Just a question.

Mitthrawnuruodo1337 · 2015-03-10T21:00:24+00:00

1) These are not always the same people making these claims.

2) If they are the same people, those claims are not necessarily mutually exclusive. One can criticize that the definition of rape is too broad while simultaneously pointing out that it is not evenly applied.

3) I don't know many that would make the blanket claim "men (and presumably women?) should have the option of sleeping with someone who is intoxicated and that this should not qualify as rape". What is usually argued that there is some fuzziness in how drunk, and whether or not the drunk party was taken advantage of vs just made a poor decision, or whether or not they were mutually drunk.

What you are seeing is mostly what we perceive as an attack on male sexuality. Men are presumed to be sexual aggressors in all cases, so if both parties are drunk, the man is presumed to make the poor decision to rape while the female's poor decisions cannot even be analyzed because she was a victim of rape. This, even if the circumstances are extraordinarily symmetric. Consequently, we are generally critical of assertions that men are rapists when there is the possibility that they are not, while at the same time critical of the assumption that women are not rapists when there is the possibility that they are.

As a bit of an aside, this is why I identify as an MRA and not a egalitarian. I believe in equality; I even believe that women are in many ways still discriminated against, but I see the momentum of legal and social pressures very much moving well past equality and into the realm of being anti-male. So yes, that is a reactive position, but I find that without that reaction, the issue skips examination.

rapiertwit · 2015-03-10T21:16:41+00:00

In a nutshell, there are two camps. One embraces the feminist view of what is rape or sexual assault, but wants it applied both ways. The other camp still thinks the rules should be applied both ways, but does not agree that drunk-but-enthusiastic sex is rape, or that going from 1st base to 2nd base without a verbal check-in is sexual assault, for instance.

And then there are more than a few jackoffs who will bounce flippantly to whichever stance is convenient to complain about something some feminist said on Twitter.

ParanoidAgnostic · 2015-03-11T01:23:47+00:00

The general MRM position is that the definition of rape has been broadened too far and that calls to reduce the burden of proof for rape accusations are unjust.

The position on male victims is that, even when you look at scenarios which should be rape by any definition (when the victim is underage or being threatened) male victims are not taken seriously.

We do not complain that men are not being taken seriously when they claim rape after drunken sex, except to illustrate the imbalance in calling it rape only if the woman is the drunk party.

TRPACC · 2015-03-10T21:55:28+00:00

We argue that under current definitions of rape, most rapes of men are excluded.

TRPACC · 2015-03-10T22:06:11+00:00

I think you are assuming male victims are in equal numbers in forced sex only because of the intoxication definition ... and while I'm not 100% I think this is incorrect.

Subtracting all the men and women that answered that they had sex they didn't want to because they were intoxicated would still leave you with roughly equal numbers of men and women that are forced to have sex.

2015-03-10T21:01:58+00:00

But, you seem to also have MRAs who say that definitions of rape have gone too far, eliminating many "sexual options" for men. MRAs oppose the idea of "rape culture" and argue that men (and presumably women?) should have the option of sleeping with someone who is intoxicated and that this should not qualify as rape.

I've never heard that.

The things I've heard are:

That the definition of "rape" has extended to things like "well, I changed my mind"
That the definiton of "rape" no longer needs any burden of proof, just "her word"
That a man is expected to CONSTANTLY ASK A GIRL WHILE FUCKING HER IF SHE'S STILL INTO IT
That any circumstance other than a 0% BAC is rape

are bullshit.

But I don't think you'll get any complaints about "dude, she's three quarters passed out, drag her into this alleyway" being called rape.

You will find, however, two people liquored up to buggery doing each other, but HE's the rapist and she isn't - is not cool.

DavidByron2 · 2015-03-10T21:21:07+00:00

This position within the MRM I agree with (as do most of the feminists I interact directly with.)

I doubt that since it's the feminists who created these discriminatory rules to begin with and who are lobbying to continue with them.

MRAs oppose the idea of "rape culture"

Rape culture (I assume you endorse it) is a hate movement's conspiracy theory intended to denigrate men as a birth group. It's like going around saying Jews own all the banks. That's the sort of person you are if you're a feminist.

This seems to be a glaring contradiction

How have those two things got anything to do with each other?

pointing out that regardless of the exact definition of rape, men are raped about as often as women are, but male victims are ignored
pointing out that feminists have abusively expanded the definition of rape beyond anything reasonable.

