Levels of suffering

BuyOk5222 · 2024-06-12T09:29:32+00:00

What did you base the numbers off of?

GAMESnotVIOLENT · 2024-06-12T09:49:15+00:00

If you want to quantify suffering, then just use suicide rates. Well, would you look at that: men do it 80% more often. Suicide is a pretty blatant indicator of suffering, right? Therefore, I'd argue men sit at about double the number you suggest if we use something approximating actual data and not just guesswork.

Of course, once you add higher rates of undereducation, incarceration, homelessness, work deaths, work accidents, parental alienation, war deaths, war injuries, etc., then my 180-ish figure starts looking like a lowball.

aircoft · 2024-06-12T11:05:03+00:00

Does a higher number of "arbitrary units" equate to more suffering or less suffering?

Johntoreno · 2024-06-12T09:48:07+00:00

Suffering is relative, sometimes you can have everything some other guy wants and still suffer in agony because you don't have what you desire. Most SSRIs are taken by women and women also make up majority of the therapy patients, this is proof that most Women aren't exactly happy.

Men obviously have a harder time navigating Society because of empathy gap but women definitely do seem to suffer due to their own unfulfilled needs. After all, Feminism wouldn't be such a popular movement if large swathes of Women weren't miserable about something in life.

Conscious_Luck1256 · 2024-06-12T10:14:24+00:00

you cant quantify suffering.

Net_Flux3 · 2024-06-12T09:19:25+00:00

Over 9000. And I'm not even memeing.

hendrixski · 2024-06-12T12:44:02+00:00

The average conscripted man suffers 1,000,000,000,000 arbitrary units due to gender based discrimination in military conscription.

The father who escapes his abusive wife and then has his children taken away suffers 1,000,000,000 arbitrary units due to gender discrimination in the family court system.

The average male criminal who is more likely to be suspected by police than the average female criminal, more likely to be charged than a woman who commits the same crime, more likely to be indicted, more likely to be found guilty and more likely to be given are longer prison sentence, than a woman who committed the same crime. That's got to be a couple thousand arbitrary units.

The average gay couple who want reproductive rights but surrogacy contracts are either illegal in their for gay and single men, or are simply unenforced leaving them and their newborns to become victims of extortion from the surrogate mother. That's also a couple thousand arbitrary units of suffering that is unique to men. Women will never have those units.

I have an idea: let's not make either men or women have to suffer more arbitrary units of suffering than what the other gender has to suffer. Let's mandate 50/50 custody, let's mandate the draft and frontline assignments to be gender equal. Let's admit that all human beings commit crime at the same rate regardless of race, gender, creed, or sexual orientation and then fix disparities in suspicion, apprehension, and sentencing so that our prison population starts to look like our general population. I know that equality is a radical idea, but why don't we give it a shot?

duhhhh · 2024-06-12T13:16:14+00:00

Why do you view this as men vs women vs at the individual level? IMO you are caught up in an identity politics mindset and don't see people as individuals. Even at the individual level, it breaks down further. In some areas of my life I've been very privileged. In other areas of my life I've been very much a victim. Do my areas of privilege erase my victimhood or does my victimhood erase my privilege? I don't think so. I think I've had it good in some areas of life and bad in others through luck and society.

TenuousOgre · 2024-06-12T15:39:35+00:00

So you're assuming that women, on average, experience more suffering? I take it you are a woman? I can’t speak to anyone's experience but mine. But I think there are a lot of statistics and history we can look at to determine the relative level. Things like:

