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Feminism 2017

jaib9

October 1, 2017

563 upvotes

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Post Information

Title	Feminism 2017
Author	jaib9
Upvotes	563
Comments	82
Date	October 1, 2017 1:24 AM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/73ivcc/feminism_2017/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/feminism-2017.913606 https://theredarchive.com/post/913606

Comments

[–]RunsInJeans 73 points74 points75 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Gezza44 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link

[–]meeelting 8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Assuming job and wage equality the amount of men who earns more is halved, leaving women with less eligible men. At the same time, the women at the top of the society, see extremely less men, as there's noone above them in status to chase.

It becomes a catch 22, where you get something to complain about if you have equal opportunity, and something to complain about if you don't.

I'm all for equal wage and opportunity as it provides more freedom for everyone.

However noone is discussing it's consequences and the only potential solution I can see (a radical change in what women are attracted to, which I dont see as fair to them or maybe even possible) can't be discussed because feminists shoot down anything that says there is any kind of problems with feminism or women.

If you have a solution to this problem, that'd be great.

[–]Gezza44 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

1) making a generalization about "women" without acknowledging it as such

2) comparing systematic oppression of women with not being able to date someone with more money without acknowledging the vast difference in severity

3) conflating wanting something and wanting more availability of something; someone can want something and simultaneously not advocating for it to become easier or more available e.g someone going to the Olympics as an athlete for the prestige

4) If abolishing the gender pay gap and wanting to marry someone of the opposite gender with more money than you is intrinsically contradictory that you can explain the contradiction in this specific case; A woman wants to marry a richer man, because she is straight and desires high social status, wealth being a means to achieve that. She also believes that people should have equal opportunities and believing that males and females are intrinsically equal (in all morally relevant axis of comparison) she concludes that the pay gap is an indication of systematic oppression as otherwise why would there be a gap?. Thus she meets both conditions without an apparent contradiction.

[–]meeelting 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Hey, it's nice to see a feminist in here! I love that a debate can open up, and I hope we can have a nice talk. I feel I must apologize in advance because I see most of your points irrelevant, but I'm hoping that we can find mutual grounds or a mutual way of expressing ourselves where meaningful progress can be made.

1) making a generalization about "women" without acknowledging it as such [...]

My argument is based on statistics. Statistics are generalizations by implication, and we are unable to discuss groups of people without it. Here are a few sources in regards to the statistics I am arguing:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Date-Onomics-Dating-Became-Lopsided-Numbers/dp/076118208X https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/228878.php

2) ...

Was a roman nobleman's slave more or less oppressed than a roman free man living in squalor? The first had no need to find food for the day but was beaten daily, the latter was not beaten but had to literally fight for food. Would you say that a rich white woman is oppressed more or less than a poor white male with no belongings? Your point is apt only in personal comparison, and I am arguing using statistics.

3) ...

The point I am making is that there will be complaints whether or not these women find men to date. "Someone can want something and simultaneously not advocating for it to become easier" - and then complain about it.

4) ...

I find it irrelevant if she meets both conditions, because, again, I find it only relevant that she complains on the lack of men.

Do you have any ideas on how to solve the problem that i described in my aforementioned post?

Edit: I've been editing a bit. Hope you dont mind. Yes I am arguing from the point of view where it is primarily high status heterosexual women complaining about the lack of heterosexual men. I am absolutely sure that an LGBT person identifying as a woman can have similar complaints, and I see them as statistically irrelevant. They are a cornercase and need to be supported on an individual basis.

Edit 2:

she concludes that the pay gap is an indication of systematic oppression as otherwise why would there be a gap

Conclusion on a fictional person is speculation. The pay gap indicating systematic oppression because of itself implies circular logic. Not arguing against a pay gap - possibly effects and cause, and how much - but you can improve that point.

[–]Gezza44 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

1) read your sources "When women considered him for a long-term relationship, owning the sports car held no advantage relative to owning an economy car". Also dont supply a source behind a pay wall, what are you trying to achieve. Furthermore you missed the point, I dont not care If the generalization is true or not, I was criticizing you for not clearly expressing that it was just a generalization

2) You completely misinterpreted my point, I am criticizing "It becomes a catch 22..." for comparing "it's consequences" (it's being abolishing the wage gap) and the wage gap existing. your example is irrelevant to these two experiences being compared and therefore a red herring

3) Another red herring, I am not arguing about whether or not there would be complaining but whether or not there is an inherent contradiction in the position presented in the meme; "Could you explain the contradiction for me?"

4) Again if its not clear I am arguing that there is not contradiction, which youre rebuttal makes no argument against.

5) It's not a problem, there is nothing inherently immoral in someone not getting what they want if there is no reason that they ought to have it.

response to edit 2: "is speculation" Irrelevant if position A and B are inherently contradictory than any speculated person who holds A and B experiences a contradiction, so identify the contradiction if your premise is true.

"the pay gap indicating systematic oppression because of itself implies circular logic. " Youre really going to have to elaborate here as I have no Idea what you are saying, maybe ill restate the opinion of the speculated person. It should be noted the the validity of their opinions is actually irrelevant to whether or not there is a contradiction. If women are equal, but there is an unequal outcome present (wage gap) then it follows that there is some factor which is causes the unequal outcome (therefore oppressing the outcome of equality). since they are part of a society this is societal or institutional(which can be defined as "an organization, establishment, foundation, society...") oppression. You might be interested to know that I believe equality through favoring women over men is discrimination towards men and does not solve the problem of WHAT causes women to be payed less but merely THAT they are payed less (which is a morally repugnant approach)

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Yeah I don't hate these memes but maybe we could create a separate sub for them, if one doesn't already exist, kind of like how there's r/jordanpeterson and r/jordan_peterson_memes. This sub has always impressed me with its maturity in discussing both men's and women's issues and being very warm and positive overall, I don't want us attacking and strawmanning others and creating a circle jerk.

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appeal to definition tho, merely picking something is not cherry picking, the picked thing needs to be clearly contradictory to the majority of things present. I never said I have misinterpreted you, I dont believe I have due to the context in which you wrote that, I was merely correcting the word you used. I understand youre not speaking about all women you are, as you said, speaking about "most of the ones (women)" . It is sexist to simplify most women into two extremely demeaning categories.

"And even IF you had merely "misinterpreted" ". I have not never said I did, merely correcting what you think I have done.

"because you did it on purpose in order to discredit me and my comment. That's cherry picking my friend ;)" very clearly proving my point about your ignorance of how to use words.

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