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Translation, part I (DT traits)

February 4, 2023
3 upvotes

It is a translation of the first part of the Russian article. I'm not the author and I've translated with the permission of the author. All credit is to the author and people working on the article.

This project was supposed to be an article about the Incels Wiki project, but in the course of work it turned into something more - this material covers in-depth the methodological critiques of many modern ways of studying the gender differences between men and women. I hope readers will find this project interesting.

Here is an article from the "Wikipedia" of the incels, which was the initial reason for this project. [The links is redacted out, as I think Reddit bans my post due to it]

The main author of the article is Alexey Stukalsky. Psychologists, translators, mathematicians and some other specialists helping, checking and proofreading this work: Vladimir Volokhonsky, Anton Lebed, Natalia Butkova, Danila Zakharov, Alexander Doe, Nadezhda Belyaeva and Elizaveta Romanova.

Dark triad

Incels claim that women like men with high scores in Dark Triad traits. This is one of many talking points where incels demonstrate their bias and stubbornly ignore the methodological problems of studies they’re using.

The first methodological issue: The link between attractive facial features and DT traits is weak and partial, there is only limited confirmation for the link with narcissism, but not for Machiavellianism or psychopathy.

Shiramizu V. K. M. et al. 2019

The second methodological issue: Most studies use self-reports to form pools of individuals with DT traits, i.e. in the testing set they include photos of the people identified as carriers of the DT traits according to their results to questionnaire. This approach looks dubious. It is recommended to include assessments of others (relatives, close friends) to accurately determine the presence of the DT.

Muris et. al. 2017

The third methodological issue: most studies view narcissism, psychopathy, and Machiavellianism as unidimensional constructs, although there is evidence that they are multidimensional.

Miller et. al. 2019

Broken down into components, some traits have correlation with attractiveness, while others have no correlation or inverse correlation. For example, agentic narcissism is correlated with attractiveness, but antagonistic narcissism is not.

The fourth methodological problem: we can put forward hypotheses about the biological origin of the alleged attraction to the DT only when this attraction is manifested in a universal way for all human cultures and societies. And since such studies have simply not been conducted in non-Westernized societies, we cannot argue about the influence of biology and not culture. I have repeatedly emphasized the importance of these studies [“Problems of evolutionary psychology”, “On the gender difference in risk taking”, “On the gender difference in competitiveness”]. Without them, all evolutionary hypotheses cited by incels are nothing more than speculation. For example, the hunter-gatherer hypothesis: They argue that females choose “dominant males” “to gain access to high quality food and resources (Geary 2004)”. But among hunter-gatherers, everyone gets food equally, there is no special nutritional benefit for the best hunter’s woman, unless the hunters themselves eat slightly better than women (Stibbard-Hawkes et. al. 2020).

Such speculations constitute the majority of evolutionary psychological hypotheses that are not based on empirical data from non-Westernized communities.

These are not all methodological problems - some will be revealed when we talk about the attractiveness or unattractiveness of masculinized faces

.Cherry-picking

Incels also ignore the fact that DT attractiveness studies have highly controversial results. They do not cite studies that didn’t find the link between DT facial features and attractiveness. Moreover, there are evidences that these traits cause disgust.

One: Brewer, Gayle, et al. (2018)

Two: Lyons, Minna, and Louise Simeonov 2016

Three: Solomon, E., & Lyons, M. (2020)

That’s an example of banal cherry-picking.

Considering studies using vignettes (textual descriptions of people with high and low DR traits) they cite the study (Carter, G. L et al. 2014), where the researches found the link between attractiveness and high scores for DT traits, but they ignore another study Qureshi et al. (2016), which has a bigger sample and shows that people with high DT traits scores aren’t more attractive than people with lower DT traits scores. There’s also another ignored work Salvino, M. A. (2018), which found out that narcissism is attractive both for men and women in contrast to psychopathy or Machiavellianism.

