A Question

CorDra2011 · 2014-04-28T06:12:38+00:00

To get to my question, why not egalitarianism?

Many MRAs define themselves as egalitarians and MRAs.

I don't feel at all oppressed

This is important. We do not use an oppressed-narrative!

All I have seen from this subreddit is anti-feminism opinions.

And for good reasons. We are not against women's rights, we are against feminist ideology.

Yes females have privilege but undeniably men do as well.

Not by feminist definition. In a patriarchy only the "oppressing" group of power, that is men, can have privilege. Male privilege.

Women can't have privilege, because they are not the group with power. If they have anything that someone would call "female privilege" it is "benevolent sexism" according to feminism.

For example if someone says "it was female privilege that women didn't have to fight in world war I and II", a feminist would answer "No, that is not female privilege, that is benevolent sexism. Because women are seen as weak they weren't allowed to fight in these wars. That may seem like a privilege, but it is sexism."

ThePigmanAgain · 2014-04-28T09:32:29+00:00

Concerned, huh?

itscirony · 2014-04-28T07:48:19+00:00

I follow this sub but post rarely, largely for reasons you mentioned.

I agree with a lot of points the MRM make, I also agree that some feminist groups act as hate groups. I've been banned from /r/feminism due to having a different view from some people and that encourages the latter belief.

So I look at this group and I see a place where you're not banned for having an opinion and I like that. But I don't participate anymore as all I tend to see is regurgitated infographs about male inequality, sarcastic male privelige and on occassion hate speech against feminism.

I started off passionate and active. Now I'm disillusioned and disappointed. This sub had the potential to be a safe haven where we accept different opinions and actively debate and refine our beliefs. Now I know that many subbed redditors believe not banning people is the equivalent to accepting opinion.

That said I don't think it justifies how this sub is treated on reddit (often as a worse than SRS scapegoat - banned from /r/bestof).

Others are trying /r/FeMRADebates is an example.

For me, I'm subscribed because every now and then a good point is made.

Kuonji · 2014-04-28T05:50:03+00:00

I think you need to read the sidebar. Notably this and this

AlphaWookie · 2014-04-28T05:57:28+00:00

OP read this

WomenAreAlwaysRigh · 2014-04-28T07:19:54+00:00

I prefer the rabid tone of this sub.

__Ephemeral · 2014-04-28T09:56:42+00:00

Please keep in mind when you ask a question, only the most vocal will respond~
Often the more quieter voices have more softer views and opinions but are often not heard, skewing the perception of a certain group~
Don't expect the answers you recieve to be the answer that the majority of the group will have~

2014-04-28T23:36:46+00:00

"The first being that while some of you are well meaning egalitarians like most feminists a lot of you use the men's rights movement as an excuse to further your personal beliefs that feminists are inherently bad..."

You are gravely mistaken if you think this sub lends shelter to individuals who have nothing better to do than bash feminism. While some frequent this place, everyone else is looking for simple validation for their struggles and spreading awareness of issues pertaining to men.

But that doesn't mean feminism is free of flaws. And for me, those flaws became apparent the minute three of them decided that my trauma and past negative experiences at the hands of females along with males didn't matter while invoking my "White Male Privilege" as an excuse to obfuscate my opinion and viewpoints.

You know what I got for sharing these views with male victims of abuse and men's rights advocates outside of feminism? Treated like an individual who had a story to tell and a problem to flag when it comes to the treatment of male survivors of abuse across the spectrum.

Now if you were in my shoes, who would you choose as a shoulder to lean on? The one with spiked attachments or the shoulder itself on the other side?

There's your answer as to why I'm here. I didn't come into Mens Rights. Mens Rights did it by accepting me. Even if the movement has drawbacks (which I'm vocal about as well, don't think I'm a blind follower) I will never forget the fact they treated me like a human being and not some over-privileged king at the top by virtue of my penis benefiting from the oppression of women everywhere.

OP: "women are idiots"

I don't disagree there are individuals here spouting that drivel. But they're downvoted into the abyss, hardly lent credence as you think.

And to address this assertion of yours further, are you talking about the posts about women in the news who commit serious crimes of abuse against men and boys? They're there because it outlines a double-standard: Men receive harsher sentences, ON AVERAGE, compared to women when found guilty of crimes of this magnitude. Hardly anybody has the guts to point this out in the media and mainstream society though that is changing. Especially when talking about the sexual, physical, and mental abuse of kids, the mentally challenged, seniors, and other adults. So somebody has to do it. And until the mainstream finally gets it in their head that we have a serious issue, it will never stop in spit of your misgivings. Would you agree that this takes away their agency, their autonomy as human beings? That's what feminism claims to fight for, isn't it? Well, that's what the context of those posts are. Individuals are made up of pros and cons. Unfortunately, the pros of women are only given consideration and the cons are "Benevolent Sexism". This fulfills the stereotype of "Women are weak, men are strong" that feminism claims to address.

