~ archived since 2018 ~

[Humor] Honesty

cryobabe

February 16, 2017

916 upvotes

Archived from /r/PussyPassDenied

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Post Information

Title	[Humor] Honesty
Author	cryobabe
Upvotes	916
Comments	50
Date	February 16, 2017 3:31 AM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PussyPassDenied
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/pussypassdenied/comments/5ucf3o/humor_honesty/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PussyPassDenied/humor-honesty.931845 https://theredarchive.com/post/931845

Comments

[–]awhaling 74 points75 points76 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Kinerae 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Oriolebird9 40 points41 points42 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Eggyweggys1 9 points10 points11 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]furrowsmiter 23 points24 points25 points 9 years ago (40 children) | Copy Link

[–]Retir3d 16 points17 points18 points 9 years ago (39 children) | Copy Link

[–]furrowsmiter 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (26 children) | Copy Link

[–]Fhyrestar 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

[–]rebellionmarch 6 points7 points8 points 9 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

[–]SlipcasedJayce 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]rebellionmarch 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

I cannot use that term for it, that is a term of biology and it already has a definition, the closest I can get is "Nonsexual" but my bigger issue, is that as a sexually productive species, driven by instinctual need to Breathe, Drink, Eat and Fuck (in that order) anyone lacking sexual interest is suffering an illness of the mind, to say that state is natural is no different than saying anorexia is natural, and up until recently it was treated as mental illness, but the "PC SJW" direction of the past decade or so has seen this overturned because of the queer communities feelings.

EDIT - on a keyboard and off my mobile allow me to clarify: A person who chooses not to act on sexual attraction, and who has no desire to pursue sexual activity does not have any illness, they have simply made a choice. No to be specific I am saying that someone who has passed through puberty, the time when your body is flooded with chemicals telling you "Think with the thing between your legs!", to pass through that stage and not experience any form of sexual attraction at all is a problem, and that is what would fall under mental illness. And that is why I go with "Not Interested" because a healthy person has the attraction, but can choose to not give a shit, but a person lacking the attraction in any form, is unhealthy so while the math lends 4 possible options, our genetic makeup does not, at least allowing for a healthy mind.

[–]SlipcasedJayce 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Fhyrestar 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]rebellionmarch 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Fhyrestar 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]PukeShytalker 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

[–]rebellionmarch 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

First I'll get the simple one out of the way: Intersex, this is a mutation, a fuck-up in the womb and as such no all-encompassing definitions can be laid on it, those afflicted live a difficult life, period.

As for this continuous "Gender is a social construct" crap, I say this, I say this again and again, Psychology is not yet an actual fleshed out science, it is a field of research, theory and experiment solely, there are many things psychology needs before it can call itself Science and the most important is this: Repeatable verifiable testable results for it's findings and theories This it does not have it is all of it, guesswork, estimation and the practice of psychiatry is a bunch of charlatan work aimed at selling drugs that can be summed up as this "A ridiculous pas de deux between doctor and patient ensues: the patient pretends to be ill, and the doctor pretends to cure him."

Now, the field of Psychology when it becomes a full science will be (as I have said to many before) quite possibly the most world-changing and important of the sciences, it is so vastly complex, consider: we have more understanding and grasp of the infinite expanse of space an the celestial bodies therein, than we have of our own minds.

but as it is, this is not yet the case, and so, treating these ridiculous not-formed ideas as fact and concrete is foolish and harmful. Biology rules in this realm as Biology is proven fact, not theory, There are Males, and Females, Men and Women and that is the extent of nature your intersex is exception, mutation, mistake.

[–]PukeShytalker 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

Regardless of whether or not psychology is a credible science yet or not (I honestly don't know) to say that because there is no concrete evidence we should disregard the claims of these poor people who honestly believe that they are trapped by social norms is absurd. It's not a sole matter of psychology, it's preference. If you want to be called John but your name is Adam I am not going to call you Adam I am going to respect your decision to be called john. It is as simple as that. Biological sex is separate from gender. It does not matter if they were originally the same thing since literary definitions are determined by human evolution. If the definition of gender begins to change in mass then the definition has already changed.

And as for intersex being a mutation that again does not matter when it comes to my argument. They are born with both body parts so what are they called? Simply a mutation? If so then that definition is utterly disgusting. Humans are humans just call them what they want to be called and stop putting people inboxes.

