Thoughts on pregnancy!

duhhhh · 2021-03-30T23:47:47+00:00

I think women should get a choice over her body (abortion and/or financial abortion).

I think men should get a choice over his body (financial abortion).

Financial abortion is about bodily autonomy. No out for child support forces a man to spend years of his life working to pay for a child he does not want. If he loses his job and is unable to pay, he will be locked in a cage.

1 in 8 men in South Carolina jails are there for failure to pay child support. They are not given court appointed lawyers until they are $10k behind and most are arrested and lose their job way before that limit making it extremely difficult to pay.

Src: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/20/us/skip-child-support-go-to-jail-lose-job-repeat.html

In the US,

66 percent of all child support not paid by fathers is due to an inability to come up with the money

Src: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-myth-of-the-deadbeat-_b_4745118

After Hermesmann v Seyer set the precedent, courts around the country have decided that male victims of women owe the perpetrators child support for decades, while other precedents (Roe v Wade) and laws (safe haven laws) generally allow female victims many options to get rid of the product of their rapes.

Hermesmann successfully argued that a woman is entitled to sue the father of her child for child support even if conception occurred as a result of a criminal act committed by the woman.

E.g.

Alabama man - https://law.justia.com/cases/alabama/court-of-appeals-civil/1996/2950025-0.html

Arizona boy - https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/09/02/statutory-rape-victim-child-support/14953965/

California boy - https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1996-12-22-9612220045-story.html

Others in this paper "Victims with responsibilities" -https://lawpublications.barry.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1017&context=cflj

There are many others out there. I do not believe there has yet been a single case where a boy or man has gotten out of paying child support to an adult woman that statutory raped, raped, sperm jacked, etc.

The good news is that in recent years feminist lobbiests have pushed for laws to prevent rapists from getting child custody. Without custody the child wouldn't be raised by a rapist and the victim wouldn't owe child support. So the day that a male doesn't owe his perpetrator may be coming soon. The less good news is that just over half the states that passed these laws passed them as the feminist lobbiests proposed them - only preventing rapist fathers from getting custody. (https://www.ncsl.org/research/human-services/parental-rights-and-sexual-assault.aspx)

Terrell v Torres recently set a precedent and invalidated a signed contract to let a woman use embryos created with her ex and have him owe child support. https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2019/03/18/arizona-court-ruling-use-preserved-embryos-without-ex-husbands-consent-ruby-torres/3205867002/

Courts have ruled the same way in a very similar situation in Italy.

https://www.ansa.it/canale_saluteebenessere/notizie/lei_lui/vita_di_coppia/2021/02/25/si-allimpianto-dellembrione-dellex-marito-anche-se-lui-dice-no_05230156-95ea-406a-aa7e-4e90cf2d7c93.html

Courts ruled the same way in yet another similar case in Israel.

https://he.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%A9%D7%AA_%D7%A0%D7%97%D7%9E%D7%A0%D7%99

In several other cases women who forged her ex's signature to implant have been awarded child support from the unwilling father. E.G. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5687477/Ex-husband-ordered-pay-child-support-former-wife-forged-signature-undergo-IVF.html

Reproductive coersion of men is also an issue that would be drastically reduced with financial abortion.

approximately 10.4% (or an estimated 11.7 million) of men in the United States reported ever having an intimate partner who tried to get pregnant when they did not want to or tried to stop them from using birth control

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproductive_coercion

American talk shows for women encourage women to stop birth control without telling their partner with the applause of their audiences.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=5CNHwhHWPoQ

What about IVF with sperm taken from a condom without the man's consent?

https://www.mommyish.com/woman-steals-ex-boyfriends-sperm-has-twins-sues-for-child-support-836/

How about when they only engage in oral sex which should have no pregnancy risk?

https://rollingout.com/2014/02/04/woman-uses-sperm-oral-sex-get-pregnant-force-man-pay-child-support/

How about court orders mandating men give their wife sperm so they can impregnate themselves during divorce proceedings?

https://theprint.in/judiciary/court-orders-man-to-donate-sperm-to-estranged-wife-who-says-no-time-for-2nd-marriage/255215/

Financial abortion would solve all the financial issues for victimized males and remove financial incentives for women to do these things, but many pro-choice folks immediately start making pro-life talking points that if he didn't want a kid he should have used a condom or kept it in his pants.

maxlvb · 2021-03-30T23:07:12+00:00

Physically and emotionally. And there is no equivalent for a man.

