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My University started a Female-Only Coding workshop, I've started a petition to open it up to male students, too.

[deleted]

March 11, 2016

70 upvotes

https://www.change.org/p/birkbeck-university-of-london-codeforall-make-code-first-girls-accept-male-students#petition-letter

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Post Information

Title	My University started a Female-Only Coding workshop, I've started a petition to open it up to male students, too.
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	70
Comments	71
Date	March 11, 2016 12:27 AM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/49wcnw/my_university_started_a_femaleonly_coding/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/my-university-started-a-female-only-coding.954254 https://theredarchive.com/post/954254

Comments

[–]gsettle 20 points21 points22 points 10 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[+]TheBritishStereotype 10 years ago [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

Response from the University: "This workshop has not been designed to exclude male students but to develop a safe space for women to learn as other events may not be accessible to them. This event has been developed because other events on this topic may not be easily accessible to women"

[–]songofmyown 10 points11 points12 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]BetterBadIdeas 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]nanonan 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You could call them on it, but it will be tough to get anyone to listen. You would need to play them at their game. Kick up a fuss that they explicitly said there are events on the topic that are inaccessible to women, and query what they propose to do to make those events welcoming to everybody. Call out their segregation of the sexes as problematic, and that integration and working together in harmony is the best way to combat sexism in technology.

If you are an overachiever you could sidestep butting heads with departments directly by organising an unofficial workshop open to everyone. I'd approach faculty, assistants, tutors, senior students until I found someone willing to teach, I'd approach the computing department, library, student council groups to organise a space, and reinforce that it is inclusive and open to all.

Best of luck, this is a dangerous path to confront misandrists. Tread with caution, do not "what about the men" but more "what about everyone" and you should be safer. If you are (and you will be) called sexist, flip the tables, sing from their hymn sheet, get all intersectional. They are excluding black people, Muslim people, poor people, trans people. Try not to stick your neck out too far that it gets chopped though.

[–]TheBritishStereotype7 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Thank you for the advice, I will definitely be taking it on board.

I will start trying to contact some of the lecturers I'm on good terms with to work with me in creating a mixed-gender workshop.

I've been looking at Birkbeck's events and workshop schedule, and as far as I can see, there are no exclusively-male events at the University aside from sports teams, which are separated by gender.

This campaign will be centred around the "what about everyone" platform, hence the "#CodeForAll" name, as I've found that it is easier to garner a wide-range of support under that banner.

One of the most common arguments directed against me so far is that IT is a male-dominated field and so needs more female representation. However, here are some other male-dominated fields:

Bus Drivers
Cleaners
Farmers
Steel plant workers.

No campaigns to increase female representation in these fields, yet when its an air conditioned office with a nice salary all of a sudden there needs to be more women in the field.

Thanks for the advice, I will definitely be using it as a guideline.

[–]garglemesh42 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]andejoh 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheBritishStereotype1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]BullsLawDan 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[+]TheBritishStereotype 10 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

In the UK the legal powers to prosecute an organisation for discriminating on the grounds of gender are in the hands of the "Minister for Women's and equalities". Yup, I have a feeling they're not going to be too sympathetic to this....

[–]BullsLawDan 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]192873982 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]spankaway 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]thatlowdowndirty47 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]spankaway 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]thegrimraeper 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[+]TheBritishStereotype 10 years ago [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

Unfortunately there's a massive double standard here: denying equality of opportunity to women is sexist. Denying equality of opportunity to men is empowering. It would be shut down by the University, not to mention they would never give it any funding as they have done with this workshop.

[–]Mildly_Sociopathic 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]thegrimraeper 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]kc3w 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]TurbulentThinking2 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]spankaway -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (41 children) | Copy Link

[–]SporkTornado 13 points14 points15 points 10 years ago (28 children) | Copy Link

[–]SuperDanceParty 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]spankaway -12 points-11 points-10 points 10 years ago* (26 children) | Copy Link

I agree with you in some theoretical sense, but as someone who actually went trough the CS program... you're just barking up the wrong tree. Those clubs and workshops are already men only, defacto, aside from the occasional token girl. You don't need separate mens' only CS stuff, but having a more welcoming environment for girls is actually useful at this point. I wish it wasn't the case, but damn. /r/neckbeardthings is on point sometimes.

If anyone did actually try to setup an equivalent group for men. to help men get into fields that they are a minority in, such as education. They would be sued for sexism.

That's exactly what people should do. And then fight those charges. That is actual activism. And those things are actually needed and helpful - just as women-only coding workshops are right now.

[–]caladuz 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

[–]spankaway -3 points-2 points-1 points 10 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

[–]jimmywiddle 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

[–]spankaway -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

You are not the only one to have done CS, and the only way you can really ever justify the double standard of thinking women only anything is ok, is if you think of women as less than men, or as perpetual children.

This is odd, because I literally said that men could use some help in fields where they are extreme minorities. I don't think men are perpetual children either. I do think that when proportions get very lopsided, people might need a bit of extra help getting started, staying engaged, and building support networks.

