Finally got through the Sarkesian video

stcredzero · 2013-03-16T21:15:38+00:00

It definitely was an oversight on Sarkesian's part to ignore the fact that Peach and Zelda are kidnapped BECAUSE they're so powerful, with Peach being the head of state of the entire Mushroom Kingdom, pretty much everywhere in any Mario game, apart from some places in the Galaxy games, and Zelda wielding the Triforce of Wisdom (and also being head of state of Hyrule in several games). She never even mentioned Rosalina who is the ruler of the entire Mario universe. (Some great and in depth research, Anita!) If we swapped Peach and Zelda's roles with men, that too would be considered sexism because it marginalizes women and supposes that women cannot rule. The only solution would be to put women protagonists in a Mario or Zelda game, but would that appeal to that market? If the video game market mostly consists of males, would it not make sense to put a male as the protagonist, as it is easier to fit in that role? This is like demanding harlequin writers to write books in which men are the main characters. Both are trying to appeal to a market in which one gender overwhelmingly dominates, and both necessitate the consumer putting himself or herself in the protagonist's shoes. Look at the young adult literature section: hundreds of books with female protagonists because the market is largely female, and yes, they too, like harlequin, fulfil a sort of female fantasy: a romantic, attractive, caring man who is unquestionably loyal to the female protagonist and will do anything to protect her, at least that seems to be an overarching tendency. Both have a market to satisfy, which they do successfully. Not to mention the negative feedback loop involved, in which men on the whole are into video games more and find it easier both to write video games centralizing a male character because it is easier to get into his mindset, and because it makes more sense to appease the market, whereas harlequin and YA literature is mostly dominated by female writers, which then centralizes a woman character because it is easier for women to write, thereby attracting women readers. It's not sexism. It's economics. If Anita is upset that the female gender image as a whole is weak and frail, she should be talking about that as an entire subject as a whole rather than attacking the video game industry specifically. Pretty much every mass-produced form of entertainment involves gender roles.

Thievishmetal69 · 2013-03-16T23:25:02+00:00

Her arguments and "points" aren't worth considering, she's a hypocrite.

She is a damsel, who profited from her crying helplessness who then proceeds to complain about that idea.

Snowley · 2013-03-16T23:50:53+00:00

I completely agree with you. I made a similar post regarding this to a bunch of my gamer friends. Like so many feminists analysing media, they focus on the image of women, and don't even take the time to really appreciate how fucked over men are on the opposite end in the same situation.

Earlier, someone was arguing with me over women being the most objectified in NA society between the genders, and posted a dolce and gabana (sp?) ad where a bunch of muscley dudes where standing around another muscley dude who was holding down this woman in a sexual position. And all she obviously was pointing out how sexually objectified this was to women. Never expanding on the fact that the same image portrayed men as musclebound violent offenders. Ugh.

Also, Zelda is a fucking badass in most of the LoZ games. She gets captured sometimes, but Link has his fair share of fuckups too, and there are plenty of dolty male characters.

Sarkeesian is focusing on the bad, and ignoring the good. And, according to her apparent agenda, her complaints hold no ground in today's video game world. Female characters come in all flavours and most rpgs let you play as a woman if you wish. Many games have female leads, and men are also playing many different characters archetypes.

She, like most feminists, is behind the times.

rightsbot · 2013-03-16T19:36:19+00:00

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UnoriginalMike · 2013-03-17T00:11:32+00:00

You honestly expected anything but cherry picking from someone who raised 150000 to play video games?

mccmi613 · 2013-03-17T00:28:50+00:00

Another flip side of this trope, is the idea that women are inherently worth risking life and limb for solely due to their femininity. The idea that a man need to suffer and risk injury for a woman and only then are they worthy of female attention. It is damaging to both genders. And very lazy story telling.

falilth · 2013-03-17T06:05:58+00:00

I don't know of this is already a comment but on the Zelda part Gannon the major bad guy was from a female led society he was gerudo which was a Amazonian style men only born seldomly or used for breeding kinda society

stcredzero · 2013-03-17T00:17:33+00:00

She had to work awfully hard to make the damsel thing as big a deal as she made it out to be. Pulling from very old Japanese made games doesn't do much to say this is still a problem. ... Furthermore, what other motivation is a teenager going to really understand? Losing a child? Extreme wealth? Leadership figure? Not quite the hormonal drive that rescuing a woman would have.

So, you seem to be saying that it's only a demographic consequence of early gamer audiences being primarily teenaged boys. Seems to me, that you and Ms. Sarkeesian are pretty much saying the same thing. It just means different things to the two of you.

This implicit assumption that culture is segregated into stuff for individual genders and narrow age bands just seems weird to me, coming from my perspective as a traditional musician. Cultures used to be shared across the whole community, not sharded into marketable store-shelf categories. Societies were also more cohesive, understanding, and less divisive back then as well. I'm not sure what we can do about it without abrogating personal freedom, though.

bunker_man · 2013-03-17T08:44:31+00:00

The video started out not that bad. However...

...Blaming nintendo without mentioning their positives. For two decades (until other M, lol) Samas Aran was the strongest readily identifiable female character pretty much in any fiction.

Using the word patriarchy in a serious context.

