Equality in a nutshell [Facebook bullshit]

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While most discriminatory laws are despised by the majority of the public, laws in regard to restricting the rights of young people seem to be unanimously support by the public.

For example, the age of majority is the age when a person assumes legal control over themselves; their persons, actions, and decisions. Shouldn't everyone have legal control over themselves?

However, nobody seems to notice or care that young people have no rights for some reason. There's even a subreddit devoted to the rights of young people: r/youthrights

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I just want to ask one question, do you actually think i think this is a serious issue when i made a joke about wrinkles? because honestly, you must be as stupid as a (rad)feminist if thats the case. I have a laugh because its on here and so why not, but i dont post it (infact i think there is too much of this stuff these days), i just have a laugh when it turns up because why wouldn't i? because laughing at a clickbait posts is not in anyway suggesting its an actual issue... laughing at it demonstrates I DONT think its an issue, im laughing not to bring attention to it, but because i just think the whole thing is so stupid it warrants laughing at (i guess you cant tell im laughing at it as much as i am with it) plus the peeps in the post are kinda well witty?

i dont think i see anyone actually advocate we do ANYTHING about it... most are calling it what it is, a fucking joke... no need to be so serious... http://m.memegen.com/6nvvhd.jpg

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Laughs cause wrinkles though....

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[–]derpylord1431 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I have see a rise in it (though i dont know about the up votes thing) and as i have expressed in other comments on this thread, i do think its an issue, that said, my point was simple, some threads like this are okay, being too serious can be an issue, if the amount of them is the problem, then there are more effective ways of addressing it, for instance, mods enforcing the "low quality" post rule and only leaving ones with decent discussion. honestly speaking, when i posted the above comment there were only like 4 comments on the thread and i thought it was going to be deleted due to being "low quality" - it is on topic (atleast in the "social realm" not something i honestly consider a mens rights issue, but others do...), but its a "low quality image post" which breaks the first rule on the side bar.

if you check my post history, youll see i rarely respond to these posts (one of only a few in my years on the sub), i normally reply to far more serious topics (though i did respond to possibly one other thread like this recently, because there was a point i wanted to make... about Pyrrhic victories), i honestly did expect this thread to get removed, the sheer fact it has gotten so large was outside my expectations (because i rarely engage in these topics, i didnt realise they got so large so quickly)

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It is a joke. I straight up do look like Peewee Herman after I shave. It's found it funny.

This sub isn't about men's rights, it's for people who resent women.

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The double standard is generally in the response. The guy will generally be considered a misogynistic douchebag, the girl won't be considered anything.

This. If you dump a man because he doesn't make enough money, that's you looking out for your interests. If you dump a woman because she doesn't put out enough sex, that's you being a douchebag asshole.

Even though the comparison is actually quite clear, what you bring to the table for your partner to enjoy.

In such a brazen form as "if he shaves and looks like a nerdy fuck, dump his ass" vs "if she takes off her makeup and looks like an ugly man-girl, dump her ass", its much easier to show the double standard without having to put in effort by people spinning the narrative of "but money and sex aren't the same thing so you can't compare a guy's wallet to a woman's sex drive!".

Women also routinely get told and tell each other to not accept a guy with a sex drive that isn't on par with them, and that's not sexism, that's normal. If a guy does it, its sexism and douchery.

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[–]vhisic3 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

firstly i dont align with the alt right, the regular right, left, alt left or whatever other directions you can think of, and heck i dont agree with lots of the stuff posted here. I dont think i ever claimed to be a victim, nor do i strive to become one. I post and read in this sub because there are genuine things discussed here that need more attention. I generally dont have an issue with the un extreme parts of feminism ( i picked that sub in my original post as a thought of where you might have come from to troll because thats where many of the trollier posts here seem to originate, ive since been corrected and made the appropriate changes). Really i can support any cause i deem worthy without having to align myself with an exclusive group to do it. Both sides of these kind of arguments have good and bad extremes and both have legitimate and very non legitimate that they both support and protest. If you are going to try and get a rise from me by throwing insulting names around its not going to work. its 3 am here and i wont be exhibiting any forms of emotion in my writings so if you wanna keep chatting lets keep it to a max of 1 insult per post.

Druid #1 class of all classes.

[–]upthatknowledge1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]vhisic1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You say we should just ignore extreme parts of feminism while in the same breath you fail to ignore the crazier parts of MRA's, sup with that? Anyway, im sympathetic to causes, not groups or affiliations. Much of the alt right causes might affect me closely than those of the left and i have more of an opinion and im also able to discuss such things in this setting without being ridiculed. Whereas my opinion of many more left leaning subjects is voided because of my gender and skin colour.

unfortunately we cannot ignore the crazier parts of either side, because they claim to speak to for the rest of us.

