Clothing is a language, no?

TRPACC · 2014-09-07T11:08:43+00:00

You are saying clothing is language in relation to being sexually abused.

Can you describe what you are saying because it sounds like you are saying people are saying "sexually abuse me" with their clothes - in other words they are asking for it using clothes language.

Also, this is the mens movement - we aren't anything to do with fashion or rape prevention.

men can stop rape is part of the feminist movement.

aesopstortoise · 2014-09-07T07:21:55+00:00

2/3 of women on a campus 'somewhere' were sexually abused? That was the first warning sign. Trying to have a reasonable conversation with people who mistake horror fantasy for real life is bound to go badly. I would have been insisting that we had to find out where this den of iniquity was and shut it down immediately.

You are absolutely right about clothing being a form of language, but you were not talking with people who were thinking logically. Also, families are hierarchical, and the way people talk is part of how they assert their place in that hierarchy. Common sense, logic, reasoning and truth are often very distant also-rans in this sort of conversation. Next time take a quiet deep breath, count to ten, and ask yourself if it is really worth it.

snarkysuchandsuch · 2014-09-07T08:48:53+00:00

i'm confused. you're saying that the clothes one wears doesn't scream rape me, but the clothes one wears says fuck me i'm a slut?

MRSPArchiver · 2014-09-07T06:01:33+00:00

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jamminnummeruno · 2014-09-07T11:06:09+00:00

You are not wrong, clothing is a language, but you lack an argument. I'm here to give you one. :)

Clothing is a language which creates a performance. The delicacy and impracticality of women's fashion attracts utility by proxy. Long hair can be easily grabbed, finger nails and heels can easily break, a skirt can be easily removed. In other words, her "vulnerability" establishes a threat narrative, garnering utility and protection from those performing in less vulnerable roles, e.g. short hair and jeans. Male clothing is based on utility, and create performances of utility.

The more vulnerability one performs, the more attention they receive, from those with good intentions, and from those with bad intentions.

In assessing risk, a criminal would choose to attack the most vulnerable, because there is less chance of failure. Let's say a predator is looking for a victim. One is wearing army fatigues and Doc Marten's, the other, high heels and a miniskirt. One could be concealing a weapon, the other has no pockets and is carrying everything in her hands. It's fairly obvious who the choice would be.

The most fascinating fashion object that women wear is high heels. High heels establish vulnerability but are also used in hypergame. Heels are a mate selection filter, used to attract men of equal or taller stature. Height increases the value of an individuals sexual currency.

Though classified as feminist, Judith Butler's theories on Performativity are highly worth a read to understand this subject better.

No one should be blamed for being a victim, but it's important for a victim to be aware when they are performing their vulnerability.

whatainttaken · 2014-09-08T23:46:00+00:00

You are correct that clothing is a language, BUT like any language, it comes with wildly different dialects and interpretations. I suppose that might be where the anger from your gf came from. Language is less than precise and the language of clothes can be very imprecise, so repeatedly asserting that "clothes are language" makes it seems as if there is one "clothes" language spoken by everyone, everywhere in the world, when there really is not.

treyokay · 2014-09-28T06:20:28+00:00

I suspect you might already be aware of this, but the discussion you're trying to have falls under the philosophies of semiology. Feminists love semiology, they're literally fucking obsessed with this form of critique, and in a large way, is foundational to feminist theory.

The fact that feminists specifically oppose the discussion of women's attire, is, in my eyes, another example of feminists sweeping the implications of their own ideology under the rug.

lafielle · 2014-09-07T07:49:38+00:00

I believe you were using the wrong angle, which is why the discussion got off track (for one, you should have challenged the absolutely fictitious 2/3rd, because that is utter and complete bullcrap drawn from the ass of some feminist agenda, but that's a different debate)

Of course clothing is a language, but by expressing the argument like that, its very easy for people to cling to the "thus she was saying 'rape me' to everyone" line of thought - that's not a logical conclusion, but is the association people (incorrectly) make.

Thus, instead of going for "communication through clothing" open with what physical limitations the clothing may have - this is a physical characteristic and it implies nothing about "asking" on the part of the imaginary victim. For example, if you are wearing clothes that restrict your ability to flee (like excessively high heels), you are more likely to be targeted by a mugger, rapist, etc, since they will feel you have less ability to get away or pursuit them.

