Hypocrisy | MensRights

Guitar_nerd4312 · 2023-03-18T01:50:34+00:00

Most of this sub is a shit show and a disgrace to true mens rights. Most of the posts here are complaints and complaints about feminists, but what are you...

[–]househubbyintraining 8 points9 points10 points 3 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Guitar_nerd43121 points 3 years ago [recovered] (22 children) | Copy Link

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[–]househubbyintraining 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

The girls getting death penalty? Sounds like equality to me.

Remember when I called you guys beligerent? You can take care of homeless men and homeless women equally, just as you can care for male abuse victims and female victims equally. Yet it seems you guys don't care that funding is simply denied or strip down for men. Nor do you care that feminism actively produces more male punish in men's abuse through cops receiving duluth model training. The duluth model is a feminist invention, and has made men kill themselves.

If you're gonna vomit a troll post, actually take the time reconsider how you harm the image of feminism = egalitarianism, cause simply your proving our point by agreeing that our issues exist and then saying men's problems are less severe. Legit, killing your own movement here by trolling. Try not being oxygen deprived.

Solving them comes first before stroking your or mine ego.

You're literally weaponizing female rape victims and denying severity of male rape within a troll post on an MRA sub, how egotistical are you? Anyway, go outside, breath fresh air, smell grass, try not to eat it.

[+]Little-Thingy -2 points-1 points0 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]househubbyintraining 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Oh no no no, I've seen this a thousand times "I'm not even a feminist bro!" You are spitting feminist talking points. You are a feminist. Stop trying to run away by calling yourself a 'non-feminist' or a 'true feminist' You're a feminist and you're complicet in a system that actively is killing men by not support men's issues and by being actively antagonistic to men's issues.

I'm gonna make you my bitch for a minute, cause you're fucking embarassing.

You know what you're saying here btw? By talking about death penalty is as if its a women issue. You're denying that men have been disproportionatly targeted for death penalty since fucking forever. And the one time women are put on death penalty is when death penalty abolishment starts to matter to you? A feminist. The bill wasn't even gonna past, and yes women have gotten death penaltied for killing 1-4 year old babies, this isnt new. and I'm sure is historical. (death penalty for women)

As for men, I ask you to actually think, if death penalty is a men's issue, that maybe MRAs care about it. Would this then not come to you're mind that supporting MRAs will actually prevent women from being executed since we seek to abolish death penalty? A men's issue.

Or do you wanna be like these guys or these guys (one more) all which being feminist or pro-feminist. You can be like them, and make death penalty a crime against women (not men). In order to stop just women from being death penaltied (not men). And then come to us MRAs and preach that we don't appreciate equality. Would it not be equality to put as many women as there are men on death row? Honestly, how old are you?

I ask because you're clearly to immature to take the appropriate advice of plugging out your wifi for two years to regain a couple braincells.

>you forget the basic truth - People who suffer the most deserve help first.

Is the most uneducated statement I've ever read in my entire life being spoken towards an egalitarian. I'm not even sure how you could handle that white men are put on death row more (42-41 [white-black]) Then saying that my position is an "us vs them" mentality in which I want to revoke women's privilege; I do actually. I want to take women's privilege and wipe my ass with it. All this child-like vitriol because I'm simply making a statement on the disparity between men and women unfavouring men.

Try not to dodge the feminist title and my other point about the duluth model causes male suicide, because you are one, a ragey misandric and very pathetic feminist.

[+]Little-Thingy 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]househubbyintraining 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]duhhhh 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[+]Little-Thingy 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]duhhhh 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Why do you think I mean that?

The statistical definition of rape is controlled by feminists that deny men can be raped by women. Feminists actively block acknowledgment of males being heterosexual rape victims, support services for them, and laws to protect raped men and boys.

For statistical reporting, rape has been carefully defined as forced penetration of the victim in most of the world. Please listen to this feminist professor Mary P Koss explain that a woman raping a man isn't rape. Hear her explain in her own voice just a few years ago - https://clyp.it/uckbtczn. I encourage you to listen to what she is saying. (Really. Listen to it! Think about it from a man's perspective.)

