What is an "alpha"?

angatar_ · 2013-11-24T19:24:43+00:00

Reposted comment from another thread: Original comment, immediate comment.

"Every girl..." is not probabilistic. Agree or disagree?

Since the red pill is quite consistent in it's usage of generalizations and using the word "women" to denote the generalization implied therein, it's safe to assume that, in fact, this is what I was talking about.

But, to clear up the confusion, I explain that I'm talking about trends... to which your response?

"And you never even mentioned trends in your original comment."

I didn't respond to your comment; you responded to mine. My comment was on the title of the thread, which does imply probability in any way. You responded to an argument against an "all" argument with stating that there can be exceptions, "thus creating a completely off topic debate".

a very simple idea that let's be honest here, you didn't really really need clarification on, you just find it advantageous to be overly pedantic to wear down your sparring partners.

Nope. I'm still none the wiser what "alpha" means in a Red Pill context. Taking a recent post on The Red Pill:

I was concerned with being what's attractive to women to my son.

That doesn't make sense. "Alpha" isn't used consistently. It's consistently idealized but it isn't consistently defined. This thread gives the same definition as you "what women find attractive", but as I've already said defining what women find attractive as what they find attractive is utterly useless. It doesn't convey any information.

In the same thread, there's this post by /u/redpillschool that says that alpha traits aren't the same in all situations. If alpha traits are what's attractive to women in general, and alpha traits aren't universal, then anything can be alpha if given the right group of women. It does nothing to convey information; it does nothing to clarify what is or is not alpha.

This post from the same thread says that not only are alpha/beta dichotomies dumb, but man/bitch is more accurate. This is even more meaningless, because the men of The Red Pill wouldn't be having their relationship troubles if all men were found attractive.

This thread contends that alphas would lie, cheat, and use violence. How many women find liars, cheaters, and abusers attractive compared to non-liars, non-cheaters, and non-abusers?

This thread has a wide range of meanings for "alpha". They range from "completely let go and not give a shit what others think about you" (which is seemingly opposite of what The Red Pill is trying to do; become "alpha" by being what others want you to be), "do as you will, rather than as others will you to do" (which is also contradicting yours), "getting what you want", "not knowing what you want", and "being impatient".

This thread says that alpha is not an adjective but a noun, and is "a program for capitalizing on a dominant position." Can a malesub in a femdom club be alpha because he is found attractive by women, or is he not alpha because he is in a submissive position?

From the same thread, this post contends that being alpha is doing what you want rather than what you think women want. I don't see many Red Pill men with experience as women, so I doubt they can act on what women want without it being what they think women want.

How about Rollo Tomassi's post where he says alpha is a state of mind? That's a noun not an adjective. How are they interchangeable?

This comment in another thread says that alpha females cannot exist, or if they do they are simply "leaders". Are lesbians not female? Does alpha equal leadership? [This comment chain] between a Red Pill moderator and an endorsed member agree with that alphas are simply leaders of a pack. Nothing about what is attractive to women.

This comment in another thread says that alpha traits are those that The Red Pill finds desirable. Do all women find confidence and dominance and assertiveness and strength and masculinity attractive? He says that being alpha is synonymous with being all of those, and it's agreed with by /u/redpillschool that that is the correct answer. He says that that's it, and any further discussion will result in a ban. That doesn't leave much room for the mental gymnastics that will surely follow.

From the same thread, "alpha = dreams achieved". Then: "what is dreams achieved? What is attracted by women." I'm not sensing a whole lot of consistency.

Same thread, "alpha = manly". If alpha = manliness, and alpha = what is attracted by women, then manliness must be attracted by lesbian women. Do these terms only apply to dom/sub hetero relationships?

This comment says that alpha essentially means being a leader. All women find leaders attractive, or just most? How many is that "most"? He also says that being alpha is essentially freeing yourself from society and being your own man and finding truth, because that's essentially what The Red Pill is about, and The Red Pill is essentially about being alpha.