They also cite (Brazil, K. J., & Forth, A. E. (2020), but forget about Jauk et al. 2016 where only narcissism remains a significant predictor of mate choice, while psychopathy after controlling for physical attractiveness is not one and Machiavellianism has inverse correlation. As I noted earlier both studies suffer from a serious methodological flaw – low statistical power. How to correctly (and not selectively) quote, you can see in my other article.

Conclusion

From all cited studies and criticism of methodology, we can conclude that there is no strong evidence for the greater attractiveness of people with high DT scores. Narcissism might slightly correlate with attractiveness, but not to the point of monstrous d=0.94 given by incels.

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Post Information
Title Translation, part I (DT traits)
Author EulenWatcher
Upvotes 3
Comments 32
Date February 4, 2023 11:40 PM UTC (1 month ago)
Subreddit /r/PurplePillDebate
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/translation-part-i-dt-traits.1150856
https://theredarchive.com/post/1150856
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/10tuxyv/translation_part_i_dt_traits/
Red Pill terms in post
Comments

[–]OriginalThought171GrillPill 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Very interesting. But i think the fixation on DT traits is misattributed to incels when it is a decidedly redpill concept. If i'm not mistaken Blackpillers have a way bigger focus on looks and lookism and disregard behaviour in many cases.

From what i've seen the correlation between narcicissm and attractiveness only in so far correlates because being attractive and getting alot of validation is more conducive for narcicisstic tendencies.

[–]EulenWatcher[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This isn’t a whole article, I’m gonna post the rest of it eventually.

[–]Fearless_Method_1682LVM solidarity squad 1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I've never seen anyone claim DT men are more facially attractive, I've seen them claim DT men have more sexual success. I thought it was uncontroversial fact that narcissists are usually sexually successful.

[–]MediumBaseball5339 3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

The issue is, even if the dark arts yield results, no one here truly understands or knows how to use any of the traits like narcissism, Machiavellianism or psychopathy. All these guys do is to talk about women as if they are scholars in female psychology from behind their screens.

And should anyone truly delve into the dark arts, they'll lose themselves to the dark triad since it's not sustainable for a human being to have control of the Triad. It's a lose lose situation.

[–]BrummieAMN19Pick up artist- Diagnosed NPD-Black British 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Ding ding ding, this is the same sub that thinks social skills don't matter with women lmao yet praise us for being successful when that's the main catalyst to why we do so well. They also forget women do well in dating who have any cluster B personality disorder/dark triad and PPD men would be a target for such women cause they're so socially retarded.

And why anyone would want to have NPD or ASPD is beyond me like these losers like come on its a personality disorder lmao

[–]justforlulz12345Jester Pill 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

My first gf was a bpd woman who traumatized me at a young age and made me paranoid of all women

[–]BrummieAMN19Pick up artist- Diagnosed NPD-Black British -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Actually diagnosed? If so yeah I highly advise any neurotypical man not to date one as they're low functioning most of the time, they get completely destroyed by these women. Combine that with NPD, bipolar or even ASPD? God bless you.

[–]justforlulz12345Jester Pill 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Not diagnosed but she used a lot of manipulation on me and blamed me for intense emotional outbursts, would purposely flirt with other men to get back at me then suddenly get crazy attracted to me again. Every time I contemplated leaving she kept acting extra seductive to get me to stay. It was finally me discovering she was a racist pos (I’m Indian) to leave her

[–]Ordinary_Tax9322Don't assume i don't hate Men either 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Women are attracted to confidence, and high level of narcissism tend to correlate with confidence.

[–]EulenWatcher[S] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Not only women.

[–]Ordinary_Tax9322Don't assume i don't hate Men either -2 points-1 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

nah, there are many attributes we care much more about. Confidence tend to be very high or the most important thing for what women look for in a man.

Men are not attracted to a women confidence like they are to a men.

[–]EulenWatcher[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I mean studies that found the link between narcissism and attractiveness, found it for both men and women.