She is considered the foremost expert on sexual violence in the US. She is the one that started the 1 in 4 American college women is sexually assaulted myth by counting all sorts of things the "victims" didn't. A man misinterpreting a situation going in for a kiss and then backing off when she pulls back, puts up her hand, or turns her cheek is counted as a sexual assault on a woman even if she doesn't think it was. As you hear in her own words the woman's studies professor and trusted expert that literally wrote the book on measuring prevalence of sexual violence does not call a woman drugging and riding a man bareback rape ... or even label it sexual assault ... it is merely "unwanted contact"

You see she has been saying this for decades and was instrumental in creating the methodologies most (including the US and many other government agencies around the world) use for gathering rape statistics. E.g.

Detecting the Scope of Rape : A Review of Prevalence Research Methods. Author: Mary P. Koss. Journal of Interpersonal Violence Volume: 8 Issue: 2 Dated: (June 1993) Page: 206

Although consideration of male victims is within the scope of the legal statutes, it is important to restrict the term rape to instances where male victims were penetrated by offenders. It is inappropriate to consider as a rape victim a man who engages in unwanted sexual intercourse with a woman.

Src: http://boysmeneducation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Koss-1993-Detecting-the-Scope-of-Rape-a-review-of-prevalence-research-methods-see-p.-206-last-paragraph.pdf

She is an advisor to the CDC, FBI, Congress, and researchers around the world and promoting the idea that men cannot be raped by women. There was a proposal to explicitly include forced envelopment in the latest FBI update to the definition of rape but after a closed door meeting with her and N.O.W. lobbiests, it mysteriously disappeared. She has many many followers and fellow researchers that follow her methodology and quote her studies. That is where most people get the idea rape is just a man on woman crime. Men are fairly rarely penetrated and it is almost always by another man.

Most people talking about sexual violence refer to the "rape" (penetrated) numbers as influenced by Mary Koss's methodologies, but in the US the CDC also gathered the data for "made to penetrate" (enveloped) in the 2010, 2011, 2012, and 2015 NISVS studies.

As an example lets look at the 2011 survey numbers: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6308a1.htm

an estimated 1.6% of women (or approximately 1.9 million women) were raped in the 12 months before taking the survey

and

The case count for men reporting rape in the preceding 12 months was too small to produce a statistically reliable prevalence estimate.

vs

an estimated 1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey

and

Characteristics of Sexual Violence Perpetrators For female rape victims, an estimated 99.0% had only male perpetrators. In addition, an estimated 94.7% of female victims of sexual violence other than rape had only male perpetrators. For male victims, the sex of the perpetrator varied by the type of sexual violence experienced. The majority of male rape victims (an estimated 79.3%) had only male perpetrators. For three of the other forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims had only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (an estimated 82.6%), sexual coercion (an estimated 80.0%),

NISVS 2010 showed in the past 12 months, 1.1% of men were made to penetrate and 1.1% of women were raped. Table 2.1 & 2.2 on pages 18/19.

NISVS 2011 showed in the past 12 months, 1.7% of men were made to penetrate & 1.6% of women were raped. Table 1 on page 5.

NISVS 2012 showed in the past 12 months, 1.7% of men were made to penetrate & 1.0% of women were raped. Table A.1 & A.5 on pages 217/222.

NISVS 2015 showed in the past 12 months, 0.7% of men were made to penetrate & 1.2% of women were raped. Table 1 & 2 on pages 15/16.

Varies a bit from year to year, but pretty even overall. In both cases the four year annual percentages add up to five. The numbers for perpetrators vary a little from year to year too. Something like 79-84% of made to penetrate (nonconsensual envelopment) victims are victimized by women. Something like 96-99% of rape (nonconsensual penetration) victims are victimized by men. So in the 2010s, it averages out that a typical year has ~60% men & ~40% women as perpetrators of nonconsensual sex outside prisons rather than the 99:1 ratio discussed.