????

Don't you believe men have physical and emotional reactions when their partner/woman they had sex with is pregnant. That the knowledge they're going to become a father doesn't have an equivalent physical and/or emotional effect on them?

To get back to your main question/point I refer you to...

“Justice therefore dictates that if a woman makes a unilateral decision to bring pregnancy to term, and the biological father does not, and cannot share in this decision, he should not be liable for 21 years of support. Or, put another way, autonomous women making independent decisions about their lives should not expect men to finance their choices.”

Karen DeCrow feminist lawyer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_DeCrow

If women’s partial responsibility for pregnancy does not obligate them to support a fetus, then men’s partial responsibility for pregnancy does not obligate them to support a resulting child.

Elizabeth Brake, political philosopher

https://elizabethbrake.com/

And...

A man's right to choose

Is it fair that women have reproductive rights while men have reproductive responsibilities?

https://www.salon.com/2000/10/19/mens_choice/

Is Forced Fatherhood Fair?

https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/06/12/is-forced-fatherhood-fair/

Should Men Have the Right to ‘Financial Abortions’?

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/fathers-financial-abortion_b_1015286

“One of the reasons for the failure of feminism to dislodge deeply held perceptions of male and female behaviour was its insistence that women were victims, and men powerful patriarchs, which made a travesty of ordinary people's experience of the mutual interdependence of men and women.”

Rosalind Coward

Reddit1984Censorship · 2021-03-30T23:25:49+00:00

Men should absolutly have the option to walk away, i think its called ''paper abortion'', men should be able to resign form all legal rights to the child wich includes child support. My money, my choice. Until that happens ill be against abortion, equal treatment or you get nothing.

cabsmom2020 · 2021-03-30T22:44:28+00:00

I am not in favor of abortion (I'm a woman). I sympathize with women and some reasons why they have abortions.

However, if they can choose not to be a parent, a man should have the same right.

However, I think if the man is the biological parent and he chooses to be the parent at birth, I don't think he should be able to change his mind months or years down the road. I think his choice to not parent should be before the birth.

UnconventionalXY · 2021-03-31T01:36:41+00:00

I believe this issue can be fairly solved by giving everyone bodily sovereignty rights including the use of any bodily tissues. Consequently, sperm is a man's property, regardless of whether it is inside or outside his body, and it's use for any purpose requires his consent. Failure to obtain consent before use comes with penalty, such as waiver of requirement to support any offspring. Making consent a default No unless deliberately agreed in a witnessed statement without duress.

Women basically have this right already, but men don't, so it's only rectifying the lack of equality.

If a man's sperm is his own property requiring consent for use, then it also raises the possibility of a say in its use including fee for use. Whilst a woman has bodily sovereignty over her tissues, a fetus is not only her tissue. This is a complex matter that will require careful deliberation, especially over shared tissue, however the fundamental principle of equality in bodily sovereignty should apply.

It also raises an interesting point about how to treat sperm in sperm banks, where men were poorly compensated for something that has great value when used to force support of a child and may have been under duress to sign away consent in its use.

Appletree911 · 2021-03-31T01:06:01+00:00

1.Do you believe that it is appropriate to explore the feasibility of granting fathers some legal say to contest abortion in certain circumstances?