That's the short answer. I'll leave others to offer you further specificity.

OP: "The second being what I personally perceive as a glorification of what I honestly think is rather silly."

What is silly? That men have rights and issues? You'll have to specify further what you find silly because all I see here are people who have an issue and nobody out there is addressing it except for what is deemed an underground minority (that's putting it politely. Others prefer labeling it a "misogynistic undercurrent that wants to drag women back into the kitchen, barefoot and pregnant")

OP: "To get to my question, why not egalitarianism?"

Why not? I agree. I'm all for egalitarianism. I consider myself an eglitariasm. But you know what? I go where people need help. Men need help because nobody wants to tackle their needs. Feminism preaches that but, if you look at what it does, that could be further from the truth.

More specifically, male victims of female abuse. I am always appalled whenever feminism gets on its high horse and lectures everyone about how, without their language, male victims wouldn't have found the words for what happened to them.

They're only partially right. Yes, we have the terminology. But the source of it comes from gynocentric absolutes in the form of laws like The Duluth Model of Domestic Violence and Mary Koss's research methods that erased tons of male victims from official existence. All the while advancing the theory that men are the major perpetrators and women the primary victims. Thus, again, sucking on the teat of the "Women are weak and men are strong" stereotype for nourishment.

They screwed up royally. So, in a sense, I'm anti-feminist in that arena. There's nothing wrong with it as feminism is not women. It's an ideology.

So no, feminism the ideology is NOT the go to movement for supports in that arena.

Granted, there are feminists who do have an ear and empathy for male victims. But, they're not considered feminists by the overall movement. Express even a modicum of sympathy and put it into action, you can say good-bye to your place in the movement. For further proof, see what happened to Erin Prizzy, Christina Hoff-Sommers and Warren Farell. Even some posters here were former feminists that found a problem with areas in the movement, expressed it and were driven out.

There can be egilatarism. But not with feminism as it currently stands. Only with feminists who have rebelled against the tropes, theories and methodology that excluded men from the discussion in the first place. And there are plenty here as well.

To conclude, let me also touch on this need to address injustice against women. You already have a movement for that: Feminism as its practiced now. They're doing a damn good job of it.

Men need their issues addressed and feminism as practiced currently is NOT the movement unless you want them to feel guilty, subtly, the rest of their lives because a certain segment of the population made it difficult for women to get ahead in society.

The Men's Rights movement does that in places where feminism AS PRACTICED NOW failed. If there are feminists out there with empathy for men and looking to ensure both genders are treated like individuals, they're welcome to climb aboard.

That's where I stand.

guywithaccount · 2014-04-29T02:34:47+00:00

"Hi. My mind is closed, but I'm going to pretend that it is open. I have heard the worst that feminism has to say about you, and will assume it to be true by default unless you can prove otherwise. Remember, my mind is closed. When you attempt to explain your position, I will rebut you by repeating popular feminist lies."

Yeah, no. Downvoting OP.

MRSPArchiver · 2014-04-28T05:38:11+00:00

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rapiertwit · 2014-04-28T14:38:06+00:00

I consider myself an egalitarian, not a feminist nor an MRA. I'd prefer to operate in the context of a single transformative movement that sought mutually beneficial changes and solutions. But dominant ideological elements in modern feminism refuse even to contemplate the idea that men can suffer from systematic injustice, or when forced to confront concrete examples, offer this tired old cliche: "Yeah, well Patriarchy hurts men too." Which is simply retreating behind terminology instead of engaging the question. With feminism entrenched in progressive circles, and traditionalist circles opposed to social progress generally, an MRM is necessary. If you formed a big-tent egalitarian movement, it would only separate into feminist and nonfeminist camps anyway.

My hope is that when men's issues have gained some traction, there will form a unified egalitarian movement, and what we now call "feminism" and "the MRM" will remain only as marginalized reservoirs of radicalism into which the bitter and the bigoted drain off.

DavidByron2 · 2014-04-28T06:31:13+00:00

Feminism is a hate movement.

If you disagree please explain why feminists lobby for anti-male discrimination in law.

Yes females have privilege but undeniably men do as well

Like what?

why don't you guys post stuff about injustices to women

Like what?

You see you really haven't thought anything you are saying through at all have you? So really that's your answer. Your ideas are confused because you never thought about them and they're just wrong and indefensible.

Title	A Question
Author	CorDra2011
Upvotes	4
Comments	111
Date	April 28, 2014 5:37 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/245z0h/a-question/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/a-question.1616671 https://theredarchive.com/post/1616671

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