MGTOWs Discourage Me From Being An MRA. Help?

jesterace · 2014-09-01T14:59:28+00:00

What you perceive to be anti-woman, is anti-gynocentrism.

MGTOWs are skeptical. That's all there is to it. While there may be women like your grandmother, they have every incentive to be like your mother. The system as it exists encourages it. Many face no repercussions and some are even rewarded for behaving that way. With that knowledge, why should we gamble with our lives and place faith in the honour system in the hopes that we get someone who is like your grandmother (which is a rarity on its own), but more importantly hope that she doesn't turn into someone like your mother down the road?

With the exception of the honey badgers, every woman, feminist, anti-feminist have proven to be gynocentric and are only looking out for themselves as individuals or as a collective first and foremost. Hell, even most men are gynocentric. Anything that does not focus on women, is secondary and must not take away from women in any way for it to exist.

These terms are unacceptable to us.

Asahiii · 2014-09-01T14:48:17+00:00

I disagree with a lot of what you have said. The first thing being that "the MRM doesnt stand up for womens rights". The MRM doesnt stand up for feminism, but that's a different proposition. Saying that a very specific, ideological perception of women's rights is wrong, that is not the same thing as saying women dont deserve rights, or the ability to discuss their own problems in a personal, public, political or legislative way. It's the ideology of feminism that is at fault, not women or their rights.

The second thing is that you write off all MGTOWs as being misogynistic, however the primary belief of MGTOWs isnt that women are evil, it is that we live in a system so biased towards the needs and wants of women, especially in any instance of conflict between women and men, that is is simply not feasible, not worth it, to enter into any traditional, meaningful, or long term relationship with a woman, and so men should do their own thing. Also included would be the idea that men have for so long pandered to the desires of women, to women's ideas concerning what men should be and do, that it is about time for men to renounce these ideas and form their own definitions of what they should be, and of what should constitute a fulfillling existence. None of this is misogynistic.

Of course the MGTOWs, like the MRM and the PUAs, attract people that just dont like women, in the same way that feminism attracts a lot of people that just don't like men. What you should do is look at the ideas themselves, decide whether or not you agree with them, and then decide if you want to be a part of, or contribute to, any movement. What you shouldnt do is allow yourself to be outraged by any idiocy on either side that will detract from an objective understanding of what the movement itself is about.

As an aside, I'm not an MGTOW and I find a lot of MGTOWs to be rather depressing, vitriolic people, but that doesn't matter, and it doesn't mean I dont understand the movement and what it's aiming for.

phengineer · 2014-09-01T19:28:00+00:00

MGTOW will describe themselves as a totally decentralized movement with no serious requirements for who can identify as MGTOW. I've read a fair amount of MGTOW literature, and if pressed, I would say that I would describe myself as one.

For me, the philosophy is recognizing that the game of heterosexual relationships is stacked against me, and I'm just choosing not to play. In addition, I've seriously reevaluated what I value in life and what makes me happy. That doesn't mean I'm not interested in women, or that I wouldn't (seriously) date one. I've just decided that I don't need to date or sleep with women to make myself happy, and I don't consider who I date as a metric by which I value my success as a person. (Ironically I've found that this exact attitude seems to make me more desirable to women and some have started chasing me).

Summary: I'm MGTOW, but I don't hate or avoid women. I just don't consider sex or relationships to be a life driving goal and don't allow hetrosexual sex politics to hold any power over me.

Bla34112 · 2014-09-01T19:38:59+00:00

Well, I think your view of MGTOWs is a little odd.

I'd consider myself one, but I understand it very differently. In no way do I understand MGTOWs as: Fuck women!

I'm in a very happy relationship with a wonderful woman, I think my mother is a lovely person as are most of the women in my life. They all have their faults, but that's only human. All 'MGTOW' means to me is that women aren't faultless goddesses, and that they do not necessarily deserve my support just for being women. If I choose to support one in any way, I expect a willingness on their part to do the same. It's a rejection of the male side of patriarchal gender roles in a non-feminist way.