Personally, I believe that this question is worth pondering for certain circumstances. For example,

-the pregnancy is an informed and mutually inclusive decision of a married couple and;

-there are no reasonable grounds to believe that there is significant risk of health implications for the mother and child should the pregnancy be carried to its full-term and;

-the reason/intention for abortion is seemingly unreasonable (e. g. sudden change of heart without change in circumstances, a way to spite or take vengeance upon the counterpart etc) and;

-the father has adequately demonstrated willingness and means to take care of the child, even if it is by himself and;

-the father is willing to assume sole accountability of his child and is not against the mother's parental liabilities to be absolved.

2.Do you believe that it is appropriate for a father's parental liability to be absolved in certain circumstances?

Personally, I believe that it is reasonable to consider absolving a father of his legal parental liability if

-his child is a product of rape/sexual assault/sexual coercion perpetrated by the mother.

-his child is a product of other criminal means perpetrated by the mother. For example, the child was conceived as the mother has intentionally compromised contraception (e. g. tampered with her partner's condom without the partner's consent or knowledge) or that the child was conceived via self-insemination and the mother has obtained the semen of the father through misconception or coercion.

3.Do you believe that it is appropriate for mothers of unintended pregnancy to not only receive child support but other forms of compensation in certain circumstances?

Personally, I believe that it is reasonable to consider mandatory compensation for mothers beyond current standards (aside from child support) in certain circumstances. For example,

-a mother was rendered pregnant and birthed her child and that said child is a product of rape/sexual assault/sexual coercion/misconception perpetrated by the father.

4.Do you believe that it is appropriate to consider financial/paper abortion rights for fathers in certain circumstances?

While I am in favour of this in certain circumstances such as the ones in point 2, I am vehemently against it being a sweeping right for fathers (and mothers) in any and every situation. In family law, the principle is such that the welfare of the child is of paramount consideration, and I believe that a sweeping implementation of such policy is highly detrimental to said principle.

5.Do you believe that it is appropriate to consider full-term or even post-partum (post delivery) abortion rights for mothers in certain circumstances?

Personally, I find it utterly reprehensible. However, for exceptional cases, some may argue that it is seemingly in the best interests of the child. For example,

-The child has a severe development disorder that is priorly undetected and the disorder is very likely to pose certain implications for the child, if not already so.

However, such decisions should be bilateral and made mutually by both parents. The mother should not have overriding priority over the father.

6.Do you believe that it is appropriate to consider fathers' right to coerce or impose abortion in certain circumstances?

Personally, I do not believe that there exist any scenario that renders such consideration reasonable. Some may argue that situations in point 2 are appropriate justifications.

2021-03-31T03:29:42+00:00

I think legally stopping abortion is impossible, much like sex work (including porn). Even if there is such a law, people will seek abortion from the fringes of society. Not good.

I think male contraception needs to be ramped up. So that men have the ability to pre-emptively prevent a pregnancy. This will also equalise contraceptive responsibility.

Paternity fraud is a serious problem now and must be stopped. I include lying about being on some contraception as paternity fraud. The laws in the US and Canada fail to protect men. We've seen men ordered to pay child support for children who are not theirs (after DNA tests), or children gotten from sperm donation, or even from frozen sperm stolen by their now ex girlfriends. These flagrant rights violations seem to be ignored because the only victims are men.

makosh22 · 2021-03-31T07:33:48+00:00

I am woman too.

I was raised with idea that I AM in charge of MY body and whatever happens with me - it's my responsibility.

It takes two to have a baby, sure, but it doesn't mean that you two will always be together so i must consider how do i manage it alone. Man may decide to leave or i can do the same. So - do i want to take all this responsibility for myself if man wants to leave bc till the legal age of my kids i have to carry this weight?

And i agree that if woman has right to terminate pregnancy so men should have the same right too. They can't make woman to have an abortion, it's her body, but they can to avoid participating in bringing up a baby they didn't want.

In case of mutual agreement to have a baby - yes, man and woman BOTH carry the financial burden for the child.