This comment chain sees /u/redpillschool saying being beta is being a chump, and being an alpha is having self respect. If previous definition have terrorists, liars, and cheaters as alphas, how can alpha also mean having self-respect?

These comments say that alpha is either too meaningless a label or that alpha is some vague idealized version of masculinity. How many women are attracted to that description of an alpha?

This comment says that "alpha" is just shorthand for basic male instincts. What's with the lack of women in these definition?

This thread says that being alpha is maintaining a hierarchy and functionality of a group, and not just for your own benefit. Strange that it's not about being independent and going your own way, as other definitions have suggested. This one was even endorsed by an endorsed member. Other comments in the thread suggest that being alpha is having personal integrity. Very strange that lying and cheating are synonymous with personal integrity.

This comment by an endorsed member in the same thread says that you actually take power, and that makes you alpha. Manipulation and violence are means to taking that power and becoming alpha. Does this mean that women find manipulation and violence attractive? How does can this coexist with the self respect definition?

But wait, domestic violence is despicable! I guess alphas are despicable on The Red Pill. Who knew you'd guys think like those damn feminazis in /r/TheBluePill?

Damn it, wait again! This comment says that the domestic abuse is actually attractive, and it's by an endorsed contributor, too! How can the leader of /r/TheRedPill and an endorsed contributor have such differing views on the same exact topic in the same exact thread? It's almost as if there isn't consistency...

This thread contends that confidence, adaptability, lying, and going his own way are traits of a "faux-alpha" traits.

TL;DR "alpha" is not used consistently across The Red Pill, by The Red Pill staff, endorsed contributors, or even consistently by individuals.

These definitions are often contradictory and mutually exclusive. I want you to reconcile all of these definitions. Then I want you to take that alpha, and I want you prove that the quote in the title, which is what I was discussing before you came along, is true. I'm tired of this conversation, and if I haven't made my point after 9,500 characters and two dozen links, I don't think I ever will.

This is an ultimatum; prove that all women desire that alpha. If you can't, whether it be because you lack the evidence or because it's false, just don't bother responding.

AshleyYakeley · 2013-11-25T00:43:18+00:00

I think they're useful for representing two particular kinds of behaviour, "dominant" and "nurturing". I like the "Married Game" understanding that both kinds of behaviour are necessary to maintain a long-term relationship.

As you say, there's no serious connection to ethology, and if one is going to get serious about evolutionary psychology, then it seems likely both behaviours are adaptive in some context, whereas TRP seems to think of alpha/beta as evopsych winners and losers. If that were the case, today everyone would be very alpha.

mrpoopistan · 2013-11-26T05:57:05+00:00

Human submissiveness and dominance should be viewed as a spectrum. Much like autism or sociopathy, everyone falls somewhere on the spectrum. And also, much like those spectrum, going too far in one direction or the other can be a source of disordered behavior.

A lot of the attraction of the "alpha" tag comes from guys who feel they've been put upon by society, women, family, school, etc. So right off the bat its fan club tends to be its biggest shortcoming, since a lot of them are just basically fanboys fantasizing about how fantastic it would to tell everyone in the world to go fuck themselves.

That said . . . the simple fact is that everyone is dominant or submissive to some extent. A decent amount of this is contextual, such as when you go to work and act submissively toward the people who deposit money in your bank account every week. Like anything contextual, it is both fungible and somewhat malleable with the right inputs.

The true uber-alpha male is an all-around bad thing. This is the guy who falls under the heading of the old Chris Rock joke about ending up "in prison or dead" if you did everything mentioned in a rap song. Unsurprisingly, there aren't a lot of these guys out in the world because its just not an efficient model (otherwise chimps would rule the world instead of us).