[–]andrejusilva123 -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yes, men will fuck anything attractive and they aren't the ones talking about personality most of the time.

[–]EulenWatcher[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

There might be some correlation, but it isn't a very strong one.

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[–]DumpApe13522M 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

I would say if I was to formulate a black-pilled/incel take, it would be that looks are the most important factor in dating and many times this is determined by your genetics(height, face, hair, etc.) The biggest difference I have with most black pilled guys is I also think personality is important but in regards to men being neurodivergent, if a guy has autism he is more likely than a guy without autism to struggle with dating and if a guy has poor genetics and autism he is going to have a really rough time. I don't think it's to be honest about these things either if a woman says she doesn't want to date someone since he is autistic or awkward that is fine/the same goes for if he is unattractive I think women should just be more honest about it.

[–]EulenWatcher[S] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

You didn’t read the post, did you?

[–]DumpApe13522M 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

I did I'm not arguing what's in the post but just adding my thought since this is a discussion is it not?

[–]EulenWatcher[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Sure, but it’s not exactly the topic of the post.

[–]DumpApe13522M 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Your post is mostly issues with the methodology which are fair, over half of the psychology either can't be replicated or has used bad methods or only applies to college students quickly taking a test for credit. It sucks but honestly, most research that either party produces whether they are blue, black or red pill can be dismissed and if you are in the redpill/blackpill camp you can even go as far to say that research showing negative results over blackpill issues won't get funding as a result of left-bias in universities something that happens even at my college. If you want to know my point in regards to this in my personal life at least amongst young women 18-24ish range I have seen the guys who succeed when it comes to being with multiple women sexually being typically narcissistic(many either have great natural looks or workout), however when it comes to guys who seem to be in long term healthy relationships I don't the DT traits are represented at a higher level I might even say they are underrepresented with I think of my married/engaged friends.

[–]EulenWatcher[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I think providing studies found different results helps to from a more detailed and realistic perspective.

[–]DumpApe13522M 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah I agree

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Idk man, I just see girls asking me if i'm gonna rap them or tell me I am so big that I can do anything to them and they couldn't say no - as a huge mental turn on for themselves.

If I get angry, suddenly women -adult women - with husbands and kids gravitate and want some time alone. If I crush a fool's reputation in public because of some petty upset, you can see them visibly turned on and turn to pussycats.

When I brag even as a joke - suddenly I am the most interesting man in the room. Just saying I work in Dubai, had Chrismas in Paris and drive a Mercedes - makes women's eyes light up.

There's definetly something fucked up about being a threat and female receptiveness.

[–]EulenWatcher[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Subjective experience is less reliable than statistical data. Also being angry or bragging about something doesn't necessarily mean you have and DT traits.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

That's why I said i don't know. But from a personal view point - agression do seems to be more exciting than talking about photography or music.

[–]EulenWatcher[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Well, that’s a different topic, not exactly DT.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think you are idealizing DT people. We're talking about traits and how people react to traits. A woman can't see you are true-dark or a poser

[–]EulenWatcher[S] -1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

u/HazyMemory7 , could you approve it?

[–]HazyMemory7They hated me because I spoke the truth[M] -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

approved

[–]EulenWatcher[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks, it took two days to figure out what was wrong!

[–]Specialist-Action-33Revenge Fantasy Creator & PPD Jail Bait - 3 time felon -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Second time I heard of DT here on PPD, so I am really trying to understand its whole concept. Women dislake a man who plays it safe and always do the right thing, comared to men with DT traits. Its usually when they get older and grow out of that phase do they want men who are nice (not nice guys™️). This is one of the many reasons why young men who were good boys try to fake themselves to develop DT traits to impress women.

Single moms under 25 are usually pregnant by men with DT traits. But thats a whole diffent story there.

[–]EulenWatcher[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Clearly they should have looked for more data on the topic.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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