convenient excuses made up to defend a flawed ideology.

[–]Strikester101 5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, there are so many times I feel like they are making shit up as some issues come up that it makes me think they haven't thought everything through.

Take the example of a girl and boy defying gender norms. For some reason, a boy breaking gender norms is less socially acceptable than a girl breaking gender norms. They concluded that it's because patriarchies don't want boys to ve "feminine".

The problem with this line of thinking is how the patriarchy (a power structure for men) is more punishing towards the boy than the girl (the "oppressed" class who, in this case, is gaining power).

PS you may need to look at this. https://www.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/fjj5iz/male_supremacy_splcs_views_on_ncfm_as_well_as/

[–]AskingToFeminists 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm not familiar with gender studies, but what? Are you sure they said exactly that?

Count yourself blessed to not be familiar with it. But yes, they do say that. And many, many other things.

Honestly, there is not much social sciences left worth reading. The rejection of objectivity and empiricism has become a standard.

Do you know what an autoethnography is? An ethnography is when you observe a population and report on it. And the "auto" in front of it means that the observed population is yourself. Basically, you write your diary and call it "scientific research". And it gets published. This is the enshrine ment of anecdote as equivalent to truth. And that is not the worst part of it all. By far.

Have you heard of the grievance studies papers? The most interesting part isn't even what they managed to publish or not, but rather the comments by the reviewers when they applied for peer review.

[–]AskingToFeminists 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Edit : sorry, double post. Laggy internet on my phone.

[–]rotmeat 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

So, my comment about women allegedly not being able to logic is a reference to Helene Cixous, a major feminist thinker.

Part of her shtick was that formal academic writing (as a style) was anti-female, and her own major works were written as poetry instead, so interpretation is definitely an issue to consider.

That said, what she wrote was that women need to "write from the body", that structure and logic were inherently anti-feminine (because women have vaginal secretions which are fluid, but men have erections which are stiff), and that language (hemmed in as it is by requiring the speaker to commit to a definite meaning) itself had been designed by men as anti-feminine. (Wikipedia has a decent introduction to Écriture féminine, which is a central concept of hers).

Now, maybe what she really meant was something like the platitude "listen to your instincts instead of what people tell you", but it doesn't really come across that way - and for my professor's part, she went a step further to ask why women must write with pens, which are both spelled like penis, and even are shaped like a penis, and why couldn't a writing instrument be shaped like a vagina? (It seemed obvious to me that a vulva-shaped writing instrument would be very difficult to use, but whatever).

[–]C0dey 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

and for my professor's part, she went a step further to ask why women must write with pens, which are both spelled like penis, and even are shaped like a penis, and why couldn't a writing instrument be shaped like a vagina? (It seemed obvious to me that a vulva-shaped writing instrument would be very difficult to use, but whatever).

Jesus tap dancing Christ, seriously? How the hell did you manage to keep yourself from not throwing your pen at that imbecile? Better yet, how the fuck did someone so dumb manage to get a teaching position at a uni?

[–]NtWEdelweiss 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

She must be stoked to learn that some people wrote with feathers during medieval which in my opinion are more comparable with vaginas due to the wings.

[–]AskingToFeminists 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

and why couldn't a writing instrument be shaped like a vagina? (It seemed obvious to me that a vulva-shaped writing instrument would be very difficult to use, but whatever).

There once was a time where 3d printing wasn't a thing. At such a time, to contain ink, the easiest thing to make was some kind of tube. And so we made tubes with ink in it. And the goal was to move it with the hand, so it needed to be pinched between the thumb and another finger, and, for support, rest on the hand. And so the container for those tubes with ink was another tube, more elongated. And thus the pen was born. Out of material constraints of the real world. But what do feminists know about material constraints? It's not shaped like a vagina because oppression. Which shows just how much credibility we have to give to their concept of women having been oppressed.

[–]Kuato2012left-wing male advocate 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Great read. I know it's a long one, but I encourage anyone here just to skim the comments to dive into the article.

[–]Melthengylf 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

I liked very much how he described Derrida. The problems of translation are quite accurate.

[–]AskingToFeminists 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

The problem may not be of translation. The problem is what he was trying to say. It might be an intellectual curiosity, but it is not worth much. I mean... Equating refugees and computers... I'm French, so I see where that comes from... And it is laughable. The issue is not the translation. If the translation made it gibberish, you won out.

[–]Melthengylf 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Yeahh. I haven't really understood Derrida. I do know -and believe I understand- Deleuze, Foucault, Lacan, Bourdieu, Sartre, Camus, Simondon, Levi-Strauss and Poulantzas. I do like french intelectuals quite a bit, but Derrida I have never understood. I always loved french structuralism and post-structuralism (I don't like postmoderns so much), I love how they think about social structures.

[–]AskingToFeminists 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I'm generally not a big fan of philosophy. I tend to find it inferior to what science has to offer. Philosophy proposes an idea. Science proposes an idea, and tests it.

[–]Melthengylf 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Well, I'm a phycisist. But I like science and philosophy both, I do not find them antagonizing

[–]AskingToFeminists 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I'm à physicist too, and I don't find them antagonizing, but if I have the choice between reading science and philosophy, I know what I will do.

[–]Melthengylf 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Cooool, I didn't know you were a physicist! I'm in theoretical biophysics. What area are you in? I also prefer science to philosophy if they conflict.

[–]AskingToFeminists 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm in experimental physics, although I'd rather not share too much personal detail. Those fields are rather small.

[–]Melthengylf 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Sure!!! Np

[–]XYZRGBCMYK 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Derrida may have a good person to those who knew him but his thinking was always utter trash. Judith Butler is not much better.

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