Abortion & Child Support, please attack my statement (I'd like to battle test the logic behind it)

tomek77 · 2009-07-08T13:09:18+00:00

In order to battle-test your argument :) rather than abortion, a better comparison might be with safe-haven laws (laws that allow women to drop a baby at a hospital if she doesn't feel like taking responsibility).

2009-07-08T15:58:28+00:00

Fuck you, statement!

2009-07-08T20:39:19+00:00

If the father does not have the right to choose an abortion, does he have the right to give the child up for adoption, or does this only belong to the mother?

pandemik · 2009-07-10T17:10:06+00:00

How about: whoever supports the child (man or woman) get child support from the other party (man or woman)

Tronus · 2009-07-08T16:05:44+00:00

I completely agree. If men have zero rights in the decision regarding their child, then they should have zero accountability if they so choose.

sabliss · 2009-07-10T19:30:30+00:00

I personally would like to see child support worked very differently than it is now. My thought being, basically, you pay for the child when the child is in your custody. You are, after all, getting the blessings of having a child during that time, so you also get the responsibility. Certain things are shared expenses, such as private school tuition, summer camp, medical insurance and the like. Those things require both parents to consent, and then they pay based on their custody. If you have custody of the child 60% of the time, you pay 60% of the cost.

This does away with people using a child to get a free paycheck from the other parent, would probably limit some (but certainly not all) of withheld custody rights from one parent, and does away with the ridiculous child support guidelines that tend to be well above the real cost of raising a child for parents with a decent income. At the same time, it does not remove one parent from the child's life unnecessarily, nor deny them the financial support they need.

It also makes the idea of one parent giving up parental rights, and responsibilities with it, a possible legal construct by simply granting full custody to one of the parents.

One of my problems with the law is that it treats children as only a responsibility, and as a society we should rebel against that. Children are a blessing and a responsibility and the family courts would likely be considerably more fair if they were recognized as such.

AnnArchist · 2009-07-08T15:06:55+00:00

To make a logical argument you need to separate the issues. Abortion is a separate and independent issue that has nothing to do with child support.

Custodial or not, the father helped to create the child. They consented by sticking their dick in her slot.

The problem is "It could be argued that child support is supposed to be in the best interests of the child...but allowing it to be aborted isn't in it's best interest." these two events are completely unrelated.

"As long as abortion is legal and it's a choice that can only be made by a woman, non-custodial fathers should not be responsible for child support." There is no connection here whatsoever.

Abortion is completely separate from child support. The battle here lies with custody issues and child support amounts in split custody cases. If you don't want to be a custodial parent, you really should pretty much just shut the fuck up about child support and pay it, you deserve the child support burden because you consented to the creation of the child by engaging in sexual intercourse.

That said, If you want to be a custodial parent and for whatever reason you can't, then you have a right to bitch about it. In fact, I think you should given 50/50 custody and that you should never have to pay child support because we are both equally capable of making a living. No one is responsible for your current life situation but you, this applies to both men AND women. You can work harder or longer in order to support the child and cover day care expenses. But I don't think you should get a paycheck for having a child, especially if you have split custody.

Clanc · 2009-07-08T18:14:20+00:00

Right Wing Feminists and Anti Choice Xians are in bed together on this one. You might as well be arguing with a brick wall.

BestServedCold · 2009-07-08T17:15:40+00:00

I'd like to attack it for you but I totally agree with it and I don't have the capability to warp my logic enough to argue the other side.

cartooncorpse · 2009-07-08T19:37:42+00:00

If you have an abortion, you shouldn't get child support.

Kuonji · 2009-07-08T15:53:39+00:00

We've had a lot of discussions on this exact point in the past month or so. I agree that the laws are really skewed right now and need some tuning.

marktully · 2009-07-08T17:40:32+00:00

You can't win this argument with somebody who's pro-life, like AnnArchist. (Which isn't to say he's not a very smart guy.) They simply won't grant that a woman's decision to have a child or not is made after she's pregnant. As such, the sex act IS the reproductive act, and they can't be separated. To decide to have sex is to decide to have, or at least, to risk, kids.

Now, the sex act USED to be the same as the reproductive act, so you're also going to be battling some sub-human brain instincts here, so you gotta be ready for that.

For extra fun, you could cite gay marriage statistics and claim that nothing is lost when a father is absent, so therefore fathers have no inherent responsibility. Reserve this one for particularly stupid fucks since this probably isn't actually true--fatherhood is most likely inherently valuable--but it certainly confounds the typical feminist argument that gender is a pure social construct. Most feminists don't really think, though, so holding mutually contradictory views might not really be something that keeps them up at night. We can hope, though.

Oliverotto · 2009-07-08T15:33:54+00:00

Good Logic.

But logic is a foreign language for women.

Accept that we already live in a gynocracy and wait for Western Civiliziation to crumble.

astitious2 · 2009-07-08T17:14:27+00:00

A woman's body, a woman's choice, a woman's financial responsibility

millionairebum · 2009-07-08T12:56:44+00:00

1) of course some laws are biased towards women. women have to have the child. that's why they get to make the choice. live with it.

2) it's not a child until it's born, hence the availability of abortion.

3) if you don't want a child, don't have sex.

2009-07-08T17:12:59+00:00

Better counter is that child custody should be shared and both should pay for maintenance. If women doesn't work, then men shouldn't be forced to pay for her laziness. She should be forced to seek work while father look after the child.

hopeless_case · 2009-07-09T22:16:54+00:00

I'm not against abortion, I just think the current laws are completely skewed in favor of the mother.

I see two ways of equalizing the power men and women have when a woman gets pregnant so that it is not so completely unfair to men.

One way is what you are suggesting, which is to allow men to walk away from the responsibilities they willingly undertake when they consent to sex.

Another way is to make it harder for women to walk away from their responsibilities when they consent to sex.

I have a counter proposal that I think does that and still gives the woman sole say in whether she has an abortion or not. In a single sentence,"the man gets the right to a divorce with prejudice if his wife has an abortion in bad faith."

It takes a few paragraphs to explain what I mean by that. See my response to AnnArchist below where I've already done that.

edit: here's a link: http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/8z9tf/abortion_child_support_please_attack_my_statement/c0axwgw

Title	Abortion & Child Support, please attack my statement (I'd like to battle test the logic behind it)
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	20
Comments	120
Date	July 8, 2009 12:46 PM UTC (17 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/8z9tf/abortion_child_support_please_attack_my_statement/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/abortion-child-support-please-attack-my-statement.1053594 https://theredarchive.com/post/1053594

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