My only complaint is the that wish the portal area was joined to the main area, 2 loading screens and running over to the 2nd portal is tedious. Otherwise its one of my favourite ones that i have seen

[–]upthatknowledge1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]vhisic1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You gotta take everything on the internet with a grain (or a silo load) of salt. Unfortunately most of the posts that get taken out of context were just intended as jokes, didnt actually break a rule or like this one just slices enough interest to get a conversation going and is therefore allowed. Dont judge the sub on the submitted content or even the top comments, this sub is full of people who dont escape their own eco chambers too and i wont deny it, we have our own crazies and mods can only control so much. The problem is that when crazies get into a pack they all start patting each other on the back with upvotes and that shit gets the most visibility.

Jump into the comments, sort by new and ignore the jokes. You can find some people who just wanna have a real conversation even on posts like this you can see how many of us think this whole post was a waste of time, but it sparked conversations so i doubt it will be removed, but it will die just quickly as it appeared.

that tree sprout gets me everytime, should be in the middle.

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What did I say that was hypocritical?

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I use the term "self-described" because I don't like to put anything into the word feminist other than what I believe it means, which is basically equal rights for all genders and sexes. I don't like the term humanist because it doesn't carry the same weight as feminist, seeing that women have bigger issues with human rights globally than men, and while men's (read: equal) rights are important, I generally take the side of those most disadvantaged.

I suppose the main reason why I'm talking about all this here, is many people put up this idea of a feminist Boogeyman, and if you are a real advocate of Human Rights then you care about everybody, not just your sisters. I believe the patriarchy is real, but just in the 30 years I've been on this planet I've seen things change especially in the United States, and things are getting more and more equal everyday, regardless of the dividing political climate we are in now.

TL;DR I agree with the message, but the method could use some work. We're all on the same side if the side is equal rights

[–]RabbiDickButt-1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Lol I hope that tldr wasn't for me. We're probably more alike than not. I've always thought of myself as a humanist, and by your outlook I see very much the same in you.

At face value, Feminism seems to have undergone a paradigm shift since it's latter movements and many of its constituents have called on an intensifying of specific values rather than focusing on human rights advocacy. I wish it wasn't so divisive a topic but on reddit, calling yourself a feminist is akin to drawing battle lines. I realize that perception is by and large wrong, but I felt like I should mention it.

I personally have dislike for calling the institutionalized leadership a patriarchy, mostly because of it's implication of male fault, but I think that institutionalized prejudices exist and are a problem. I too generally am in favor of the disadvantaged, but up to a point. In truth, I could go on at length about this but I prefer talking rather than typing.

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I've subbed here for a year or two and I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen actual posts about men doing things for men's rights. It's almost always 'look at wut this feminazi did' or 'we're angry over an article from Jezebel, even though we all know Jezebel is garbage."

The last really good post I saw was one about a bunch of black men trying to be father figures for a bunch of kids in Baltimore or somewhere that didn't have dads. I don't see posts about men or women doing anything, not even fundraisers or donating or buying a homeless dude a burger, just article arguments and stuff.

I'd like to see event postings people could go to, maybe a Movember MR charity group where we all get together to raise money for that charity, or something like a weekly discussion post about things we've gone out and done outside Reddit. Members could share anything from talking to a male friend about his health or supporting them through a struggle, maybe donating to a men's shelter they might live near, or things like that. There's enough of us that we could do some good out in the world

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It's not my fault that reality is "transphobic".

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How exactly is the post woman hating or transphobic?

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There is significant evidence for gender identity being a hard-wired result of the development of certain brain structures, a breakdown of which you can read here. If you want to talk about logic and truth, look at the actual evidence behind gender dysphoria and sexual dimorphism of the brain, that indicates that transgender people are born with brains that more closely resemble those of the gender with which they identify, which cannot be changed by any amount of conditioning or medication.

Clinical evidence has shown hormone replacement therapy to be effective in improving our mental health and well-being. In fact, it's the only treatment that has been found to be effective, even after 50 years of research trying to identify alternatives. That's why it is endorsed by every major medical association in the country - not due to PC culture or pressure from a trans agenda, but because the science supports it.

You can disagree all you like, but don't pretend like it's based on logic or truth. It's based on your emotional reaction to trans people, and it's not supported by available clinical evidence.

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Tbh I've only seen a fraction of what this sub has to offer. I could be making a unfair assumption.

What I have seen has been piss poor so far though. Arguments like more men die in industrial accidents than women, which I never even expected to come across somebody so dead set that men are just as/if not more so oppressed than women, that I'd actually have to explain why this might be the case.

I mean, I thought even the most mouth frothingest "Menemist" would acknowledge that that's because more men are employed in industry jobs.

I'm also aware that the sort of shaming (wet geezers) doesn't really help anything when it comes to debate, but I actually didn't come here to debate I just found it on all. It's not my responsibility to educate others out of their ignorance so personally I believe it's fair to pick and chose when to do it. And that's not to say I only debate to educate others out of ignorance, it's nice to debate to educate yourself too, but there's certain forums where the people are far more ignorant than I/you and there just really isn't anything to learn.

