Can we talk about r/MensLib?

azazelcrowley · 2015-11-17T20:16:03+00:00

I've browsed their twitter. It's clear these people are disingenuous.

They retweet things about the red pill calling it MRM stuff, they're supporting the anti-gamergate smear job, etc.

GoHoMoThrow · 2015-11-17T18:36:44+00:00

It really seems to me like feminists created it because they want men to be feminists too.

Well sure. That explains HeForShe, the insistence that feminism gets to define International Men's Day, and the scores of people who come in here to lecture us about how awesome feminism is.

Also, I don't think it's regressive to be angry at feminism.

not being allowed to criticize feminism is because MensLib IS feminism.

azazelcrowley · 2015-11-17T19:02:01+00:00

I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, they've demonstrated a willingness to engage in inter-movement cooperation when it comes to action opportunities, and thus are an extra source of boots on the ground.

On the other, they do not recognize the institutionalized problem of feminism and labor under the impression that the reason mens issues aren't taken seriously is because of the mens rights movement, which is some impressive levels of historical revisionism and ignorance.

Many of their posters seem completely unaware what the MRM actually stands for and display the usual problem of being "Too stupid to fact check.", including at least one of the moderators.

They might represent the potential for a reformation force within the feminist movement, but I think we all accept that such is a fools errand and cannot work (Especially as MensLib actively denies feminism has a problem in the first place). This would be a fine thing for them to be, provided this were all they were and still engaged in inter-movement cooperation. (Indeed, if it showed signs of being possible and actually working, I expect the MRM would suffer a critical existence failure. It does not show such signs. We're growing, they're not, feminists continue to be obstinate and discriminatory.)

However, in addition to that, they regularly mischaracterize the MRM and push the notion that a gynocentric narrative of gender relations is sufficient to solve men's issues.

These are not merely MRAs calling themselves feminists in an attempt to get mens issues worked on from within the feminist movement.

These are feminists who are engaging in insanity. I.E, repeating the same failed methods of addressing mens issues as has been tried for a century, the gynocentric method. That their insanity is more benign than the psychopathy and sociopathy of other feminists is no reason to ignore what they are.

I think it would be best to ignore them and only contact them when we need extra signatures for something.

They'll happily sign a petition to ban circumcision, even if they are laboring under a delusional interpretation of what causes it to go unfixed and think you're a misogynist for disagreeing with that interpretation based on... you know. Evidence and shit

Where they become useless and counter productive is where the issues do not involve legal solutions and are instead social problems, there, they will continue to spread misinformation and gynocentric notions of mens issues. On these, we'll have to oppose them.

On legalistic mens issues, they'll make fine, if a little strange, allies. Provided we don't let them talk to the press, that is. ;)

_Nces · 2015-11-17T18:30:47+00:00

It's basically a self-hatred sub ("internalized misandry" to use the academic jargon). And yes you're right it's arguably worse than openly misandrist subs like Against Men's Rights. At least the latter is honest about its intentions (it's right there in the title). Most male feminist subs collapse after awhile. You can only find so many masochists. My advice is to ignore Men'sLib. The MRM is growing like wildfire. We don't need to waste time debating feminists on obscure internet forums.

pnw_diver · 2015-11-17T21:02:09+00:00

It's another feminist hate sub, without a doubt.

onyonn · 2015-11-18T07:23:36+00:00

I was over there for a while. The reason: I wanted to talk with people with a different perspective than me. Not necessarily debate, but just discuss. I mean, let's face it, all subreddits tend to become echo chambers.

I commented there a fair bit, mostly trying to bring up counterpoints to some very skewed ways that many of them view things, occasionally a drawn out debate/discussion with an individual.

I found I was mostly upvoted by the community. I just made sure that even if I was trying to make a strong point, that I did so politely.

And then I was banned. This was after replying to a mod a couple time with a few strong (but not hostile) arguments. (i.e. if we are going to throw the rules of evidence out for rape cases, then what rules are we going to replace them with?) Then I found I was banned for having a "long, ranty" reply that I commented on quite a while previous to that. No warning, though I'd seen completely trollish comments receive a warning and not a ban.

In other words, some of my comments were found "annoying", and then a mod looked through my post history to try to find some excuse to ban me. Anyone can check my post history to judge for themselves.

I've come to the conclusion that the mods have no interest in building common ground. They are as accepting of MRAs as is convenient in order to possibly bring people around to their way of thinking. If it's clear you're not going to convert, they aren't interested.

My advice: don't anyone waste their time there. The mods will certainly only get worse with time.

mindless_gibberish · 2015-11-17T19:00:48+00:00

Looks like a sub for male feminists. I do see some overlap with this sub, issues-wise, but they seem overly concerned with gender roles and redefining masculinity.

Mitthrawnuruodo1337 · 2015-11-17T19:54:01+00:00

It really seems to me like feminists created it because they want men to be feminists too.

/r/feminismformen went that way for sure. It billed itself as a "feminists caring about men's issues" and at first actually did post stuff about men's issues. Then it became "feminists telling men how to be feminist."

/r/menslib seems to be going back and forth. There are some users who are clearly radfems or misandrists masquerading as caring. But at the same time there seem to be some feminists who became disillusioned with radfem misandry and are looking for genuine space to discuss men's issues, but are adverse to anti-feminist rhetoric because they still feel that they are feminist. So you get unironic Laci Green posts right next to posts genuinly lamenting cancellation of Internation Men's Day celebrations. It's mixed.