Mr_fong_did-it · 2021-03-31T02:54:38+00:00

My views are on par with Dave Chappell’s

suzuki1369 · 2021-03-30T22:59:15+00:00

I think women should have full autonomy over their body. I also think that men should have full autonomy over their bodies, and more importantly, their wallets. In general, I am against abortion except in the usual cases(rape, mother will die, young, etc.) or before the end of the first trimester. I feel like before the first trimester ends, the baby is not developed enough to be considered a human, but after I think it is. I absolutely am against abortions very late without medical reason (like 8 months). I think that before the second trimester, women and men should have the option to opt out. The woman could get an abortion, and the man can get rid of all responsibilities, including financial. If you opt out as a man before then, there is no child support and no visitation either unless the mother wants it, or you pay child support. Now, onto if men get a say in abortions.

You should always talk to your partner. As a man, you need to make it clear if you do not or do want the kid, and same for the woman. You can debate and try to convince each other and you should always try to compromise, but in the end if you disagree you have to accept that. However, women should in no circumstances get a consensual baby aborted without their partners' knowledge. It is a terrible thing to do, and one of the only time you see men lose their shit is when that happens and they are screaming to not let it happen at the clinic. If it was rape, do it, but if not, at least inform them and try to talk it out. Same goes for men.

Basically, communication is key and if you can't communicate with your partner, you shouldn't have slept with them anyways.

bareballin · 2021-03-31T03:18:56+00:00

I 100% support this! If it's their body and their right, then it should be their problem of a man chooses not to be involved!

sh0rtcake · 2021-03-31T02:47:58+00:00

Lady here, and I agree with you. It should all be legal. Just like drugs and sex. If proper resources and education can be given to people through social programs, the instances of these would be less overall. Needle exchanges have already proven to help. Methadone clinics help. More/better education about sex would mean less abortions. Better resources and financial aid to new parents (whether as a couple or single parent) could allow more people to actually be parents. Of course there will still be some people who don't want to be parents/can't be parents, and instead of demonizing them, perhaps offer them resources as well, like safe clinics, medical after-care and counseling.

Frosty-Gate-8094 · 2021-03-31T11:15:56+00:00

Personally I am in favor of financial abortion.

If I have to draft the law I ll draft it in the following way---

--A man gets 2 weeks from the time he comes to know about the pregnancy to a maximum gestational period of 16 weeks. (I am assuming 24 weeks cuto off for legal abortion, that period can be modified according to the prevailing age of abortion in the area).

-- he has to legally sign and notify the decision. Once done its irreversible. He cannot resume parental rights if he decides to change his mind.

-- The woman then has 8 weeks to decide and plan an abortion. If she doesn't, the child is treated as 'absent father'. No claim of CS or property rights will be entertained.

-- If she gets abortion, the man will have to fully sponsor the procedure including any complications ensued.

-- If he doesn't sign away financial abortion by 16 weeks of gestation or 2 weeks within the news of pregnancy...he will be hooked up for child support. ( Provided DNA tests proves paternity).
Paternity test May not be needed for signing away financial abortion. (It would not matter anyways).

This leaves a small loophole that the woman deliberately delay informing the father. (Till legal period is over)... But I ll let it be. Most women will not do it. So I would leave that loophole be.

RandyRenegade · 2021-03-31T06:43:58+00:00

This has been a difficult conclusion, since I care about men's issues, and the absolute lack of control a man has in terms of having children is a huge one. However, if I'm being honest, my true feelings are that while you should take personal responsibility for conceiving a child, that responsibility should end at sacrificing your bodily autonomy, it shouldn't end at sacrificing your financial responsibility. Especially since I don't consider a fetus to be a living being, so your responsibilities to that versus a living child are different things. Obviously, that doesn't mean making men actually raise the child, but having him support the child to an extent is fair. It's unfortunate, but the different physical roles that men and women have in child birth mean they just can't have true equality in this case.

Title	Thoughts on pregnancy!
Author	screaming-turtles
Upvotes	56
Comments	61
Date	March 30, 2021 9:59 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/mgr3xu/thoughts_on_pregnancy/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/thoughts-on-pregnancy.831725 https://theredarchive.com/post/831725

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