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facts like the proportion of men in leading positions in companies

Again, that's not a wage gap. It's people doing different jobs. Is some of that discrimination? Probably. But the majority of it? Before you answer, consider this:

Payscale’s report indicated that men who own small businesses earn a salary that ranges from $42,575 to $96,111. Women, on the other hand, only earn $31,380 to $71,140 every year.

A gender wage gap among owners. People who within the means of their business, set their own salary. And men take more than women.

It is you that has a cognitive dissonance that women are simply entitled to equal money. This data, which is available from several other sources, demonstrates a difference either in ability or priorities of women to demand better wages or seek those positions in the first place.

That's not a wage gap. That's you having cognitive dissonance.

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Because feminism, as it is on paper, isn't really feminism in practice. Everyone who I knows who claims to be feminist just says woman should be paid more and talks about how evil white males are. And when you try to discuss actual issues of gender equality such as incarceration rates and how the law treats both men and women differently, gender roles, and rape issues for both men AND women you get immediately dismissed because men, apparently, have it so good and only women's issues need fixing. They are so focused on "the patriarchy" and issues that affect only women (and since the start of the movement, they always have been) that the real issues that lead towards progress are completely ignored. To be fair, though, this is the issue with nearly every activist movement including Men's Rights, Occupy Wallstreet, Black Lives Matter, Feminism, etc. and basically every hot button topic. People fight over the symptoms and not the causes.

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Source please? Because every source I've ever seen shows the opposite. They are all over this sub.

Guess what- THAT IS AGAINST THE LAW. There are laws in place that dictate this. So what are you talking about? Where and when does this happen?

edit: Wow, you're a guy and going around cucking yourself out talking about wage gap?

How about you take YOUR cognitive* dissonance and stop spouting crap lmao. Why are you going all over /r/mensrights talking about wage gap? You're full of shit.

Prove it - go ahead. Prove it to me. You can't and I garuntee you people here have MANY more sources and verifiable facts to show you are incorrect than you have showing you're right.

Why do you believe in the wage gap so much? Why push that bullshit? It does nothing to help women - maybe fight for a real cause and help women being held back in other countries were TRUE oppression is happening.

The wage gap is a myth. This is fact. I have been employed for as long as I remember and every company I've ever worked at has payed fairly to both men and women. Guess what positions pay more than in-office positions? My companies Sales positions. Guess how many women apply to be a receptionist compared to a sales person? It's astronomical the difference.

THAT is where wage gap comes from. Because Susy here is being paid $15 an hour being a receptionist - nothing wrong with that we have men here being paid that too.

However for every 1 Susy that is applying for a receptionist position 15 men are trying to get one of our Sales positions which can easily pay 6 figures if you're good at it and have the work ethic.

We have had 2 successful women sales people in the history of our company. They both make bank. But for those 2, there are 45+ men in the sales department. We WANT to hire more women there. We cannot.

Maybe women need to look at themselves and realize "If I'm going to choose receptionist, child care, gender studies, education and those types of fields in schools over STEM fields, appliable trades, business/sales....then maybe I need to accept I'll be paid less..just like Men do when they make the same decisions!"

Chew on that for a bit...think about it. Because there is no evidence both anecdotal nor factual/statistical that shows Mr Receptionist gets paid $17 an hour while Mrs. Receptionist gets paid $15. Or that Mr. Doctor MD gets paid more than Mrs.

[–]killcole 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Sources are below.

I'm not all over r/MensRights. I came here for the first time via r/All yesterday and obviously people must have found what I said engaging judging by the replies in my inbox - which is what's bringing me back. You'll realise there's one other MenRights thread I'm in, that I also found yesterday, and that's it.

As to why I believe in the Wage gap so much? Well tbh, I wouldn't pinpoint a degree to which I "believe" it. I recognise it as a statistically verified fact. I believe in fighting for wage equality based on gender, as a CAUSE, no more than I do for wage equality based on race, or issues of police brutality due to race, underrepresentation of men in custody battles. These are all issues I think we need to solve. I'm not issue biased. I just recognise theres some shit that as a society, we need to sort out. Some are more pressing than others, usually depending on your own circumstance and what resonates with you. For me, the gender pay gap isn't exactly at the top of the list but it's on it.

The wage gap is a myth. This is fact. I have been employed

No shade but this is exactly where you're going wrong in your view of the world. You look at your own circumstance through your own lense and don't see any problems, so you assume there is one, even though in mass surveys the problem is brought to the fore.

Sources:

One

Two

Three - perhaps the most interesting. Touches on some of the points a lot of people who deny the pay gap choose. Like how it exists to a larger degree in skilled professions (trades like plumbing etc) BUT ALSO at similar rates for Managers, Directors and the like.