Sure coding is hard compared to other topics that women are likely to take up. However being hard should not be enough to put someone off. Look at all the men taking the course, they are not shying away from it. They know that at the end of it they will be on reasonably high salaries and that it will be worth it.

Bro, coding isn't even particularly hard. It's not the difficulty of any of this stuff that's putting anyone off.

[–]ioudas210 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[–]spankaway -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]ioudas210 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]spankaway1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]ioudas2102 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]spankaway1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]ioudas2101 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]spankaway1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]ioudas2101 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]spankaway1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]ioudas2102 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]spankaway1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]ioudas2101 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]spankaway1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]ioudas2101 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]spankaway1 point 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]TheDongerNeedsFood 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]spankaway -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]RubixCubeDonut 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]spankaway -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]RubixCubeDonut -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]spankaway -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You didn't say it generates an uncomfortable atmosphere, you blatantly said that it's men scaring women off.

I'm not really sure where he communication gap is. In my program the uncomfortable atmosphere was created by too many maladjusted men and not enough women. It did scare people off. The campus is a big place, but not that big. There was enough opportunity to run into people and ask why they switched. And you could literally see it in classes.

You are actively denying the very real possibility that this isn't a lack-of-opportunity problem

Not really what I am saying. The situation is fairly unbalanced, for whatever reason. You can argue about equality of opportunity, or other causes of this, but the situation is manifest. The university is trying to attract more women to their program from within the university. I think it's a good idea. If a non-credit interdisciplinary class helps get more women in, that's great. I don't see a huge injustice, I see a corrective effort.

[–]garglemesh42 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]spankaway 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]mikesteane 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]spankaway -5 points-4 points-3 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]jimmywiddle 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]spankaway -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

The people that are successful in the field of CS may not be perfect specimens of human form (as I am sure you are) but they have an intellect that far exceeds the normal joe. Thats why they are there, thats why they are doing what they are doing. Thats why they will be on huge salaries comparatively to other professions later on in life.

I've been doing the job for ten years now. You've got some illusions about the gig. For one, it's a lot more social than you'd expect, because people work in teams of diverse individuals. People who can't communicate or make others uncomfortable rarely do well. Most of the basement types seem to have stayed there.

Salaries aren't bad, but my lawyer, doctor, and finance friends make more. I make a good living, but the "huge" salaries are pretty rare in the biz. The money felt huge when I was in my twenties, but now that I'm in my thirties and heading toward the max earning potential, it's not looking so amazing. I try to be involved in startups from time to time - it's something of a lottery but one of these days something will pay off.

If you are trying say that women are not picking CS courses because of the "quasi-autistic weirdos" on the course you again are not really giving women any credit. I doubt the people on the course has any baring on what career they are about to take up.

People in the course do actually influence whether you stick with it and how well you do. Your classmates, just like your workmates, help define your environment and make a big difference in whether it is healthy or not. Of course it's possible to succeed regardless - just harder. Initiatives like that women's coding workshops are aimed at trying to give women a bit of that support network that they have a hard time getting from their peers.

[–]jimmywiddle 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"I've been doing the job for ten years now."

Then I have been doing it for a lot longer than you have.

"People who can't communicate or make others uncomfortable rarely do well. Most of the basement types seem to have stayed there"

Again you are way off the mark. The most common type of personality type in software engineering roles is introvert. That means they are not going to be communicating a lot and won't have to either in their role as a software engineer. Companies understand and almost expect that type of behaviour.

"People in the course do actually influence whether you stick with it and how well you do."

Not if you have a brain of your own and a backbone. Sure if you are a weak minded individual who only cares what others think of you then you are going to be swayed by virtually any opinion then you are not really fit to be at university in the first place let alone on a challenging programme like software engineering.

We shouldn't be coddling women, we should be educating everyone on the pay you can get if you put the work in on software engineering careers. If women still don't think its worth it, its up to them. Special treatment will only divide and breed resentment.

[–]garglemesh42 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]spankaway 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheDongerNeedsFood 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]spankaway 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Shironekosama404 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Claude_Reborn -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[+]avericks -10 points-9 points-8 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]Imnotmrabut 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Yes anyone can start a Change.org pettion, just as anyone can come to Reddit and be dismissive and unhelpful ... Just Like You!

Hoewever, you fail to mention that a plaintiff can Sue under the Equality Act. Birkbeck University is a Public Authority under the Equality Act and they acknowledge this by publishing their "Equality Strategy 2012-2016", which is a statutory requirement... which they also acknowledge: Section 4, page 6. They are therefore obliged to comply fully with the law and no excuses. Failure to comply leaves those parties involved open to being made personally liable for losses and costs incurred by the University.

Any student denied access to the class/training opportunity/repeated event may raise legal action under The Equality Act 2010:

13 Direct discrimination

(1)A person (A) discriminates against another (B) if, because of a protected characteristic, A treats B less favourably than A treats or would treat others.

19 Indirect discrimination

(1)A person (A) discriminates against another (B) if A applies to B a provision, criterion or practice which is discriminatory in relation to a relevant protected characteristic of B's.

When Sexism of this kind is being thrown about, uou often find that there is a sexist claiming protection as the instigator. As such section 24 of the act is HIGHLY RELEVANT.