And ignoring entirely the main reason early games all had people kidnap females. In those games there were no text cutscenes. But people still want MOTIVATION. There's only so much you can convey in one five second image that shows motivation. Your options are limited, and someone carrying away your girlfriend is shown more easily than someone what... robbing a convenience store? If they want personal grudge stories there's only so much. And war-like or worldwide situations as motivation are aplenty.

meeeow · 2013-03-17T11:29:59+00:00

Pulling from very old Japanese made games

She's doing a part II with newer games and games that are good in not doing that. Plus it's not like they're not world-wide franchises.

She neglects to mention that while the damsel in distress trope is pretty played up, ninjas also kidnapped the president, the protagonists child, etc.

Is it enough to be a trope? She just made a 9 minute video and is about to release another one showing continuous examples of this particular trope and why it's damaging to the perception of women. It's not like other tropes or story lines don't exist.

Let's not forget, until very recently, video games were aimed at pre-teen and teen males

Which kinda explains why these tropes are seen as acceptable. That's such a mute statement: "games are biased against women, they're just biased towards men".

Furthermore, what other motivation is a teenager going to really understand?

Because that's clearly the main reason to play a game. Anytime someone passes me the controller I ask the character's motivation otherwise I don't play t all. Sure. If you care so much about storyline and objective you should in fact be pretty sick of just having a girl as your goal.

Not quite the hormonal drive that rescuing a woman would have.

I'm sure 13 year old boys are perfectly capable of understanding a more complex storyline, that doesn't relinquish women into the role of "trophy".

When a colleague of mine says she can't do something because she isn't strong enough so it becomes my job, or defers it to me simply because she is a female and I am not doesn't help her case.

What? A. How is this related? B. Have you considered that it might because you are stronger? I'm short, if I need to reach something high I ask my tall housemate. We are travelling, my stronger housemate offers to carry the heavier bag when he can see struggling me with it. That's just common sense and doesn't mean I have no responsibilities or can't do anything.

The male stereotypes in pop culture are just as bad, men are portrayed as dumb, clumsy, and incapable.

And that's really bad too! I'm just not sure why it'd come up on a series centered around female tropes. Why don't you create a kickstarter and make a series on male tropes? Seriously. But don't expect brownie points just because someone else did something based on a different group.

Sarkesian seems to leave out any games aimed at girls, Barbie etc

You mean on the one video, discussing the Damsel in Distress trope she hasn't mentioned video-games aimed at girls? Could that be because that wasn't the point of the video at all?

And this isn't touching on the point that "Barbie Fashion Designer" is what girls get. No you can't save the world, rescue anyone or use powers or fight. Go make some pink clothes. Ugh.

sarkesian seems very happy to bash males

Where did she bash males? She was talking about tropes in video-game no men bashing.

not even admit the possibility of sexism against men being present.

THAT'S BECAUSE SHE IS NOT DISCUSSING MEN. SHE IS DISCUSSING WOMEN. I don't understand why this is so hard to comprehend. She is doing a video series based on female tropes. Why on earth would she discuss male tropes or sexism towards men?

has already decided that men are guilty of crimes from pop culture from 20 years ago.

This is in your head. She discusses societal norms, patriarchy and the like but she doesn't blame men at all.

That it is the man's job to rescue a girl who has gotten herself into trouble.

And that is the problem, hence why she used the ball example at the start of the video. Girls in video-game hardly ever have autonomy or power or ability to rescue themselves. You can count on a few fingers games with non-hyper sexualised, cool, strong female leads in big names. Peach and Zelda are supposed to be incredibly powerful, yet they keep falling into the same trap over and over again.

Remember my colleague above? This is where the problem comes in. I am an asshole if I don't rescue this weaker woman. Is she actually weaker? Maybe, maybe not. It doesn't matter either way. She gets paid the same as I do, but cannot perform all the tasks I can. All she is required, by the strongest of this trope, is a peck on the cheek for possibly life threatening labor.

What? What part of your job description needs strength that the woman wasnt able to fulfill? Are you sure it wasn't just a favour. And either way how is this relevant to video at all.

Also, regarding Peach and Zelda, they were the ruling bodies of their respective kingdoms.

So you'd expect them to be able to take care of themselves, but no they need the male hero. Can you not see the problem with spending the whole game captive and only having a role at the end, when they put out?

It strikes me as interesting that she considers these women to be weak when they can rule a nation peacefully.

Probably because that isn't in the game or plays any major role in the story line?

t strikes me as interesting that she considers these women to be weak when they can rule a nation peacefully. The problem occurred when a foreign party sent a super-powered monstrosity to the utopian kingdom to steal from them. The super-powered villain being the male ruler of an inferior land and would be usurper points to male domination by brawn, not brain, and men being violent and cruel by nature. It takes another violent male to fix the problem. This is a stereotype mysteriously absent from her video.

Fine, I'm not even going to discuss the points you made and just ask once more: why did you expect this to be part of a video centered around female tropes, specifically the damsel in distress one?

geengaween · 2013-03-18T16:15:40+00:00

Doesn't Mario rescue a bunch of Male kings in Super Mario Bros 3?

Title	Finally got through the Sarkesian video
Author	UnoriginalMike
Upvotes	18
Comments	64
Date	March 16, 2013 7:35 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/1af98r/finally-got-through-the-sarkesian-video/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/finally-got-through-the-sarkesian-video.1608358 https://theredarchive.com/post/1608358

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