It also touches on how the gender gap has decreased over time - progress we wouldn't have had if it was up to wage gap deniers who have existed for years (fortunately most people saw through the bullshit). Touches on lowest earners having the lowest pay gap too.

But STILL acknowledges that as the jobs become more high paying, the discrepancy continues to grow.

Four Headline aside, this article does actually acknowledge the pay gap, but says it isn't AS wide as it's made out to be in certain geographic areas, but is wide in others. Furthermore, although it downplays the pay gap in certain places, it does still cite a gap in earnings due to the glass ceiling.

Five

Six Seven

[–]NonsensicalOrange 6 points7 points8 points 9 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

Arguments like more men die in industrial accidents - that's because more men are employed in industry jobs.

Isn't the same true for any gender issue, no matter what the issue is there will be an underlying cause. There is still a gender discrepancy with men taking on riskier jobs and suffering for it, then it is argued that men are suffering from their own problems and the cause for the job differences can be blamed on gender roles. That's how the whole gender political war works, then both sides just dismiss their opponent's problem like you did.

If feminists complain about sexism because of increased rates of sexual assault, can't manists complain about increased rates of assault, murder, or suicide? If feminists look for gender discrepancies related to work (like the pay gap), why is it more unreasonable for a masculist to bring up their own gender discrepancies, either as a rebuttal or complaint, to point out that men work longer hours in fields with lower work satisfaction and experience much higher risks of death or injury?

[–]killcole 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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It's a shame that Manists (ok, I'll embrace the term) position themselves that way.

Feminists have this complaint. The problem is, you're doing something similar, malists said men are more likely to die working and you said dismissed the complaint as ridiculous, then you blamed meninists for not listening. The issue is far more nuanced. Masculists also say feminists do exactly the same thing, not listening and misrepresenting the issues. Menists believe feminists villify menrightists, even saying that machoists endorse rape and patriarchy.

I'm pretty sure both sides feel that way. If one side feels the need to have it worse, they aren't going to take the other side's complaints seriously because it undermines their own. If one side advocates for a gender advantage, sometimes that can put the other gender at a disadvantage. There are things they can do together, but many things things also oppose the other, therefore the animosity.

[–]karikit-2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]LukaCola-2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Well, to be frank, it's not like these decisions or the rate at which men are harmed are at the hands of women... It's just that when we tralk about sexual assault and rape, men are the overwhelming perpetrators. Even when men are assaulted, it's more often by other men.

Suicide of course comes down to preferred methods, but isn't really a gendered issue because it's not one gender pushing an injustice. It's a mental health issue however.

why is it more unreasonable for a masculist to bring up their own gender discrepancies, either as a rebuttal or complaint, to point out that men work longer hours in fields with lower work satisfaction and experience much higher risks of death or injury?

Just to reiterate: Because men barred women from these positions for the most part in history. When there was a need it's not as if women refuse to join the work force. Feminists, if anything, fight for women to be a part of these roles just as much as men because that requires equal opportunity.

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That irony lmao

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[–]drazzy92-3 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Just like clockwork! That feminist whiner who complains, "This post isn't related to men's rights!!!!!!!!! Omg, I am so clever lmao and you all are idiots ctfu!!!!" Look, feminism is about "women's rights," but feminists are constantly talking about slut shaming, the "wage gap," and so on. These are not representative of a disparity in rights by gender.

However, that doesn't stop them from talking about it does it? Men's Rights is finally beginning to take off. We can't always focus on tackling the rights issues, because one of the biggest issues we have in our movement is our reputation. We should focus on bringing in more people right, correcting people who think that we just exist to oppose feminism and take away rights from women. The MRM has one of the worst reputations I've seen on a movement because of feminists..

Guess what else? We can't fucking do shit about the blatant sexism in the justice system and so on that men experience until we get more numbers on our side. These posts are showing up in the front page, raising awareness to the general public, much of whom do not know anything about the MRM other than the bullshit drivel that dribbles out of the mouths of feminists and so therefore these posts are useful because they bring in more people to the MRM. Just stop whining. Do you see a rule in the sidebar mandating that all posts are related to infringements on rights? No, you don't. So shut the fuck up.

Edit: Sorry, but it's the truth. The MRM is just merely a name of a movement. It's what we're stuck with, and our posts not literally relating to the words in our movement is not a problem nor is it against any rule in the sidebar.

It's posts like these that are more likely to make it to the front page. You know why? Because they're relatable. When I was younger I used to believe that the MRM was just anti-feminism full of feodras and neckbeards until I started seeing them on the front page often. I thought, "Hey, they can't be all that bad if they're making it on my front page so constantly," and here I am.

[–]RabbiDickButt4 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]drazzy921 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Actually, I just rechecked the context, and it appears I responded to the right person so my apologies once again. I didn't realize there were TWO people who responded with berating tones. However, I don't know how you can expect someone to respond calmly when you use words like "Idiot," and "dolt." Of course someone is going to fly off the handle especially when you've misinterpreted their comment completely.