[–]rebellionmarch 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]PukeShytalker 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]rebellionmarch2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yes, this I understand. that is an argument based in unfounded research, not in verifiable science, my argument, one based in scientific verifiable fact not theory is that there are two genders as evidenced by chromosomes and bodyparts. Gender is a term that was misappropriated surrounding a pretty awful treatment of a person actually and it can be summed up as this:

Okay. So there was this doctor named John Money and he gets it in his head that sex is separate from gender. So he gets this kid named David Reimer. Different stories will tell you different details, but as far as we know SOMETHING happened to Reimer's penis. He either had an extreme micro-phallus, a botched circumcision, something was "wrong" with his penis. So, in comes Doctor Money offering a solution. "Because his dick doesn't work, we can raise him as a woman because there's no biological imperative, "masculine" and "feminine" aren't inherent to men and women respectively, they're learned behaviors." So Reimer is raised as a girl, and he doesn't like that. He grows up tearing off his dresses, demanding to play with his brothers toys, urinating standing up despite being ordered not to. Eventually, Reimer learned he was born a man and simply stopped living as a woman. Now, any reasonable person would look at this and say "Okay, Money's theories were wrong, there's a biological, behavioral imperative to gender." But Money's the kind of guy who simply can't admit wrongness. He harassed Reimer well into adulthood, furious that he DARED to prove Money's theories wrong. Demanding Reimer get further surgeries to finally give him a "proper" vagina. There are some allegations that Money forced Reimer and his brother to simulate sex with David as the "bottom", in order to attempt to help Reimer accept his role as feminine but the Swede university that has access to the documents that would prove or disprove this hasn't let anyone so much as take a peek at them. Anyway, after realizing he'd never be able to self-actualize and live the life his biology compels him to, Reimer parked his car, put a shotgun in his mouth and killed himself. So that's where this theory of sex being separate from gender, the one time it was actually tested on a person that wasn't transgender it ended with bits of brain and skull splattering the inside of a car. Yet people will still claim it's perfectly valid as a theory, that biology ends with sex and gender is merely a set of learned behaviors.

that summary came from someone else and I just felt like u/CHIM_ERA said it well enough

[–]PukeShytalker1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That is just one example of an extremist who obviously went to far. How that boy must have felt because of the loss of his penis is not the same as the countless of people who believe they were born in the wrong body. You're claiming that biology dictates gender because of one example. I am using all of the people who feel as though they are put into the wrong biological category as examples and you say they just have mental illnesses. How can you argue my point when the the whole basis for it is the exact inverse of your example... And there are hundreds of thousands if not millions.

All of the people who are actively informing those around them that they don't feel like they belong in what the current interpretation of what gender is and those like the example you laid out are two sides of the same coin.

[–]rebellionmarch1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]PukeShytalker1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

What I am telling you is that if there is a collection of people who FEEL trapped in their own bodies and want to be called something other than their biological sex, why is it such a big deal?

I am going to have to look into your statement on how that was the fist case because I highly doubt that no one before them felt like who they were told to be was different from who they felt they were.

There does not have to be a scientific basis for you to respect someone on something that literally has no negative impact on your everyday life. You do not have to wait for the newest scientific journal or the DSM. You are CLAIMING that these people have mental illnesses and I am STATING that as of now a wide majority of people strongly believe that gender is a social construct. So until there is concrete evidence to support either one of our claims just respect people and treat them how they want to be treated since it is not doing anything to harm you or anyone else for that matter.

[–][deleted]1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]rebellionmarch1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The thing is, trans people exist, though I don't know if you disagree there or not. Point is the majority of studies done prove that transitioning will treat gender dysphoria, the driving factor behind trans people's desire to transition.

It is fact that trans people experience mental health issues (such as anxiety and depression) disproportionately to their peers. It is in line with many people's experiences, that these extra mental health issues also disappear or are easier to fight once the gender dysphoria is treated. It would be safe to assume that the gender dysphoria is linked to these other mental health issues.

Given how treatment has helped so many people experiencing gender dysphoria, to become self actualized and to better combat other mental health issues or life challenges, how can you be so confident it's just a coincidence? Is there other reasoning that does not support the idea that these are linked? Is it worth rejecting this idea of sex and gender being different, if it causes so many people harm to believe so? If a doctor thought like that, these people may not have been able to transition, fact is they would be in a far worse spot without these treatments.

[–]rebellionmarch1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You obviously have not read my previous comments.

Also you make no mention of the number of trans people who years after surgery kill themselves because of the irreversible choice they made a quick google search of "sex change regret" will lead to many sources (as with much on the internet some credible some not, bring salt and read carefully).

but in case you do not read my previous commentary Psychology cannot yet make repeatable verifiable use of the scientific method to prove it's theories and ideas Psychiatry is a guessing game largely fueled by drug companies to push expensive medicine. the fact that Psychology relies on matters of the mind that cannot be verifiably measured puts everything into question, it also relies heavily on the patient self-reporting feedback, which again is not verfiably measurable or at all scientific.

When Psychology can accomplish this it will be very likely the most important field of science there is, but that day has not yet come.

[–][deleted]1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I did read them! Hence the discussioN! :)

I understand sex change regret exists, it would be illogical to assume every transition was successful for the subject. This is specific to a full surgical transition though, which is a small aprt of the discussion. It's something that should not be dismissed though, I think it highlights how serious this issue is- that this is not as simple as we like to think.

