It's not about being feminine, it's about weakness.

YetAnotherCommenter · 2014-01-11T07:50:11+00:00

I do agree that a lot of contempt for feminine traits isn't necessarily a hatred of them for being feminine per se, but rather for them being weak or at least not effacious. Disdain for weakness isn't misogyny.

However, are we really "encouraging weakness" here?

First, what is "strong" and what is "weak" is a debated matter and quite frankly, traditional masculinity overemphasizes certain kinds of strength and tends to ignore or place less emphasis on other kinds (or even hold them in disdain). "Capability" is strong, but men can get socially emasculated for being capable at, say, playing the violin.

Second, crying is not necessarily weakness. The simple fact is sometimes people have to deal with shitty things and they need to vent and sometimes need some damn comfort. Let's just say a man cries after he sees his beloved son get run over by a car... is he weak?

Third, strength may be good, but traditionally men are expected to use this strength for specific purposes - protection and provision of others, particularly women and children. Combine this with the fact that male sufferring is seen as "not a big deal" and you get the recipie for male disposability. I agree with you that strength is good for helping people live their own lives, but the socially prevalent code of masculinity sees strength as good because it is good for others - these are very different attitudes and ideals.

I agree that it is a good thing to encourage strength in all people, and I agree that various kinds of strength exist and do need to be encouraged. But traditional masculinity has a bizarrely narrow and utterly irrational view of "strength" which serves to make men into disposable servants.

Fetishizing weakness is bad, but questioning the socially-prevalent ideal of 'male strength' is hardly the same as fetishizing weakness.

KenpatchiRama-Sama · 2014-01-11T15:39:36+00:00

Try telling a male friend that he has masculine legs, how will he take it? Then try telling a female friend that she has masculine legs, will her reaction be the same?

People dont want to be perceived as something they arent

edtastic · 2014-01-11T17:49:30+00:00

" I'm concerned we may sometimes encourage weakness in the MRM."

There was a exellent video by Alison Tieman on the subject of women using the appearance of lacking agency as a source of power. Men have to learn how to do the same at least so that we can elevate the pain and suffering of men to the same level of women's. We need more stories of men suffering at the hands of women not less, and the fact that men suffer is not proof they are weak, it's proof they are human.

Men don't always have agency. They are quite often victims in the truest since trapped between a rock and a hard place where they are forced to tolerate being abused to avoid some other dreadful consequence. These men will bravely suffer these indignities until that hard place becomes unbearable. That's when men finally report the abuse but we want them to do it sooner. Getting them to lower the bar does imply they will be less stoic, but what's the point of being stoic if it's used to paint you as a abusive monster who never needs protection and is thus unworthy of sympathy of compassion.

Men need the freedom and right to be as vulnerable as women if they so choose and be respected the same as women when they do so. That would be equal.

not_just_amwac · 2014-01-11T17:51:04+00:00

I see nothing wrong with crying to express emotion. The first time I saw my father cry was the one time he talked about the friends he lost in Vietnam. The last time my father saw me cry was when my childhood dog died.

The crying I do have a problem with is crying as an alternative to dealing with a problem or as an emotional manipulation tactic.

fia_bui · 2014-01-11T14:16:43+00:00

Sometimes people need to cry, why would you argue the male suicide rate is so much higher than the female one?

Admitting you need help isn't weakness, pretending you don't isn't strength.

Edit: Just to be clear, I've alot of respect for tough individuals of either gender, and little time for precious snowflakes, but tears ducts evolved for a reason. Everyone has their breaking point no matter how badass they are.

Arn13 · 2014-01-11T16:22:14+00:00

I look at a guy crying and I think to myself "man the fuck up".

The $1M question: do you think and feel the same thing when you look at a girl crying? If no, you still hold men and women to different standards.

MRA's want gender equality. Obviously that means men and women should be held to the same standard, but we haven't quite figured out what that standard should be. Should women be held to the men's standard, so that everyone who cries is a pussy? We might as well outlaw crying then. Or should men be held to the women's standard, so that everyone who cries gets lots of attention and care? Nobody would get anything done in such a society, and women would probably have a hard time getting turned on.

I think this is a main problem with the message of the MRM to the world. It's all good when we see double standards in our society: all MRA's expose and disapprove of them, so that's a coherent message. But when it comes to presenting an alternative - how should society be - the MRM is incoherent because one part insists we should all take responsibility like men, while another insists we should all be allowed to be open about our needs and be taken care of like women.

OP seems to be part of the first camp. I think neither of the camps really has the solution. We need to find a new set of equal standards that are not overly harsh on everyone, but that also don't quench productivity and male attractiveness. This could be a problem since the current set of double standards evolved in combination with female hypoagency and hypergamy - as topjimmy describes below, women aren't turned on by weak men. The expectation that men should take up more responsibility than women is ingrained in our mating system. That directly contradicts equal standards. This is the core of our problem.