I explained in my original comment that this post had little to do about "rights" for sure. I guess it was too long for some people to read in its entirety sadly. In any case, I explained the value of posts like these because they're more likely to raise awareness, thus opening up minds to the MRM and ideologies other than feminism. I was "indoctrinated" that way. I used to think the MRM was just "anti-feminism" until I started seeing it on my front page, which made me realize that it couldn't be all that bad.

Also, it's just silly to say "This doesn't relate to rights" because after all, it's just the name for the movement. "Meninism" doesn't have as much a ring to it as feminism does, and it's what we're stuck with. That doesn't mean we have to always talk about rights. We also talk about double standards, which is the topic of this post. I don't see the issue, and it just seems like the OP is just a feminist trying to rip into the MRM which happens constantly in this subreddit. Because of these relatable posts there are a lot of people on the side of the MRM, and now I've seen these kinds of posts make it to the front page.

Along with the actual important ones, like male suicide rates, and female on male rape. Crying about how the post doesn't literally relate to the words in the movement's name is absolutely ridiculous.

[–]RabbiDickButt1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Dude you really should reexamine the tone in which you start an argument. You are hostile right of the rip, call me a feminist whiner, label me a idiot ctfu(I don't even know what that is), suggest what I say is bullshit drivel, tell me to stop whining, and to shut the fuck up. You want me to treat you with what...respect, not call you an idiot or a dolt? Oh fuck off with that crybaby soccer player bullshit.

You say this post getting to the front page helps MRMs, when in fact it's divisive to it's own community, case in point right fucking here between the two of us, oh but wait you still think I'm some sort of femitwatcuckold or something. It's people like you, who can't get along or play nice with others that's the problem. If you can't start a civil discussion rather than starting an argument what fucking good is it to even extend to you a welcome.

I have no idea where your thought process is going. What does "meninism' not having a ring to it have to do with anything, or jump into other issues like suicide rates and rape. Weren't we talking about the value of this specific post to this sub. You say that you were anti-feminist and found this sub based on these kinds of post. I'll tell you what, other people avoid it for lacking to address more serious issues.

[–]drazzy921 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Alright, I didn't realize you were the OP of that comment, which I think would have been obvious if you had read my other comments. But anyway, it is still absolutely ridiculous to whine about how posts aren't related to the words in our name. I don't understand how this is "divisive" to you. I mean, yeah I don't really view this post as an example of what men experience in terms of sexism.

However, it's just a light-hearted and amusing post to me. To find it divisive requires effort on your part. As I said, not exactly an example of the real sexism that men face today, but it is still helping the MRM gain momentum. Did you even read my comment where I said that I used to think the MRM was full of neckbeards and fedoras when I was younger? I was a total feminist until I started seeing the MRM in my front page, and I actually thought to myself, "Hm, it can't be that bad if it keeps showing up in my front page." Then I started looking around, and my world opened up.

That is how a lot of people are "indoctrinated." So, as I said, any attention is good as long as it's not completely stupid. "Equality in a nutshell" was just an amusing title to me. It doesn't seem that the OP actually thinks this is sexism. It just depicts a woman being treated the same way as men, which believe me, I have seen people freak out over. I know a lot of women who say, "Real men love curves, dogs go after bones!" and then actively disparage and put down men who are overweight acting like they're somehow better because they're women.

So, it's definitely nice when I see women be denied the preferential treatment. I sincerely see no issue in this post, and anyone who does is just being silly.

[–]RabbiDickButt1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]drazzy921 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I wasn't saying they would be drawn in because they wanted to see more shitposts. I already said that I used to think it was a hate group until I started seeing it in my front page often. I thought to myself, "Hey, if it's getting so many upvotes and is on the front page that must mean it's not all that bad." I decided to take a gander, and when I read more about the movement my perspective changed completely.

Nobody is going to be lured in with shitposts, but it might compel them to do research into it. The fact is that the MRM has an awful reputation! A lot of people are not going to consider doing research into it, period. Even if they come up with valid points and whatnot. What really compelled me was the fact that it was being upvoted by so many redditors that it made it to the front page for me.

Because after all, most subreddits don't make it into the front page if they're hate groups and whatnot. But I still don't understand how it's "divisive" when you say that all of your inbox is inundated with opposition to the post itself. It would actually be divisive if there were just as many people in favor of it, and it seems that most people are not. Therefore it's not divisive at all.

Every movement will always attract shitty people and good people in general. The last nail in feminism's coffin for me was that not enough women were denouncing the lunatcis like Andrea Dworkin, who I think was the one who suggested killing off a percent of men. Some feminists were even going as far as to poke fun at it pretending to agree with it.

A lot of the feminists I knew in real life were literally crowning themselves as misandrists, and called themselves that. It was absolutely disgusting, and all we can do is be better than them. An amusing and light-hearted "shitpost" goes to show that the movement is diverse. It's funny, and "true" on some level so I just don't see any issue with it. People like you are making it divisive. If there is no rule on the sidebar opposing these posts then it is not a big deal.

