Honestly curious drunken question

lurker_lenore · 2013-01-15T11:53:01+00:00

Do you think men are more oppressed in the 'modern western world' than women?

In general, we try to avoid playing "who's the bigger victim?" To quote a particularly awesome movie, "That's a long wait for a train won't come."

Rather, we focus on areas in which men lack equal protection and representation under laws and policies. A quick list includes:

Genital Mutilation (a.k.a. circumcision)

Rape laws - both in terms of being victims, and alleged perpetrators

Domestic Violence - use of the Duluth Model, as well as increased federal funding to law enforcement and prosecutors who have a domestic violence conviction rate against men.

Father's rights - men receive custody in less than 15% of instances they pursue it, and most jurisdictions have an official or unofficial policy of not enforcing a father's court-mandated visitation rights. Child support is often set in amounts in excess of the father's income, and failure to pay results in license suspension, passport revocation, and even jail time.

Some men are forced to pay for children which aren't theirs, even after the court has been made aware of the fact. Boys as young as fourteen have been forced to pay for children resulting from statutory rape.

And that's leaving aside the issues of male contraceptives, sperm theft, and sperm donation.

Divorce - Women initiate over two-thirds of all divorces, and are often granted the marital home and car, half of all monetary assets, and half (or most) of the man's future income.

buster2209 · 2013-01-15T13:35:28+00:00

Meh, I don't like doing that. It just becomes a contest to see which sex is the bigger victim. The big problem is that equality is a total and utter bs. Men and women are different. Period. By trying to make us all gender neutral, it just makes us all miserable. As always, big government comes in at the behest of a few control freaks and tries to legislate romantic interactions between men and women and the typical 'one size fits all, fits nobody' laws are enacted. The big problem is responsibility and lack thereof. People are too quick to blame others when things go wrong rather than spend the time and energy to look at what factor(s) they had in determining what happened to them. Until people want to take responsibility for themselves (failures an all), big 'Daddy' government will all be too happy to enact draconian legislation in order to grow it's own power.

SuperUppercut · 2013-01-15T14:07:26+00:00

Yes. Absolutely. Across the board. In every single category.

Now it's your turn:

Do you honestly not see the ways in which women are privileged?

gender quotas that are somehow discarded when women are the majority
laws designed specifically to protect you at the expense of men's rights to due process
billions of dollars of government funding to benefit you and exclude men
a decades-long nationwide campaign of GRRRL Power and male shaming
pro-female/anti-male sexist bias in everything from finding an apartment to standing before a judge
the right to give your child up for adoption
being taken seriously when you are victimized in any way

Can you seriously sit there and claim some BS like "men are privileged because of teh patriarchy" when faced with REAL CONCRETE examples of female privilege staring you right in the face?

chocoboat · 2013-01-15T12:45:22+00:00

I think in many regards men are significantly more restrained than women. Men have considerably less choices in regards to:

-Lifestyle Choices ( Women have a decent chance to work full time or part time or be a SAHP. Men almost certainly need to work)

-Physical appearance (clothing, make up, etc)

-Sexuality. There is considerably less resistance to women experimenting with their sexuality or being bi-sexual. Most violence against homosexuals is directed at gay men.

thewhitelocust · 2013-01-15T11:37:17+00:00

I don't believe oppression is the right word for this context. There are legal barriers to equality for both men and women. The trouble is that aside from a very small number of sources, these instances of discrimination towards men are not widely acknowledged. Women's issues are more widely recognized and better understood than men's issues, and certainly do require addressing. However, millennia of patriarchy do not console a father who has no home and cannot see his children.

2013-01-15T11:40:43+00:00

but basically do you think men are more chained down by societal restrains than women, whever you are?

no. absolutely not.

2013-01-15T13:05:15+00:00

I think men have always been more chained down by social restraints than women. A social species will have social constraints, and a territorial species will have aggression. Since men got more of the aggression in our highly social species, they get more of the constraints.

themountaingoat · 2013-01-15T14:11:43+00:00

I don't think it makes sense to evaluate what gender has it worse when it comes to social factors, since it is always going to be subjective which role is worse. However men face many instances of legal discrimination, and women generally have huge advantages under the law. Because of this I would say that women are much less oppressed in today's society.

Coinin · 2013-01-15T13:51:32+00:00

I can't speak for everyone obviously, but I think the whole "Oppression Olympics thing" (fighting over who has it worse) is a massive mistake.

As far as I can see, both genders gain advantages and suffer disadvantages based on their respective wedding tackle and how society treats them. Women's issues have been the only subject of discussion for decades, now it's time for men's issues to get some air time (and hopefully some solutions).

Happy drinking :)

Edit: Also, oppression is the wrong word when it comes to gender. It's hard to say "men/women, delete as appropriate are oppressed by men/women, delete as appropriate" when they also benefit greatly from the relationship.