But since made to penetrate is not rape, the narrative is that men are rapists and women are victims and boys/men that are victims are victims of men. Therefore most of the gender studies folks create programs to teach men not to rape (e.g. /r/science/comments/3rmapx/science_ama_series_im_laura_salazar_associate/). Therefore there is justification for having gendered rape support services which means almost none for males victimized by females. These misleading stats are ammo to tell men to shut up about rape because 1 in 5 women are raped vs "only" 1 in 71 men and dismiss raped men because men are one group "nearly all the men were raped by other men" so somehow raped men are to blame because they are men...

If you don't like CDC data:

Scientific American: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known

A recent study of youth found, strikingly, that females comprise 48 percent of those who self-reported committing rape or attempted rape at age 18-19.

The Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/11/the-understudied-female-sexual-predator/503492/

a 2014 study of 284 men and boys in college and high school found that 43 percent reported being sexually coerced, with the majority of coercive incidents resulting in unwanted sexual intercourse. Of them, 95 percent reported only female perpetrators.

and

National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions found in a sample of 43,000 adults little difference in the sex of self-reported sexual perpetrators. Of those who affirmed that they had ‘ever forced someone to have sex with you against their will,’ 43.6 percent were female and 56.4 percent were male.”

Time: http://time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers

when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).

If my information is not enough, try reading these five threads by problem_redditor with lots more studies and references.

/r/MensRights/comments/oc2yp0/some_sources_on_sexual_abuse_of_men_and_boys_part/

Just maybe, rape isn't a gendered issue and we should stop treating it like one. But if we acknowledge that, then we would have to point the blame at "rapists", rather than "men".

Isn't just the US.

Feminists lobbied against gender neutral rape laws in India, so women are not rapists and men victimized by women are not rape victims. https://www.timesofindia.com/india/Activists-join-chorus-against-gender-neutral-rape-laws/articleshow/18840879.cms

So a woman physically forcing sex on a man is not a rape in India, but a man breaking an engagement after having sex with his fiancee is a rape.

Israeli feminists were concerned if a woman raping a man was recognized by law, a man could threaten to make false accusations against the woman after the man raped her in order to keep her from reporting. Apparently false accusations are a problem for women, so they fixed this by blocking the legislation that would have made rape a gender neutral crime.

https://m.jpost.com/Israel/Womens-groups-Cancel-law-charging-women-with-rape

Nepal feminists also blocked legislation there ...

Women’s rights activists had criticised the draft ordinance saying it wasn’t empathetic towards the plight of the victims. They said that having a provision saying even men could be victims of rape could could further weaken the women rape victims’ fight for justice.

https://kathmandupost.com/national/2020/12/11/ordinance-amends-law-on-rape-but-fails-to-recognise-rape-of-boy-child-and-sexual-minorities

Even if you only care about women, you should still stop women from raping because the majority of men convicted of raping women were sexually violated by adult women when they were boys. Multiple studies in the US, UK, and Canada have shown this. Around 10 of them cited here.

http://empathygap.uk/?p=1993#_Toc498111528

So women not raping, and rape by women being acknowledged as traumatic and treated with compassion, would probably stop a lot of women from getting raped in the future. That should matter if the goal is to stop women from getting raped rather than to demonize men.

[–]duhhhh 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Unlike your accusations, I simply wish we as a society look at gender neutral domestic violence data and provide gender neutral support instead of studies looking for violence against women only and providing help for women only, even to the detriment of women. The violence is pretty equal. The perception and resources are not due to feminists. Reality is women are slightly more likely to initiate physical violence and slightly more likely to be significantly injured during physical violence.

Almost 24% of all relationships had some violence, and half (49.7%) of those were reciprocally violent. In nonreciprocally violent relationships, women were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases.

Src: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/

Behind a paywall I have archived around, but Harvard research that women are more likely than men in starting or escalating domestic violence and those women are by far the women most likely to be injured in DV. That doesn't say all women injured are perpetrators themselves, but it does indicate the problem goes beyond the feminist/pop culture model of "violence against women".

It includes:

Almost 25% of the people surveyed — 28% of women and 19% of men — said there was some violence in their relationship. Women admitted perpetrating more violence (25% versus 11%) as well as being victimized more by violence (19% versus 16%) than men did. According to both men and women, 50% of this violence was reciprocal, that is, involved both parties, and in those cases the woman was more likely to have been the first to strike.