And as I said, some people will be like me, and think "Hey, if it's on the front page then it probably isn't that bad!" and do their research and become indoctrinated like me.

[–]RabbiDickButt1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That context really helps in trying to understand your perspective. I wouldn't think that the front page is the best screening method for what is or isn't bad but if that's your measure than I won't argue. Just the same as you, I would be very happy if people felt compelled to learn about the MRM, even if it came from a polished turd. I, however am still skeptical of the benefit of posts like this being a first glance at the MRM. I want people to see the best of the MRM, not the silly. I think in your case you remained open minded and that's how you were able to reformat your views, but many people think in black and white, and if making them see the grey were as easy for them as it was for you I don't think there would be as many issues. I might just be too cynical to believe most people are capable of that kind of open-mindedness. As far as the like of Andrea Dworkin, she represents the fringes of radical feminism. I doubt many feminists would even associate with that women, but if that is what it took you to see the difference than I guess it's a good thing that lunatics like that exist, otherwise we might not see where the slippery slope leads.

[–]drazzy921 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Sadly, you are right. This is like, the first time I've ever started off arguing with someone on reddit especially in r/mensrights and it actually went from an argument to a civilized conversation. You're right that most people are so stubborn to the point where they're just fucking idiots. Sometimes it really takes away my breath how stubborn people are, and for no good reason whatsoever.

I mean, there are people out there who STILL cling on to the belief that weed is dangerous. For example, the DEA. Can someone tell me if they actually do believe that weed is dangerous, or are they just trying to keep themsleves relevant? Because I'm literally confused as all hell. However, I have faith in society, and I think most people are more similar to me than they want to admit. I mean, when it comes to me and my "beliefs/opinions," I just simply don't have the energy to be overly stubborn.

If I see something on my front page over and over that means it has a pretty significant following. Therefore that means it can't be that bad. It's like case studies -- You don't need to get EVERYONE in the world to participate in the study in order to come up with the conclusion and assertions because a group of 2,000 people is pretty representative of society as a whole. The same thing goes for MensRights. It may have 129,000 subscribers, but most likely only a small percent of them are even active or even read through the page at all. So, if it gets at least 10,000 upvotes and got on the front page it means that the average person agrees with it, I guess.

So, I don't know, anyone with a logical and rational mind would probably think that way. If something shows up in my front page I'm more inclined to give it a chance. Anyone who doesn't probably isn't worth having on our side anyway because they're so stubborn to the point of foolishness and we don't need them anyway. :)

[–]RabbiDickButt1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So I've so ideas about stubbornness, so here goes, our beliefs form the core of who we are, essentially our identity and beliefs form our values. Our values form our moral conscience, and collectively our morals become the ethics of a society. When you argue something, say like morals of abortion you are also engaging the belief that life is sacred. When people argue at the moral level it can be civilized but when you argue at the level of belief, it generally becomes hostile. I think that because beliefs form the core of our identity, attempting to change ones beliefs is akin to attacking an individual's identity. The person will attempt to maintain ego integrity and (this part is true) will go through the same physiological flight or fight response as if they were being physically attacked. When this happens the limbic system, frontal lobe, and other parts that control higher function, etc, etc shut down. When your beliefs are constantly being attacked then the neural pathways in the brain that support your beliefs are strengthened and ultimately creating the trait of stubbornness. This is also compiled by our genetic tendencies toward such behavior. Whenever I debate someone I try not to make a person feel like I am attacking their identity or their beliefs, instead my goal is usually to try to get them to see my point of view empathetically. Sometimes it works.

I partially disagree with you on weed. It's not exactly dangerous but there are definitely effects to one's health, irregardless I don't think it should be illegal. The DEA is tied with the Cartels as the biggest thing problem with drugs in the Northern Hemisphere. The DEA being an enforcement agency and the institution that classifies drugs is wrong and an obvious conflict of interest. It seems like Americans are beginning to believe that the whole "War on Drugs" just didn't work, and soon all the people employed as a result of the drug war are gonna lose or have to fight for their income. I believe, institutions like the DEA recognize this, are getting desperate and trying to shore up defenses against this possibility.

I had similar thoughts about the front page posts, and highly rated comments. However, there was this one time when I saw one answer to an askreddit post that was related to medicine(I'm medical) and was the top answer but based off of pseudoscience BS, I began to question the effectiveness of the hive mind. Sometimes people just get things wrong because they sound too appealing to deny. So for like about a couple years now I've developed an annoying habit of questioning things to the ire of many people. When you begin to see how often people get things wrong but are collectively considered right it puts a huge doubt on something like the reddit front page. Most of the time though, reddit does "right" well, but it's still just one microcosm of an entire world far too complex to extrapolate. I have another theory about morals but in the interest of keeping this comment short I'll abstain.

