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http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/q8rxi/should_a_false_accusation_of_rape_be_a_serious/

SkyrimNewb

February 28, 2012

22 upvotes

/r/MensRights

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/q8rxi/should_a_false_accusation_of_rape_be_a_serious/

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Post Information

Title	http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/q8rxi/should_a_false_accusation_of_rape_be_a_serious/
Author	SkyrimNewb
Upvotes	22
Comments	50
Date	February 28, 2012 5:16 AM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/q9aue/httpwwwredditcomraskredditcommentsq8rxishould_a/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/8rxishould_a_false_accusation_of_rape_be_a_serious.1026951 https://theredarchive.com/post/1026951

Comments

[–]HolyCounsel 9 points10 points11 points 14 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]whatisthefire 5 points6 points7 points 14 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]Lecks 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]HolyCounsel 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]whatisthefire 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]HolyCounsel 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Brand new account, dismissive attitude, and stupid enough to prove my point against your own - I am marking you as a troll.

If not, then think about the fact that rape is a spectrum. The majority of rapes are not strange men leaping out of bushes and taking a woman with brutal force, but that is the mark you set when you say there aren't many worse crimes.

What about lack of consent due to intoxication? Someone taking advantage of you while blackout drunk is a life-shattering horror? Or a woman who was pressured into sex by an otherwise acceptable partner, but was unable to verbally or physically manifest her lack of consent? Is her suffering so much more than from anything else other than torture and murder?

Secondly, and I repeat, just because rape can be horrible does not mean that false accusations (and other crimes) cannot do the same sort of psychological damage. Again there is a spectrum - my own accusation only cost me a night in jail and the abandonment by every woman I considered a friend (which they obviously weren't), so I don't put myself in the same category as other men who have had far worse befall them. And when the end result turns up as suicide, I have little patience with idiots like you who want to turn these discussions into mini Oppression Olympics.

It is attitudes like yours that bring out shining examples of humanity such as this:

"I would rather send thousands of innocent men to jail for rape then allow one woman to go to jail for being raped."

[–]OThomson 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Lecks 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]HolyCounsel -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]hardwarequestions 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]Darkling5499 5 points6 points7 points 14 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]GimmeSomeSugar -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]loony636 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

That's the point I made last time this discussion came up. Apparently not very well received here.

Basically the idea I proposed was that the same evidence that causes a rape case to fail is the same evidence that is used in a false accusation trial. E.g., lack of physical evidence, lack of eye witnesses, etc. That means people who don't have an open and shut case are very much more likely not to report rapes, and that's far worse than the satisfaction in throwing the book at a false accuser.

I also made the point that people who are more likely not to access the CJS because they fear their claims wont be taken seriously, like, for instance, men, will feel even less inclined to report rapes, since any holes in their case (and indeed the failure of conviction itself) would be used as evidence of their false accusation.

This was the response:

Truly massive sentences SHOULD be what they face, and I don't give a shit, at all, how many 'victims' that scares off. Or are you contending its better to incarcerate men wholesale than make a woman think twice before calling it rape.

I also made the comment that if, according to the logic of r/MR, women are able to abuse the CJS to their advantage, then surely they could just weasel out of any false accusation case that came their way.

False accusations can be horrible, but a better approach is a more balanced handling of the issue from the police and prosecutors. False accusations cannot, by their very definition, stand up in a court (being that they are false, and you could never prove that something false is true beyond all reasonable doubt). Don't release the names of victims or the accused until after the trial, and give more balance and direction to the jury in making their decision.

Slamming the minority of people who abuse the system is likely to cause more harm than good across the board. No one denies that falsely accusing someone of a crime, any crime, is likely to destroy their lives, and that the sex offenders registry makes that even worse, but the solution lies as much in the process as it does in the result.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]loony636 -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You are, of course, correct in highlighting the standard of proof. Partly the answer is that it would be mens rea through inference; aside from the rare cases where one admitted to lying to the police (and would therefore very likely plead guilty), the prosecution would prove that the lack of evidence (or existence of conflicting evidence) was only explainable by a false report, and then construct some reason which would constitute the motive for the crime. I'm sure you can imagine a large number of reasons why one might try to wrong another (e.g. spite, jealousy, regret, fear), and the prosecution could certainly pick one that fit the facts.

The main part of the answer, of course, is that potential reporters of rape don't weigh up the prospect of losing on a standard of reasonable doubt; they, as do the media and politicians, see the sentences, and massive, punitive sentences will, undoubtedly, deter people from reporting, especially if they were afraid of doing it in the first place.

Also, I'm surprised /r/MR is championing the process of the legal system. Surely its a failure of that standard that requires false reporters to be punished, and hence not something you would immediately go back to as a source of punishment.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

the prosecution would prove that the lack of evidence (or existence of conflicting evidence) was only explainable by a false report, and then construct some reason which would constitute the motive for the crime.

I'm not sure how the prosecution would prove that lack of evidence is itself evidence of anything, let alone evidence of a false report. I suppose they could do so with corroborating evidence, but that would invalidate our premise.

The main part of the answer, of course, is that potential reporters of rape don't weigh up the prospect of losing on a standard of reasonable doubt; they, as do the media and politicians, see the sentences, and massive, punitive sentences will, undoubtedly, deter people from reporting, especially if they were afraid of doing it in the first place.

I agree that this is a problem. However, we need to consider those who may be falsely accused. Perhaps an ad campaign featuring the differences between a false and a legitimate accusation would help. It could be similar to those showing men what consent is and is not.

Also, I'm surprised /r/MR is championing the process of the legal system. Surely its a failure of that standard that requires false reporters to be punished, and hence not something you would immediately go back to as a source of punishment.

I don't follow the logic here. The failure of the criminal justice system in rape cases stems from the definition of rape: whether or not a crime occurred is determined solely from the victim's state of mind during the incident, which is difficult/impossible to prove one way or the other without corroborating evidence. I don't perceive this as an indictment on the entire system, thus I don't see how an objection to how the system handles rape cases is an objection to how the system handles false police reports.

[–]hardwarequestions 5 points6 points7 points 14 years ago* (30 children) | Copy Link

[–]Amunium 6 points7 points8 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]Darkling5499 5 points6 points7 points 14 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Darkling5499 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Darkling5499 -2 points-1 points0 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]hardwarequestions -2 points-1 points0 points 14 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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[–]hardwarequestions -2 points-1 points0 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

i have no problem with you. honestly. i just think something in your past or some personal experience causes you to overreact when discussing rape and false accusations. perhaps with the added anonymity of the internet your own issues with rape were allowed to come out in ways that just happened to be vitriolic. and please, concede that you became extremely vitriolic to people who merely had an opposing viewpoint of yours. other than that, for all i know, you could be the nicest person in the world.

rather it be through pm than here

i really don't have too much else to say. really, i never had much to say, i just felt the need to point out your example. you seemed like someone who was an otherwise normal person, but was incapable of understanding the fallout from being falsely accused of rape is high enough to warrant considering of criminal action against those proven to be lying about it. to me, you're the type of person men's rights supporters need to fear the most. you have no vested interest in trolling us or being against us, but you act with ignorance against honest victims because you don't want to inconvenience other possible victims. that seems tragic to me.

I was told to avoid you

you probably were. people who want to discredit the beliefs of the men's rights movement have a tough time winning when people actually find out what we support, so it's better for them to encourage others to dismiss us entirely, rather than have a discussion.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]hardwarequestions -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link