Likewise, dressing in a thin little dress that leaves nothing to the imagination means that they can visually confirm you are not carrying any defensive weapons like a gun, knife or pepper spray.

These aren't matters of what the imaginary victim is sending out, but rather matters of what others can perceive about you - that is an important distinction to make in these cases, so I suggest mentioning it explicitly: the imaginary victim isnt telling everyone "look at me, I can't flee and have no defensive weapons" but rather the imaginary rapist is observing the imaginary victim and seeing "that person cannot flee and has no defensive weapons".

To you and me that is an immaterial distinction, but some people associate "communicating" with "asking for it", so through this angle you avoid that unfortunate link allowing them to better see the truth of your argument without being blinded by side-associations.

I would suggest bringing the matter up again in a one-on-one quiet moment. Don't yield but instead explain that the fight weighs heavily upon your heart and that you'd like to explain your point of view because you think they may be misunderstanding you and you think it is important that they understand you are on their side (say that explicitly). Then take the time to listen to their point of view, don't cut in and argue, but hear them out, and summarize their views, identify where you view things differently and accept that there is a difference of opinion if necessary (rather than arguing the point endlessly).

If they aren't willing to do this with you, but they continue to insist you "drop it" without offering you a chance to explain, then they aren't interested in your view, your opinion is worthless and irrelevant to them and they want you to bend to their will and ignore your own heart and mind. You can then decide what to do with that knowledge. But again, I suspect a quiet one-on-one discussion will be more than enough to resolve this in a happy manner.

2014-09-07T12:32:25+00:00

Unless "2/3" means "2 or 3"- i.e. they were referring to a few specific incidents- that's crazy talk.

I think it's fair to say that clothing is a form of protocol. This should be evident from the fact that a dinner suit (tux) carries different connotations versus t-shirt and jeans. That said, the protocols we're talking about are sometimes fairly loose.

To an extent, certain types of clothing convey sexual availability. Anyone who thinks otherwise isn't paying attention. However- and this is the crucial point- sexual availability does not mean universal availability: In other words, you're available one to those to whom you wish to make yourself available.

So in a way, these are two different conversations, and it's best not to bring up the clothing-as-a-protocol argument in the context of rape, as people will almost invariably misconstrue your point.

baskandpurr · 2014-09-07T15:40:53+00:00

I agree that clothing is language and that it does not advocate rape. I don't follow how that fits into the conversation about sexual abuse on campus?

The discussion of campus sexual assault focuses on ensuring that male students are given a fair chance to defend themselves if they are innocent. Many campus boards want to consider the word of the female as proof and expell the student on her say so.

I think its safe to say that the MRM only dicusses clothing when its used as some kind of unrealistic exception. Things like "I can wear a low cut top that shows of my enormous breasts but you're a pervert if you look at them". Even then the topic is not that people can't wear what they want but that they can't dictate how other people react. Some people wear clothes to provoke a reaction and then complain when they get a reaction.

The other topic around clothing is about feminists insisting that anti-rape advice is slut shaming. Most people consider taking steps to prevent a crime to be a sensible thing to do (lock doors, hide expensive gadgets, avoid dangerous areas). Everybody except feminists talking about rape. The MRM tends to focus on the alcohol side, feminists like to pretend clothing is a factor. I assume that a male rapist would be more interested in a lone drunken female. Attractive clothing might actually make the girl safer by getting attention.

guywithaccount · 2014-09-07T23:16:56+00:00

I don't really like the phrase "clothing is a language", but let's say I accept your premise; it's not a language that has any way to say "I want some dick and I don't really care who I get it from", or "everybody come hit on me, I want all the attention". There's literally nothing you can wear that wordlessly expresses those sentiments.

Also, people lie with words; even if you suppose that the meanings of different outfits are standardized, which they absolutely aren't, why mightn't they lie with clothing too?

Title	Clothing is a language, no?
Author	ImTiredOfTheInternet
Upvotes	6
Comments	22
Date	September 7, 2014 6:01 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/2fp7ie/clothing-is-a-language-no/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/clothing-is-a-language-no.1620821 https://theredarchive.com/post/1620821

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