I hope you'll forgive me if this comment is too short.

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[+]hamstringstring points 9 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Right there are limits. In this case you'd have to verbally threaten someone for it to infringe on their rights. Love a sub where we can both be upvoted.

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The point that's going way over your head is that feelings are important but they are not the ends. Somebody could feel threatened because a black man moved in next door but that doesn't mean that man committed assault.

See, you don't have the right to feel safe because sometimes the source of that feeling of fear comes from your own bigotry and not something the other person actually did wrong.

At best, you have the right to pursue the feeling of safety. Just like the having the right to the pursuit of happiness.

And the problem with feminist advocacy in regard to these "fears" that people shouldn't have to fear is the deliberately lack of any attempt to test against reality. Thus the vague and highly description of the definition being way too subjective. A bigot's fear might be no less intense than somebody who has had a knife drawn on them but we need objective measures that dismiss the former and handle the latter.

Picture poster didn't do a good job of explaining that last part but, to be fair, when a huge social movement is clamoring for legally sanctioned misandry you need to shut that down before you begin tackling discrepancies in the nuances of assault.

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I feel that there can be a value in tidbits like this. The MHRM isn't just about fighting, legally, for the legal parity for men compared to women, it's also about exposing the hypocrisy in the cultures in which we live.

If we fix the laws so that a woman must have a valid, clear reason in which she divorces her husband, that doesn't mean that a particularly hypergamous woman won't still see men as walking ATMs. If we change the laws to make it so that the Draft is abolished, it still won't change the fact that men are seen as disposable, physically, mentally, and socially.

This isn't just about a legal war - it's a social war. Men are fighting to be seen as human beings. Part of that process is taking a spotlight to all of the ways that men are seen as tools and utilities, rather than as human beings. The idea is to expose the culture that denigrates us, and bring it into the spotlight where everyone with potential compassion for the rights and humanity of men and boys (ideally, people who are related to men and boys, but that isn't always the case...) can see and recognize that there is, in fact, a social bias against men that is deeply, culturally seeded.

Legal equality is only one goal of the MHRM. We're also striving for - justly - social equality, as well.

[–]WryGoat 10 points11 points12 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Duralon 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, hypocrisy isn't a human rights violation. It is rather tacky, though. I will agree that in this day and age, with all the problems that men face in our society, this rates pretty goddamn low on the importance ladder. But then again, there are posts like this (far more egregious ones) that truly represent the anti-male elements of our culture, and would find a much more passionate and heated response on our subreddit than this one.

Not to offend, but I think you're taking this a little over the edge. Had people been coming out on the subreddit and openly, frantically opposing it as 'ermahgerd, evidence of the matriarchy, y'all!' then yeah, I'd agree with you. Personally, I see it as a harmless example of cultural hypocrisy that exists in our world, and its posting here is meant more for an early-morning chuckle, rather than a call to action.

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Yeah, no one views men as human beings. We're so persecuted. Maybe it's because we, as men (because we dominate legislature and business) continuously attack women's rights (like access to birth control, taxing menstrual products, etc.) and they resent that for some reason. Think of birth control like gun rights, do you want people who don't like your guns with the ability to take them away? No? Didn't think so. Maybe women don't like their birth control taken away. Maybe they want access to a safe abortion in the horrible scenario where someone has an unplanned pregnancy (whether it be rape, incest or just the fact that they didn't have access to birth control). Men have it great. If you're not successful in life it's not because women keep you oppressed. It's because you're an asshole or you don't try hard enough or you've continuously voted for billionaires that lower your taxes, start wars to benefit their friends in the corporate military industry, and fight wage increases. So maybe before you blame women and minorities (who are grossly underrepresented in legislature) for your woes, maybe look inward and see how you caused your own suffering. Be a fucking man and own your mistakes instead of playing a whiny snowflake card about how hard your life is. Nobody fucking cares because you're an asshole and you did it to yourself, because it wasn't women.

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As a male. I hate this sub with a passion.

Someone it's women's fault that men have higher suicide rate. It's women who drove men to combat and made us work ourselves into an early grave.

Actually it was men, us, who set these standards for other men. Sooo how about we leave women alone and fix our self imposed bull shit?! Nope need to hate women.

[–]LukaCola 6 points7 points8 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Seriously, feminism tries to fight against imposed injustices that predominantly negatively affect women. What do MRAs do besides fight feminists?

It was not because women collectively decided to not do the grunt-work, they were literally barred from it, from higher education, from pursuing the arts, from pursuing so much of what men already do with no restriction because of their sex. And this has only changed in very recent years and is still overwhelmingly lopsided towards men.

I sure as hell am not lacking in representation, that's for sure, so what is it MRAs are fighting for here? Feminists I know are fighting for better representation, for equal opportunity, for proper protection and treating their issues as serious. What are the men here trying to accomplish, really? Because any issue you can point out as being harmful towards men comes from this system of injustice that feminists are fighting.