One of the possible solutions is accepting that the system pushes men to deal with harsher standards, but giving them according rewards and benefits, and possibly extra support systems that help them deal. So maybe as a man you can't cry at your office job and you have to carry more and heavier boxes - but you should get something extra in return. Unfortunately in the current climate, whatever that extra is, it will be labeled as misogyny, sexism, male chauvinism, old boys network, etc.

I don't know the solution, but the first step is getting society to recognize the harsher standards that men face. Systems such as male hyperagency, female hypergamy, and the in-group bias towards women. Once people can acknowledge that men usually have to do the hard work, we can start debating how that should be balanced.

rightsbot · 2014-01-11T07:28:17+00:00

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eggoChicken · 2014-01-11T07:50:03+00:00

"...and I disagree with the fundamentals of your ideology." I was so into your rant until this part. Both groups fundamentals are the same "True Gender Equality." If you can acknowledge that the Feminist movement wants that and that you just disagree with them about certain things (like using the word pussy to call someone weak) then you'll be making the same progress that your asking them to make.

Assuming all feminist are a bunch of hateful females trying to chop men's dicks off because you've met a few bad seeds is no better than them judging MR because some of the members think date rape is acceptable.

I've said it once and I'll say it again. These two groups could unite and make shit happen, but this bickering and finger pointing is getting nobody anywhere.

Dullahan3470 · 2014-01-11T17:23:45+00:00

This is something that I try to live by and it may sound preachy but I don't mean to offend anyone.

As I've grown into manhood I used to have a lot of concerns about how others saw me. I was afraid of people misconstruing me as a pussy, a homosexual or a coward, but I was never the boastful type to "prove" my masculinity by fighting or manwhoring myself to women.(Very common in men without role models). Instead I withdrew and was extremely closed off and introverted.

At some point though after reaching rock bottom and through some rough experiences emotionally I changed. I began to define myself how I wanted to be. I stopped caring what other people saw me as and realized the only way I would be happy was to define myself.

I view manhood not as a trope of the stoic, emotionless and self-sacrificial man weathering the world, but as one who embodies his beliefs regardless of what anyone thinks.

I'm not afraid to cry in public, because if I feel like crying I'm damned well going to. I'm not afraid of being emotionally intimate with male friends because I have needs for camaraderie and friendship and I won't deny them. I'm not afraid to show weakness of any kind, or expose myself as vulnerable, because what anyone else thinks is irrelevant to me. The people who love and respect me will not judge me.

So is there societal/cultural expectations and definitions? Absolutely, we live in a culture of icons and characters barely resembling real people and it warps peoples expectations for real men. But as men, you should not let those views daunt you from being the man you want to be. You will never change society to fit yourself, and changing yourself to fit society will only harm you. Be you, don't give a fuck what anyone else thinks.

warsie · 2014-01-11T19:12:42+00:00

I know other people have noticed this and commented and this seems to be a tradcon POV.....

Deadpoolgoesboop · 2014-01-11T07:33:52+00:00

Nail on the head, my friend.

unexpecteditem · 2014-01-11T08:17:18+00:00

Shit! That was good shit.

SacUp · 2014-01-11T07:36:27+00:00

P.S. could we maybe stop encouraging said weakness? I don't want to live in a world where EVERYONE is a whiny little bitch. I want to live in a world where everyone handles their shit. I want to live in a world where strength is encouraged for everyone...not just the physical or emotional kind, but strength of character.

SOLD. Here's your upvote.

2014-01-11T13:54:07+00:00

"but have been debating whether or not it's a bit too controversial to discuss. But, I've been drinking, so fuck it."

haha best quote ever.

Didalectic · 2014-01-11T22:35:26+00:00

Exactly, I was always weirded out be the comments here discussing how not being able to show your emotions is worth fighting against. Crying is literally a cry for help from others, for mommy or someone else to come and help you. But actually giving in on that cry learns or conditions that person to cry more easily. What he/she should be taught is that they need to be able to handle their own shit. Take responsibility and suffer the consequences for whatever you may have done, so that you will act differently the next time.

As an example I take the, often teenage female student that during her test cries and gets the teacher all sympathetic, so that she wont fail the test but can retake it or what-not. BULLSHIT. You get to cry with severe loss and or pain, that's it. Crying over anything that you could have prevented and did not result in the last two things is bullshit.

The_Cockpit · 2014-01-11T10:26:14+00:00

I gotta agree. I don't need to get in touch with my feminine side. I cry if I feel the need, I drink cocktails, hell I even really liked the hunger games. But I'm stoic. Stoic as fuck. I'm the pillar of strength for people around me. I'm the man who's presence screams "don't fuck with us" and I enjoy being this. It IS my role to act as the "made from stone" protector of my wife and anyone else who is not as strong or well equipped as me to stand against those who would harm them. This is actually why I help you guys. I don't need the MRM, but dammit you need men like me.

2014-01-11T17:18:47+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Title	It's not about being feminine, it's about weakness.
Author	The_Patriarchy
Upvotes	22
Comments	69
Date	January 11, 2014 7:27 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1uy4ar/its_not_about_being_feminine_its_about_weakness/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/its-not-about-being-feminine-its-about-weakness.1005001 https://theredarchive.com/post/1005001

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