And then of course there's MRAs in there like me lurking/posting to see if the mythical "feminists care about men too" space can actually exist. I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt. It would be nice if it could. /r/menslib is as close as I've seen, but that just proves in my mind that feminism will never answer men's needs sufficiently.

aesopstortoise · 2015-11-17T23:58:43+00:00

They are pro-feminist and disallow any discussion of legal paternal surrender, aka financial abortion, but they are, "For the Development and Well-Being of Men", so that's all right then. No thanks.

Jacobtk · 2015-11-26T20:34:08+00:00

I find that if you give people time they will eventually show what they are really about. Here is a recent comment from Dewey_Darl, one of the mods, in response to criticism about the sub's attack on the men's rights movement:

We feel that two different standards for the MRM and the feminist movement is appropriate, because we feel that the movements are qualitatively quite different. We know this is a controversial viewpoint on reddit. There are other subs, like OneY, that treat feminism and the MRM as equals, but we're trying something different.

I'll give you an example of how those different standards play out. If someone wrote in our sub "the framework of feminism shouldn't be used to solve men's issues", I would remove that comment because the purpose of this sub is to use the framework of feminism. If someone wrote "The framework of the MRM shouldn't be used to solve men's issues", I would leave that comment up, because that supports our mission statement. Any sub that is pro-x and anti-y has to enforce different standards for comments about x and comments about y, almost by definition. Again, I know that's controversial around these parts, but there are plenty of other subs that take a different approach.

When I say empathy and compassion, I mean on an individual level in our interactions with open minded MRAs. If someone comes into this sub with views we disagree with, as long as they're participating in good faith and not trying to undermine our mission statement, I think we should do our best to ensure they're met with friendliness and civility, because it's both more ethical and much more effective at changing views. I don't think that means we need to be tolerant of the men's rights movement in general.

That being said, the area where we're less friendly is when people come in and try to debate or violate our sidebar. You would be amazed at how many people come in here who try their best to undermine and argue against our mission and fundamental purpose, or who come in guns blazing insulting people, acting condescending and toxic, trying to make the people they disagree with look stupid, and just generally not participating in good faith. (In fact, we've had so many of these people in the last week or so that you might be seeing a post from us sometime soon reminding everyone of our mission statement.) We usually have to put our foot down pretty firmly with them, and this will not come off as friendly or compassionate. It's a tricky balance, and I don't claim to get it right most of the time. I'm human.

You could not ask for a better explanation of what they are really about or a better example of someone acting in bad faith.

dejour · 2015-11-17T19:38:59+00:00

I'm subbed to it. I think it's okay.

I honestly think they are more on the MRA side than not for most issues.

The thing that grates me is that there are a large number of people that seem to say things like "Well this is a legitimate issue, but we can't act all angry like those MRAs". It feels like they have a warped perception of MRAs. Most MRAs don't act "all angry". Some do (and sometimes the anger is warranted), but anger isn't the defining trait.

So I don't appreciate the MRA-bashing. But if they help put men's issues on the table and get feminism as a whole to consider men's issues properly, they probably are allies.

There's room for people who try to be moderate. It takes all kinds.

What I would really hate is for them to claim to speak for men and then make suggestions like Michael Kimmel. If that happened, they would be actively working against men's interests.

ee4m · 2015-11-17T18:54:10+00:00

Its mainly a response to feminist mischaracterizations of us.

The rules there perfectly align with what feminism wants from men.

Not allowed to be angry or hurt by women or feminist policy.

Not allowed to be a movement that sufficiently rocks the boat to create change.

Not allowed to be critical of feminist jurisprudence where it discriminates against men and boys.

Not allowed to be critical of feminism.

Allowed to discuss the mens issues that feminists deem appropriate.

So feminists have given them the opposite set of rules and freedoms that they have for themselves.

Mitthrawnuruodo1337 · 2015-11-17T19:57:03+00:00

Reposting because /r/ links to the sub are apparently banned.

It really seems to me like feminists created it because they want men to be feminists too.

Feminismformen went that way for sure. It billed itself as a "feminists caring about men's issues" and at first actually did post stuff about men's issues. Then it became "feminists telling men how to be feminist."

Menslib seems to be going back and forth. There are some users who are clearly radfems or misandrists masquerading as caring. But at the same time there seem to be some feminists who became disillusioned with radfem misandry and are looking for genuine space to discuss men's issues, but are adverse to anti-feminist rhetoric because they still feel that they are feminist. So you get unironic Laci Green posts right next to posts genuinly lamenting cancellation of Internation Men's Day celebrations. It's mixed.

And then of course there's MRAs in there like me lurking/posting to see if the mythical "feminists care about men too" space can actually exist. I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt. It would be nice if it could. Menslib is as close as I've seen, but that just proves in my mind that feminism will never answer men's needs sufficiently.

AutoModerator · 2015-11-26T20:21:39+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Title	Can we talk about r/MensLib?
Author	DillipFayKick
Upvotes	13
Comments	53
Date	November 17, 2015 6:23 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3t6qtm/can_we_talk_about_rmenslib/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/can-we-talk-about-rmenslib.967010 https://theredarchive.com/post/967010

Comments