CaptainVanderdecken · 2013-01-15T13:57:19+00:00

Biggest victim & zero sum games. I won't play that argument. People who do peg the "origin" reference point on one gender or another rather than jumping out of their flesh & looking at BOTH. If we are to have a better society for all understand that we are a whole, not "female society" vs "male society". That is an entirely disingenuous construct. Also note that "USA society", "Western society", India, Africa, China, Middle East are all distinct societies & cultures. This idea of "New World Order" based on a body part (vagina) is delusional.

loose-dendrite · 2013-01-15T16:24:21+00:00

I think calling gender relations in the western world "oppressive" is incredibly offensive to actually oppressed people.

rightsbot · 2013-01-15T11:08:19+00:00

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Nepene · 2013-01-15T13:38:07+00:00

Oppression depends on who you are.

If you happen to be picked up by a policeman with weed, a mostly harmless drug, and imprisoned in jail for a long time as the judge hates males and then raped and beaten by guards you are probably more oppressed than the average woman.

If you happen to be raped, male or female, and people tell you to shut up and not make waves you are probably more oppressed than average.

If you are male and want to be a nurse you're more restrained than the average woman. They think males are rapists and murderers and don't let them be with kids.

If you're female and you work in a mostly male programming job and are sexually harassed a lot you're more restrained than the average male. Plus a lot of guys think women are stupid and suck at maths.

Sasha_ · 2013-01-15T16:23:34+00:00

Interesting question.

Men die younger (and that's getting worse); if a women bores of her partner or believes he's not looking after her well enough, she will discard him without a thought or penality; men account for 98% of workplace deaths and serious injury; men suffer more mental illness, sickness and disability; men account for the overwhelming majority of military deaths, and men are overwhelmingly more likely to have the stress of finanical responsibility for supporting a family; men are also subject to social pressures - gay men are much more likely to suffer prejudice and discrimination than gay women for example.

Men are also far more likely to be victims of crime and face domestic abuse at equal rates to women, but with less options for escaping such abuse. Men are more likely to be homeless and unemployed.

As a group, women are much, much wealthier than men (one estimate is that women control as much as 70% of disposable wealth in the U.S.) and exert much more political power, by forming the largest single voting cohort.

Against that, one could argue that women face some difficulties in the employment market, due to factors such as childcare responsibilities hindering career progression. That, of course, should be balanced by the fact that her partner will be transferring his net wealth to support her. Also, unmarried young women actually earn more than unmarried young men.

You could also perhaps argue that societal and commercial pressures act on women to encourage them to spend money on cosmetics and to be attractive. Though, of course, men are subject to the same pressures.

So there in a nutshell, you have it. On the one hand there's a greater chance of death, disease, illness, personal destruction and physical injury, stress and trauma if you're a man, but if you're a woman you might feel obliged to spend $33 - of your husband's money - on a jar of facecream.

Tough. I'd need to think about it. What was the question again?

chocoboat · 2013-01-15T13:42:49+00:00

Not really. Women face plenty of discrimination in their lives, and the "glass ceiling" is a very real thing. I think overall, women face unfair situations a little more often.

But this isn't a contest... there should be fairness for everyone. If there's more crime committed where the victim is black, does that mean we should ignore crime where the victim is white? Of course not- you treat both crimes equally, and try to fight/prevent all kinds of crime against everyone.

What's kind of shocking to me is how the unfairness against men is completely entrenched in our legal system and is allowed to continue this way. Genital cutting is just fine, as long as the child is male. Male rape victims have to pay child support. A woman assaulting a man is often not even arrested.

I can't think of any unfairness against women in the legal system. It's all social instead... things like "Helen's a good worker, but I'm not sure if I should promote her because women are weak leaders sometimes". Women are often assumed to be less intelligent if they are attractive.

Those situations are fucked up, but it's not every man who thinks that way, and things are slowly changing. But over in the legal system... EVERY mother is heavily favored in divorce court. EVERY man is receiving longer sentences than the same crime committed by a woman.

VoodooIdol · 2013-01-15T15:46:57+00:00

Do you think men are more oppressed in the 'modern western world' than women?

No. I don't think either gender is oppressed more than the other. I don't see that either is really "oppressed". I think there are specific instances where one gender is disadvantaged compared to the other, but that's about it.

2013-01-16T06:13:12+00:00

This question pops up so much in really any social or political justice movement, and what it comes down to is people attempting to validate their opinion based on the suffering of one group or another. Honestly, I don't think that "men" or "women" are more free or oppressed. I believe that certain people are more free or oppressed in certain areas than others, but the situation goes far beyond sex.

It's undeniable that both men and women face societal and political discrimination, but the situation plays a huge role: Women benefit in certain areas while men don't, and vice-versa. It would be much better if, as a people, we treated each other as individuals and didn't draw conclusions about each other's life experiences based on external traits.

Title	Honestly curious drunken question
Author	truestoryrealtalk
Upvotes	8
Comments	25
Date	January 15, 2013 11:07 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/16m29i/honestly-curious-drunken-question/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/honestly-curious-drunken-question.1604126 https://theredarchive.com/post/1604126

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