24 Irrelevance of alleged discriminator's characteristics

(1)For the purpose of establishing a contravention of this Act by virtue of section 13(1), it does not matter whether A has the protected characteristic.

(2)For the purpose of establishing a contravention of this Act by virtue of section 14(1), it does not matter—

...(a)whether A has one of the protected characteristics ...in the combination; ...(b)whether A has both.

The event is described as follows:

"Event description Birkbeck is partnering with the amazing ladies at Code First: Girls to offer female students and staff from all disciplines the opportunity to complete a free six-week beginners coding course." http://www.webcitation.org/6fvaWxKWi

I see that Birkbeck may be trying to hide behind using an external agent, claiming that Code First: Girls approched Birkbeck and sought an opportunity to do Charitable Works. (They may state they are a social enterprise, but that's just a charity by another name). I see that Code First: Girls make many claims whcih are now common social meme's, and yet they provide ZERO evidence in support of their claims that Women are disadvantaged.

Birkbeck are OBLIGED to follow evidence, and not sentimentalised sexism, cultural memes or stamping feet from those who demand victimhood.

Birkbeck are obliged to also ensure that all those with protected characteristics are offered equality of opportunity.

So where are the course and sets of workshops aimed at

1) Addressing the deficits in Disabled People having access to education, training and employment? Birkbeck may wish to claim they have diversity staff to address this, but those diversity staff should also be addressing any concern about women in tech .... so they can't treat one group better and claim it's equality for another group.

2) Addressing barriers to employment for men with disabilities. A number of disabilities are sex linked and occur predominantly in males. Where are the Workshops and courses fr4m Birkbeck addressing such issues as Colour Blindness and blocked access to education, training and employment?

They throw lots of documents about on their website .... but the words aint met with equality of action and events.

Of great amusement is Birkbeck's inability to understand basic language around Disability. In their "Disability Statement" (Author:John Muya, Creation Date:24/09/2014) they use the phrase:

"If you have a disability or dyslexia,..".

It seems that the Birkbeck Disability office are so stupid the fail to grasp that Dyslexia is a Disability and should not be separated, unless they mention ALL disabilities.

The language used by Birkbeck is the equivalent of providing service to "Women and Vagina Owners". If they said that, there would be outrage, just as there would be if the said "Racial Minorities and Folks with skin that is not caucasian";.

It should also be noted that the language used by Birkbeck around disability imply that Able Bodied people are not welcome to use services to find out more about disability and how they can not inadvertently discriminate.

The Library Services are a Case in Point.

">Disability Support in the Library and IT Services

Birkbeck (Bloomsbury) offers a wide range of assistive technology and Library support services for students with disabilities and dyslexia.

We are here to support your learning and help you make the best use of our resources. Please get in touch if you would like to:

attend one of our workshops

have an individual induction and tour of the Library

get help learning how to use assistive technology

or if you need further advice. If you would like to check whether you might have dyslexia you can take the LADS dyslexia screening test.

They really are fixated on the idea that Dyslexia and Disability are two separate things and it's institution wide showing Institutionalized Ableism as well as Institutionalised Sexism and Institutionalised Ignorance.

... and I'm just giving their public face a cursory glance and finding actionable issues abound. Who ever is in charge of Equality And Diversity either needs some basic training or the sack.

Amusingly, Birckbeck have a separate web portal addressing Equality and Diversity which you are directed to when seeking information on the University's compliance with their legal obligations. It has the following Content:

All news items Title - Birkbeck's Equality Objectives Date last modified - 06 June 2012 14:56 http://www.webcitation.org/6fvco1ukm

So at time of writing, that is 1374 days of inattention and self-satisfied smugness around equality and legal obligation. They are so smug they don't even bother to signal compliance with Legal Obligations.

All I see is a damning indictment of a University that has no culture of equality or diversity, just a veneer (if that) of legal compliance that is not even skin deep. It's just a covering of DUST. It seems that The Universities HR Manager has not been up to the Job for some considerable time .... and is also biased in that they see their roll as promoting equality for employees but neglecting students who are also owed a legal duty in equality with staff.

But then again Birkbeck has a track record of sexism and failure to comply with their Equality Duties.

Don't forget that Birkbeck is the Univeristy that illegally facilitated the use of their buildings by "The Radfem 2012 conference" which was kicked out of Conway Hall. Some claim that Birkbeck would never do such a thing - so here is the evidence: Video Of Prof Gayle Dines delivering her lecture "From the Personal Is Political to the Personal is Personal: Neo-Liberalism and the Defanging of Feminism." at the hidden conference - The Venue, MAL 421 Lecture Hall, Birkbeck University of London, Malet Street, London, WC1E 7HX.

I agree that anyone can throw up a petition, but due to corporate negligence at Birkbeck they believe they can get away with Gross Discrimination and not be held to account. So dear avericks, I wonder which one is to you more significant, and worthy of comment and which is more identifying of "..weird aggresive fucks.."(sic) ? P¬))

[–]avericks -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Imnotmrabut 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]avericks -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Imnotmrabut 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link