Read that one again and #BelieveWomen.

Src: http://archive.is/7vuUz

This is a long meta study that shows we've known domestic violence isn't gendered for decades. It is good analysis. It summarizes the results of dozens of studies across decades. Not ONE study. LOTS.

https://connect.springerpub.com/content/sgrpa/1/3/332 or the whole study here https://talkingback2restrainingorders.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/v71-straus_thirty-years-denying-evidence-pv_10.pdf

Popculture article -

https://thedailycounter.com/male-victims-of-domestic-violence-are-they-ignored/

Most domestic violence research today is research of "violence against women" from grants specifically looking for data on violence against women, not gender neutral research.

The rates of partner homicides didn't used to be that far apart. Then women got help and resources and the rate they killed their husbands dropped a lot. Men didn't get DV shelters they could use to protect their kids from their abuser without getting kidnapping charges giving the abuser an upper hand in custody, government funded help to allow them to get easy restraining orders, DV intervention public policy and programs that favored them, etc. Therefore the rate that husbands kill their wives hasn't dropped much. Maybe if we want to eliminate the desperate husbands in mutually abusive relationships killing their wives, we should give them better options. That would probably save a lot of women's lives just like doing it for women has saved a lot of mens lives.

"Gender Differences in Patterns and Trends in U.S. Homicide, 1976–2015" by James Alan Fox and Emma E. Fridel. The data comes from FBI statistics ("FBI's Supplementary Homicide Reports, SHR").

https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/vio.2017.0016?journalCode=vio&

Here's part of the conclusion that the authors came to:

Among all the results already reported, perhaps the most striking and important surrounds the trends in intimate partner homicide, particularly in the context of ongoing efforts to curtail domestic violence. Some researchers argue that the reduction in male intimate partner victimization, a decline of nearly 60% over the past four decades, is because of an increase in the availability of social and legal interventions, liberalized divorce laws, greater economic independence of women, as well as a reduction in the stigma of being the victim of domestic violence. Although at an earlier time a woman may have felt compelled to kill her abusive spouse as her only defense, she now has more opportunities to escape the relationship through means such as protective orders and shelters (Dugan et al. 1999; Fox et al. 2012). As a tragic irony, the wider availability of support services for abused women did not appear to have quite the intended effect, at least through the 1980s, as only male victimization declined.

Here is a graph of intimate partner homicides by sex over the years from the study. Notice the trend for women as they got help vs men that didn't?

https://m.imgur.com/a/6Hx9dJt

God forbid we help men, even if it would save womens lives.

I suggest you read the Overview section of Erin Pizzey's wikipedia page or one of her books. She was the founder of Refuge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erin_Pizzey

She created the worlds first domestic violence shelters. After opening several for women in the UK, she suggested that men were being abused too (often by women staying in her shelters) and men needed a shelter too. She was then slandered, her kids were threatened, her dog was killed, bricks were thrown through her windows, and she was removed from the DV organization she founded (now known as Refuge which has just recently lost funding for harming male victims for decades). She fled the country for her childrens safety and became an outspoken DV activist and anti-feminist once they moved out on their own.

That's what happens when a DV advocate tries to help men.

In the US, VAWA replaced the gender neutral Family Violence Prevention and Services Act giving extra rights/services to women and taking services/rights away from men and children. The funding and laws became very gendered. Many of the laws in the act were challenged in court and had to be rewritten. The funding is still very gendered 25 years later, so... We have lots of grants to study "violence against women" rather than gender neutral domestic violence, lots of grants to develop separate programs to "teach men not to rape" and "teach women to report rape", lots of perpetrator intervention programs for men but none for women, lots of DV resources for women but almost none for males over 12.

[+]Little-Thingy 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

It must be comfy to live in a world where your enemy is an easily defined female boogeyman. In reality - it's never that easy. I never said all laws where fair. I never said men don't experience sexual abuse. I never said feminism was perfect.