There is one famous study out there that is cited often by anti-trans people, but is famously discredited, I will try to find it Here it is: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/myths-about-transition-regrets_b_6160626.html

Like you said, something so subjective like this isn't going to be verifiable measured. Mistakes will happen. But given what happens when we don't treat these people, (2-4x more likely to commit suicide than peers) it's illogical to say we should not.

(By the way, I think you are confused about the treatment part of this because you mentioned drug companies. Treatment can be as simple as living privately as a gender, living outwardly as a gender, using hormone treatments, and even implants/surgery.)
Many levels of transitioning treat dysphoria- it's all dependant on what works for the subject. Not everyone uses hormones, and many do not get surgery that is a very last resort.

I suppose my point is that until we have statistical facts to support this idea that trans people are full of shit and just crazy/confused, there is no point in denying it's existence. There's a reason for everything that has been done to help trans people, it's not all baseless guessing and feelings.

If we help these people as much as we can and learn about gender and sexuality in the process. I think it helps to realise how these people are 100% like us outside of all of this. Compare it to how homosexuals are 100% like us outside of their sexual/partner preferences.

[–]rebellionmarch1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Supporting something in lack of facts is dangerous, especially when that something leads to people amputating body parts.

Facts tell us that treatment of gender dysphoria CAN BE very successful when these people actively transition in some way. There is a reason people often try to treat their gender dysphoria by transitioning in some way - because it CAN work! Because the alternative of this is leaving these people to suffer a life where they are - statistically - disproportionately more likely to off themselves due to this, I disagree with your assertion that we need a well-documented peer-reviewed study completed before we can even consider this treatment method.

I think another good reason to not wait to treat these people, is.. well just take a look at global warming science and how it's treated by political groups. Somehow I doubt that even with a wealth of scientific information, that there would be many listening to it unless it confirmed their bias.

Consider that the day comes when psychology does have those facts, what if those facts say that gender dysphoria is not a thing

Well the experience is documented, it's not like it doesn't exist. It's still yet to be completely defined though. It's like depression, anxiety, it's hard to quantify and hard to define because there is no one true experience of it.

Unless you are convinced that 100% of people who have transitioned are fooling themselves and/or suffer from transition regret, do you not have to admit that transitioning can be a beneficial change for someone's life?

Also, that is a huffington post article, please do not tell me you use articles over peer reviewed information.

My heavens no, journalists very rarely interpret these things correctly, they typically have lay-man understandings of these things, omit information, and make grand assumptions to fit their story.

The article was relevant because it covered the wide-spread discussion that has surrounded the study we're discussing. It's noteable to follow up on the the authors themselves as they have been trying to combat the wide-spread (and sometimes intentional) misunderstandings that anti-LGBTQ "jounalists" have used this study to spread.

[–]rebellionmarch1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

And what say you too all those who get Mutilated/Amputated and then cannot turn back? One can always wait for the facts to say "yes this is the solution" but one can never undo such a thing. The few who have re-re-assignment are those "Lucky" enough to have merely gotten implants, but anyone who cut off their tits/dick is fucked. It is better to err on the side of caution then to indulge feelings that can result in mutilation. And yes I personally do believe that Every.Single.Trans. is affected by something else, but this is aside from my personal opinion. Facts before Feelings end of story, and any who "feel better" after the surgery are in my eyes experiencing a temporary relief due to the symptom of a problem being treated, combined with muddled decision making of a mind polluted by hormone treatments not meant for their body. Just like you can take medicine to relieve your stuffy nose when you have a cold, that medicine is not treating the cold, it is stopping tge symptom temporarily so you can go about your life, but you still have a cold, and can still spread it, a bandaid, not a cure.

[–]fartloud 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Krynja 12 points13 points14 points 9 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]Voltaire99 23 points24 points25 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]PukeShytalker 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Voltaire99 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]PukeShytalker 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I know the argument was flawed and I'd technically be considered a hypocrite, but the last part was supposed to be a hyperbolic statement stressing how dumb and flawed the original argument is. Granted in hindsight it wasn't the best choice.

I lurk on here a lot but this thread really struck a chord with me since I dont see any sources on these claims that the mindset is part of a greater mental illness.

Take transgendered people for instance. Once they perform a body change they're the happiest they've ever been and that's the end of it. They live their lives just like the rest of us. It's odd to me that instead of letting these people be happy we call them sick in the head without any real concrete proof. They're not hurting themselves or anybody else. To me it seems as if because there is an anomaly people feel the need to jot it down as mental illness.

I'd also like to add that I've been multitasking all day during my replies and so I haven't proof read them that well. There might be glaring mistakes in my text. Oh well.

[–]Voltaire99 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]PukeShytalker 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link