Now, the thing is that an ideological stance that opens women up to criticism and scrutiny is gonna attract a certain amount of actual misogynists. Fuck those people, they're not with us. They're MGTOWs, but only because the qualifications needed to carry the label: 'MGTOW' is very low.

It's not a political movement, it's just a personal policy.

Ransom_Stoddard · 2014-09-01T21:40:34+00:00

Nothing will move the MRM issues to the front faster than the complete abandonment of women and the disinterest in their quality of life and survival, which is completely legal and moral considering what they've done to boys and men.

It's a form of tough love I suppose. Like repairing a spoiled child by removing their entitlements.

If you disagree, show me the law that states I have to lift a finger to assist a woman or be concerned for her.

They've made their beds and should lie in them.

Every day we sit here and watch and discuss what they do and say that destroys boys and mem... harms, steals from, marginalizes, abuses, injures, murders and drives boys and men to suicide.

Give me one reason why I should piss on one to douse the flames if she were dying on fire on the ground in front of me... just one.

They should be policing themselves, but where have they been the last 100+ years?

We are only seeing a couple of them speaking out now... because men are walking away from them in MGTOW fashion.

You cannot trust female nature combined with the absolute power the State has awarded them.

redgreenyellowblu · 2014-09-01T22:33:09+00:00

Glad to see another gay guy distancing himself from feminism!

I don't understand why MGTOWs would be subjected to so much criticism and scrutiny. They aren't trying to make women change or change the current arrangement. They aren't trying to force "the patriarchy" on women. They're just opting out of legal arrangements with women. It would make no difference then whether some dislike women or not. And, others here already explained how you've kind of mischaracterized the MGTOW movement in that regard.

It's kind of like the political lesbians of the 70s. Where's the problem there? Rather than trying to make a straight marriage fit the mold of their ideal, they just opted out. That's a choice I can fully respect. It makes no difference to me whether they are motivated purely by ideology or by personal resentments toward men. They weren't trying to force anything on a man, and that's cool. Now, they were also lambasting and demonizing other women as traitors for marrying men. And that's one big difference between feminists and the MRM. Try finding one MGTOW that calls another man a traitor for following his heart and having a girlfriend or marrying a woman. You won't find one.

apathos_destroys · 2014-09-01T16:51:34+00:00

To be honest, I've never felt comfortable with labels. If I were to introduce myself I'd simply say "hi, I'm /u/apathos _ destroys".

It has always seemed to me that people use political labels to identify who is in what camp. It promotes an "us vs. Them" mentality that takes attention away from the actual issues.

Legolas-the-elf · 2014-09-01T18:31:45+00:00

The problem I have is that it seems like MGTOWs still make up a fair size of the MRM

I don't think that's remotely true. MGTOW seem to be a small fringe. Where did you get the idea that they were bigger than that?

many MRAs also accept MGTOWs as part of the movement

I really don't see MRAs talking about them much at all.

the MRM doesn't seem much better than feminism.

Then be egalitarian instead of choosing a gendered movement.

xNOM · 2014-09-01T21:22:29+00:00

Who the hell cares what you call yourself? Research the facts. Decide which changes you support, and fuck all the labels.

questionnmark · 2014-09-01T22:26:31+00:00

I don't think of them as being automatically a part of the MHRM as such by being MGTOW. If they are an MRA then that is different and aside from being a MGTOW, and if they are an MGTOW that is not the same as being an MRA. I think if there is one lesson that can be learnt from feminism's failure is that we can't just create a big umbrella group and stick everyone inside, and being held responsible for their actions by outsiders, and then saying 'NAMRAALT' (Not all men's rights activists are like that'.

Adrelinen · 2014-09-01T23:07:05+00:00

Don't align yourself with any movement if you disagree with any part of it.

Pick and choose the specific events/actions you want to support. Otherwise you'll end up involved with somethings that you might actually be strictly against.