Sigh. I guess I understand why you think they are the same. To you, rape is a zero sum game of victimry. So it's good for feminism if they can massively increase the overall amount of rape reported, and good for feminism if you exclude all mention of male victims. Both are good for you, so you think they are the same. Then you assume we're like you. We aren't. But you figure we are so we must want to do the opposite, ie make out no women are raped and massively expand the amount of rape reported.

We aren't you. We don't go around saying all women are rapists. We aren't bigots who denigrate an entire birth group as dangerous and immoral.

Do you know that under current feminist definitions a wife who wakes her husband up with a blow job is a rapist? You guys are just absurd and abusive. And by the way? The actual legal definition of rape doesn't YET say you can't sleep with someone who is drunk.

You feminists max the rate of reporting of female rape by including things like "attempted rape" and "drunk sex" which isn't legally rape and reporting the total as this 1 in 5 women figure (actually 18%), but you of course never mention that the same sort of calculation would show even more men are raped. You pretend men can't be raped at all. But the break down is about the same either way. You throw out drunk sex, or "attempted" rape you still get more men raped.

EyeRedditDaily · 2015-03-10T21:20:02+00:00

I can only speak for myself, don't know to what extent other here agree.

My basic viewpoint is that "consent is consent". So long as that consent isn't given under some type of threat, consent is valid. It isn't my responsibility to give a breathalyzer or blood test to every potential partner and then assess whether or not the consent they have granted is valid. I may choose to opt out of sex if I question the validity of their consent, but legally, I shouldn't be held responsible for doing anything "wrong" so long as that consent was granted.

So that is my true view on the topic. However, if a case is brought up where a woman has had sex with an intoxicated man, I'm not above making a comment along the lines of "hope he reported that to the cops; sounds like rape to me". I'm not making that statement because I believe it. I'm making that statement to point out the ridiculousness and hypocrisy of those who claim that any time a drunk woman has sex she has been raped.

TL;DR - Contradictory statements are made because one is the actual belief, and the other is to point out the hypocrisy of feminists.

MRSPArchiver · 2015-03-10T20:47:42+00:00

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guywithaccount · 2015-03-11T06:45:41+00:00

How much alcohol (or other recreational drug) does it take to erase a woman's agency?

According to some feminists, even one drink is enough. Others would say that where a man and woman are equally drunk and have sex, the man is guilty of rape and the woman not, and that it is the man's duty to gauge whether the woman is capable of consenting to sex (but not vice-versa). And this is the standard being pushed in schools and (to a lesser extent) everywhere else in society.

Still other feminists are encouraging people to automatically believe any rape accusation made by a woman, even long after the rape supposedly took place, even when contradictory evidence suggests that it was not rape or that no sex actually occurred at all - but at the same time they are loath to extend this same trust to men, saying that men would abuse it (by making false rape accusations) while claiming that women never make false rape accusations, or even if they do, they don't do it enough for it to influence policies that deny men due process. All this after feminist studies for decades have hidden the truth about male victims and female rapists by ignoring, avoiding, or recontextualizing the data.

A massive push to criminalize normal, healthy male sexual behavior is happening in the context of a society that continues to perpetuate traditional gender roles when it comes to dating, forcing men to initiate contact with women but then accusing and punishing them if they step outside a line that is both blurry and tightly-drawn, while at the same time allowing women to act with reckless abandon or ill intent and push their own responsibilities and the consequences of their choices onto those same men.

And where are the kangaroo courts for college women who have sex with drunk men, standing ready to expel them on the slightest provocation? What woman's social network, schooling, career, even life is ruined by an accusation of rape made against them - regardless of whether it's true or false? Where are the women who have no choice but to take the initiative to meet men and bed them - but who, at the same time, are under constant threat of being called a creep, harasser, molester, or rapist... possibly by someone they liked and trusted, weeks or months after the fact? Where are the women who are beaten and killed because they were accused of rape? Where is the equality?

So yes, we favor equal treatment for all victims of rape at the same time we oppose the new anti-male puritanism. This is not a contradiction; it is a recognition of the yawning inequality between the way men and women are viewed as sexual beings and the assumptions and expectations forced on them by society.

Title	Just a question.
Author	Zakiahthewolf
Upvotes	0
Comments	23
Date	March 10, 2015 8:47 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/2ylmkm/just_a_question/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/just-a-question.986151 https://theredarchive.com/post/986151

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