Suicide - men commit suicide several times more often than women though women attempt it more but use far less immediately lethal means. Many psychiatrists have said when men decide to self delete, they are looking for a way out from an intolerable reality, while for many women it's a cry for attention, which partly explains why men and women choose different methods. Men also go for more traumatic because we see it as a way to achieve success, while women use methods that won’t be so painful, and won't destroy their beauty. Men don't bother with that consideration.
Pregnancy and periods - no question women suffer more here. There are compensations such as having children that most women say offset these, but the suffering is still there.
Job related injuries and death - by far this is men. Women simply don't do work that is as dangerous, laborious, or injury prone as men.
Homelessness - far more men are homeless than women, and there are far fewer shelters and support programs to help men. Yes, some women suffer greatly in this fashion, more so in third world countries. But there too, men are more likely to be homeless. Simply put, women are more protected and cared for than men. Men are expected to solve it themselves.
Sexual assault - here we've heard for decades that women are far more the victims. But recent studies have shown this is not the case, and it was due to using Duluth model where women simply are victims and men are simply perpetrators. More recent studies have shown that men and women who commit SA have different approaches and different types of victims. So I don't know how to evaluate it. Which is more suffering, a young boy (10) groomed for 3 years then SA'd by his teacher everyday for a year. Or an uncle doing the same thing to his niece who is 13 when he starts and it lasts the same amount to time? To me it seems about equal.
Domestic violence - here too we find the Duluth model for decades gave us a false narrative. Turns out men and women are equally likely to be the aggressor. There are situations where it is co-perpetrator or single perpetrator. And situations that in the past were counted as male DV when the man after decades of minor to moderate physical and emotional abuse lashes out and breaks his wife/gf jaw. New studies report that as her being the perpetrator and him the victim. Women by far are more emotionally abusive and manipulative, but men do far more damage when they are the aggressors. So how do we weigh who suffers more?
Murder - feminists all love to point to how many women murdered at the hand of their SO as if that's the only measure. In terms of who gets murdered more often, it's men. Women get murdered more at the hands of their SO, but men self delete more because of the emotional and physical abuse of their SO. So how do we evaluate this?
War - men suffer conscription, women don’t. Women have suffered rape and pillage more in the past than today, most modern militaries don't allow or enable this like they did centuries ago. Men have suffered far, far more injuries, crippling, and death. Like thousands to every women for most of the past few centuries.
Day-to-day - before we start can we at least admit that modern household chores are far less laborious than they used to be due to all the labor-saving devices like HVAC, running water, toilets, dishwashers, vacuums, clothes and other products to buy rather than make, and the myriad cleaning products and services? Women used to have so much more labor just preparing food and cleaning clothes, making clothes and such. Men had far more labor in cutting wood for fires, building huts, hunting food or farming. I think we have far less suffering now than at any point in the past for both men and women so can we call this a draw? There are two ideas normally brought up in the modern narrative, emotional (next item) and unpaid labor. Studies have shown people routinely underestimate what their partner does and over estimate what they do. They have also shown that how men and women approach a task and finish it can lead to wildly different evaluations for completing the same task. For example, the man may clean the bathroom, focusing on it, using harder scrubbing, but see less dirt than the woman. But she will do a bit of cleaning, then several other things including talking on the phone or social media. So he reports 20 min. to clean and she reports an hour. But when considering only time spent on the bathroom it’s much closer.
Emotional labor - women and men have very different ways to categorize tasks, time, and they hold their emotional responses in very different light. So how do we judge who suffers more, the man who worries, works extra to provide family with more income but never says anything to his worries or stress to his wife, or the wife who worries, complains about the times he's gone and justifiably feels more stressed because she's the sole parent at home more, but she shares with her husband and expects his emotional support while offering none or very little to him. Who suffers more?
Overall fear - women win this one hands down right now, but not because they have more to fear than men. But because there's more feminists propaganda painting men as evil and women as needing to be afraid. So women suffer more but a lot of what they suffer is in response to inflated reporting and fib decades of propaganda to paint men in a bad light. Men suffer from this too but it’s never acknowledged (and has pushed self deletion for men higher).
Life expectancy - men have less worldwide, but in the U.S. the numbers have dropped even more the last few decades because our health isn't given priority, our mental health is basically ignored as a group. And a lot of the factors I’ve already mentioned. So how much does living an extra decade offset som of the fear mongering? I don't know but it brings up the question whether suffering is limited to actual harm or does artificial suffering count?

Does the person who consumes only conspiracy social media and is thus in a perpetual state of panic really suffer? Or is that self-caused suffering? Does the man who’s told all his life that everything wrong with the world is his fault really suffer, or is all external caused suffering?

WannabeLeagueBowler · 2024-06-12T15:40:27+00:00

Need a third point of reference. Or how about go by dollars instead of arbitrary units? Being a woman is like having 3 times the income on average maybe. So 33:100. A lot of women are pretty much in the same boat as men financially, but with advantages like being in control of the spending, or not being the breadwinner, more social resources, etc...

It's hard to factor in things like mental anguish from discrimination, loss of foreskin, etc... but I think money is the great equalizer. A man who earns 100k a year might trade places with a woman who earns $33k or above. A woman who earns $33k a year would not consider trading places with a man unless he earned $100k or above, because even at $33k she has access to a higher lifestyle.

Title	Levels of suffering
Author	McIntosh812
Upvotes	0
Comments	20
Date	June 12, 2024 9:10 AM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1de28s0/levels_of_suffering/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/levels-of-suffering.1521330 https://theredarchive.com/post/1521330

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