Do you realise just how ridiculous the notion of an all-woman anti-men conspiracy sounds? Do you realise that all that statistics and research you provided still shows that women are abused way more than men?

Ultimately - there is no point in arguing. You are confident you are correct, while i'm confident you are building the biggest starwman known to men. Strawman that, while built from actual haybales, fails in comparison to absolute seas of wheat that is female problems worldwide.

Let's just agree to disagree. I'm tired of arguing on this subreddit.

[–]phoenician_anarchist 4 points5 points6 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Guitar_nerd43121 points 3 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]phoenician_anarchist 4 points5 points6 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

lurk moar, scrub;

You appear to be new here, stick around, pay attention, and learn a thing or two before commenting on the state of things.

feminism != women;

Not all feminists are women, not all women are feminists. Many people make the mistake of conflating the two.

idea != identity.

An idea (feminism) is a choice, identity (man) is not. Us criticising feminism is not comparable to feminists attacking men.

Are we witnessing a transition from "They're not real feminists!" to "You're not real MRA's!"?

A common response to criticism of feminism is "They're not real feminists! Feminism is just about equality!", but lately I've seen more of "You're not real MRA's! You lot just complain about things, what men's rights activism have you done?"

Now that I type it out, I remember the latter being a common sentiment years ago.

[–]Little-Thingy -2 points-1 points0 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]sorebum405 5 points6 points7 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

You wanna get mad at feminists saying, “all men.” But then turn right back around and say, “Why do feminists do this that and the and the third.”

The difference is that being a man is not something that you choose.You are born male,and men are not inherently bad.That is why it is unreasonable and wrong to make negative generalization about men.Being a feminist is a choice.If you choose to subscribe to a hateful ideology it is reasonable to negatively generalize you.

There may be some people who identify as feminists that are just ignorant.So they may not have malicious intent,but if that is the case then they will renounce their feminist label once they know the truth.This subreddit has plenty of evidence to prove that feminism is not about equality,and people here are willing to debate and answer questions.So I think it is reasonable for us to negatively generalize feminists.

[–]Guitar_nerd43121 points 3 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Unnecessary_Timeline 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

Feminism started with women whispering their complaints to each other when WWII ended, because US women had to suddenly compete for employment against men returning from war.

It took like 15+ years of women quietly debating with eachother in order to for Feminism to actually develop an effective political movement. Do you really think this movement is 15 years old yet? My earliest interaction with it was probably around 2011.

The political framework to address men’s issues in the West is still gestating. It’s not ready yet. if anything, the Internet has slowed the progress of developing a cohesive platform for this movement, because everybody, everywhere, all over the planet, gets to have a say now. Whereas in the 60s and 70s it was just your neighborhood, or your city, that you had to convince.

Now to create a new political movement you have to at least convince your entire fucking nation, if not your entire continent. This is no longer a “picket outside your state legislature“ world. We’ve got to convince millions and millions more than Feminists in the 60s and 70s ever had to.

In summary: we are not yet at the action phase; this shit is still trying to develop a cohesive platform.

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Mainly because of the gender empathy gap which affects men. If you don't know what it means, I'll explain it to you. The gender empathy gap means that women heavily favor other women in general while men also favor women over their own gender although it's slightly less extreme. Add to that the "women are wonderful effect", it gets a lot worse for men. Add to that the fact that both the left wing and right wing are affected by both these things, people love women and hate men. Feminists aren't the ones who invented this of course, because it has existed for a long time before them, however, they did spread it further and amplified its effects. So yeah it's not a deliberate conspiracy on the part of society in general, but in the end it does have the same effect of putting men down worldwide. Oh and btw, and feminists have been a lot more successful than the "patriarchy". In fact even when the actual patriarchy existed, men were still oppressed and lacked a lot of rights and privileges and that still hasn't changed after centuries. Feminists trying to reaffirm gender roles for men but not for themselves explains this entirely.

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Title	Hypocrisy
Author	Guitar_nerd4312
Upvotes	0
Comments	89
Date	March 18, 2023 1:50 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/11ub4je/hypocrisy/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/hypocrisy.1180439 https://theredarchive.com/post/1180439

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