On balance, you should view alpha-vs-beta as a rough outline of human behavior. Much like you need to know some geometry to understand trig which in turn is blended with with algebra and informs your understanding of calculus, so it is the same with alpha-vs-beta. Declaring something as "that's alpha" or "that's beta" in absolutist terms is about as brilliant as deciding you don't need calculus "because one half base times height, bee-yatch!"

Just as calculus isn't rendered useless simply because there are people who can barely understand the limits of geometry, the spectrum of dominant-submissive behavior in humans isn't rendered useless simply because some 15 y.o. on Reddit who can't get laid starts tossing around the term alpha in order to feel like a badass. Dominance and submission are an important aspect of human behavior because a large portion of human existence is informed by imposing, seeking, stealing, subverting, or sucking up to power in order to perpetuate our own status and pass along our genetic code to future generations.

koukol · 2013-11-25T16:46:13+00:00

From what I have gleaned : In the early 90s, what would later become the pua movement started to develop theories based on sociology, anthropology, psychology and ethology.

One of the most prevalent considerations they based themselves on is primitive mankind. A commonly advocated theory was that women were hard wired to seek a partner that would ensure the safety of both her and her progeny.

They would therefore seek to associate themselves with stronger males, or with leaders within their community, as those were the most apt to garantee a stable living.

As for those men, they would have their pick of the women, while their "lieutenants" would choose from those their leader discarded. And so on and so forth, descending the social ladder.

Now, there has been a continued interest both from the scientific and the pua communities regarding social hierarchies within the animal realm, as well as the mating practices observed within those realms.

Alpha, beta, all the way to omega are terms well known when it comes to wolves. The alpha male and the alpha female are the only one allowed to reproduce within a pack. The beta is the enforcer. The omega, sort of like the scapegoat.

Of particular interest is the way each member of a pack behaves towards an alpha. Alpha eats first. Omega eats last.

When in the alpha's presence, each pack member adopts a posture befitting his rank within the pack. The omega lowers his bodies almost at ground level. The beta slumps slightly.

Another interesting examples in ape societies. The silver back gorilla or the alpha chimp are the only ones supposed to mate within a community. They are the ones that, either through their stature (bigger tends to be better), or by their demeanor, ensure their group's stability and cohesion.

This video promotes studies that have been led, showing to what degree the term "alpha" (as seen in ape society) is applicable to human. This is a must watch if you want to better understand what is generally meant by trpers, when they use the term alpha.

Of course, we do not live like chimps, and the alpha/beta displays are much more subtle (all the more so because we are a sophisticated race). It doesn't help that some still see being alpha is thumping your chest and talking loudly.

But these terms are best used as indicators of one's behavior within a group, not a fixed, deterministic status.

edit: syntax

nicethingyoucanthave · 2013-11-25T14:00:58+00:00

(1) a conceptually coherent definition for what "alpha" and "beta" actually mean

Here's an explanation from National Geographic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCYVCI9NGUU

Does that answer it for you?

(2) an explanation of why categorizing men as "alpha" or "beta" can provide a valid and accurate description of human behavior?

technically, it's behaviors, not entire men who are (supposed to be) categorized.

If these behaviors are happening, then they are "an accurate description of human behavior" - that's just tautology. It works with any behavior. I might note that some people will go shopping on black friday and other people wont. That too is an accurate description of human behavior.

Perhaps you mean to ask something else, but it really sounds like you've just got a bug up your ass because some people are shining a light on an aspect of human sexuality that you would rather not have illuminated.

lokidemon731 · 2013-11-24T20:10:57+00:00

I am an the alpha. And the omega.

Whisper · 2013-12-05T00:12:19+00:00

There have been repeated posts in TRP explaining how alpha is a behaviour pattern, not a person. These would answer your question if you read them.

Title	What is an "alpha"?
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	8
Comments	29
Date	November 24, 2013 7:17 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1rd3yo/what_is_an_alpha/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/what-is-an-alpha.286563 https://theredarchive.com/post/286563

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