You don't need to be an MRA in order to support equal rights for men, in the same way as you don't need to be a feminist to support equal rights for women.

MRSPArchiver · 2014-09-01T14:02:06+00:00

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Claireah · 2014-09-02T10:08:02+00:00

It would seem I definitely had the wrong impression of MGTOWs. I agree 100% that it can be dangerous to get into a LTR with a woman in the world we live in now. They have too many ways to screw men over, especially if a divorce ever comes around. The only real problem here was that it seemed like MGTOWs were misogynistic and the MRM accepted them as part of the group, which was worrisome. However, it seems that was wrong. The reasons to be a MGTOW are very valid and even though it doesn't have much direct impact on me since I'm gay, it's still one reason why I became an MRA. Now that I know more about MGTOWs, I can properly weed out the misogynists hiding behind the MGTOW label without thinking they are all like that.

therock6658 · 2015-02-15T09:57:18+00:00

You are absolutely right to be concerned about MGTOWs because you're assumptions about them are 100% correct. I've seen MGTOWs claim that women aren't human or that women are the "enemy". This is why I left the MGTOW movement as there has been an increase of this lately, not really helped much by the fact that Sandman makes videos every single damn day.

inc0gn3gr0 · 2014-09-01T15:01:23+00:00

I personally am not a fan of the whole MGTOW movement. They take a lot of what the MRM complains about and then essentially encourages men to cut themselves off from the other gender. They also bash women for having multiple partners. Yes, women having multiple partners is becoming more normal and it goes against male animal instincts. But it is unfair to bash them for it.

MGTOWs complain about issues of the state, but are often not in the vicinity of a vagina and WMD of the state (baby mortgages) does not apply to them.

This comes from the fact that they are in a position where they, either can't or do not know how to assert themselves. So they make up essentially a lifestyle encouraging themselves to continue doing the same things that constantly lead to failure. They blame women for their actions. They do not have the ability or the want to play the male rejection game.

IMO, MGTOWs are basically what the feminist movement would sound like if it were male oriented. Replace rape with gold digging and aggression with "scheming or vengeful".

The reason that MGTOW is somewhat accepted in the MRM is because MRAs (the ones I consider to be good ones) are often extremely nuanced in their approach. So we end up accepting a lot of points made by many different groups. This doesn't mean they are "one of us". Just because someone may represent something you do not like, doesn't mean every single word they speak is always wrong. The ability to find some sort of common ground actually produces progress.

Feminist on the other hand will go out of their way to make sure their narrative is controlled from top to bottom my them. There are some benefits to this as it becomes a cohesive concept. But it is also extremely anti-science. This is why so many feminist have a hard time dealing with descenting opinions. We have many women out there thinking that 17% of women are going to be sexually assaulted in their life. That is some pretty good fear mongering. We as MRAs point to valid statistics saying nah is more like .032%, because the federal government says so. We are labelled rape apologists. MGTOW do the same thing we say, "Hey, could you stop being so sexist". They respond with covering their ears and going "LAHLAH LAH, I haven't seen a vagina all my life".

But really I think most of your issue is how many MRAs tend to be accepting of concept or associated with concepts that are promoted by different groups. Think of it more like Islam, Judaism and Christianity, they all worship the same sky man. They even share some commonality but clearly have different approaches.

TRPACC · 2014-09-01T14:14:07+00:00

If you go to the mgtow forum you will find they are a tiny group.

My own theory about the kind of mgtow that became common there is that they are involuntarily celibate and in denial about it - hence the obsession with women while simultaneously claiming that women have forced them to swear off them.

Title	MGTOWs Discourage Me From Being An MRA. Help?
Author	Claireah
Upvotes	8
Comments	28
Date	September 1, 2014 2:01 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/2f6452/mgtows-discourage-me-from-being-an-mra-help/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/mgtows-discourage-me-from-being-an-mra-help.1620631 https://theredarchive.com/post/1620631

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