It's not women who are sending men to jail at disproportionate rates, it's not women sending men to war. This shouldn't be an us vs them if people here actually cared about men's rights.

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[–]Skapes1230 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

Okay so my best example of how and why this sub was created is like the relationship between the two subs r/the_donald (feminism) and r/EnoughTrumpSpam (men's rights). After the r/the_donald took over for a while in exactly the same way r/sandersforpresident took over Reddit for months and months, r/EnoughTrumpSpam started getting more popular. Both with conflicting arguments but the same amount of annoyance to everyone in the entire community (America).

Point being. This sub is a direct effect of the feminist movement. The feminist movement is bullshit in America. Old school fems are appalled at what they are seeing from these women. Victimizing half of humanity when in reality they are only holding themselves back by placing nonexistent barriers around themselves. It's almost like a fucking disease. If those women did not directly attack men for doing not a god damn thing, this whole men's rights bullshit wouldn't be happening. Does this sub push it too far? Yeah, it does. But does everything have to be in exact accordance with the whole "men's right" sub to be relevant here? No, it shouldn't have to be if it is somewhat relevant or at least a little bit funny. Most of the people here are just tired of feminist women victimizing themselves for no fucking reason other than they feel entitled for something more than they already have. They have, everything a man does. Literally everything in this country if not more, that is available to men is available to women. If you are supporting feminism in other countries, that's fucking wonderful. I applaud you, you're doing exactly what should be done. If you're fighting for women's rights here, you're more than likely an entitled, self-centered, egotistical cunt who is so shoved up your own ass you think you shit doesn't stink. The others are brainwashed by this downright despicable movement going on against men who are apparently all the same.

I have no problems with women, I have problems with women who assume less of me for being born into my own gender. That's sexism and that's what this new regime of feminists are, sexists. Is this sub any better? Most of the time? Yes, it is better. There are some posts here that are eye rolling to the common man that just thinks "why are you victimizing yourself". Because that is what some of the posts here are, backwards new wave feminism. Don't buy into that it's okay for you to victimize yourselves, you look like a god damn little whiny bitch. Is it infuriating? Yes, it is. But bite your tongue. These new wave feminists feed off of the hatred of the point of view like vampires to blood. My advice is either, if they are easily perturbed, mess with them by playing mind games about new wave feminism or just ignore them. My advice, unless the person is really fun to enrage, just ignore them.

[–]upthatknowledge 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

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[–]upthatknowledge 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

My only point was that you are conflating the craziest feminists with all feminism. The number of feminists who are this crazy is SMALLLLLLLLL. And modern feminism isnt nearly as needed as it once was here in Ameeica, but it doesnt have NO purpose. I dont ignore the bad parts of feminism, i just know that they are ultimately a super tiny percentage.

Furthermore it sounds like you are saying "ignore the bad parts of this sub and focus only on the good" dude, this entire sub is tainted by the things youre choosing to ignore. The "occasional eye roll post" isnt ocasional, its a huge part of this sub. Youre basically saying "cherry pick the parts you like and ignore the rest"

And my response is no, absolutely not. The good AND the bad are a part of both feminism and this mens rights farce. The bad parts of feminism are miniscule overall while the vast majority of this sub is whiny bitching.

[–]Skapes1230 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I know two new wave feminists (because you seem to have some misguided information that all feminists are the same) that are not psychopaths. Literally two. They are fantastic human beings. Wonderful people. I cannot count the rest of these new wave feminists I've met and conversed with on all my fingers and toes. At least around 25-30. Besides those two, every single new wave feminist I have met have been dogmatic, narcissistic cunts. Now maybe I have some feigned sense of reality because of very bad circumstances but I have met two people that were not awful people out of 25-30, however, I do not agree with any new feminist ideals besides one. The vast majority of these claims these women are making are false. The numbers they are spitting out are cooked.

Look at the national census for example and you will see that the national average pay for women is lower than mens. That includes all working and unemployed people, not just employed. Women take maternity leave, which I agree should be paid leave at least twice in this country but is not mandatory which is sad. Women are more likely to be homemakers. Lower paying jobs, etc. All of these arguments stem from that census! If you honestly think that women actually make less than men, why wouldn't companies higher exclusively women? That argument is the biggest crock of shit in feminist history.

All I'm saying is that it is rare to find a good person in this new wave feminism. In a day and age where the taboo is no longer taboo, new wave feminism (again I'm saying NEW WAVE!) has one valid argument and that is it.

I couldn't care less about this sub. I'm on it because it was on r/all and for some reason I look at the comments on everything. As far as men's rights go, men's rights have always been there. This sub should really be "the truth about feminism". And besides, do you not know that the vast majority of stuff that is posted to Reddit is shit? So of course most of the stuff on this sub is shit. Shit is on every major sub out there! You're just villainizing this sub because it supports your cause. Who is the strawman now ;)

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It certainly is a strawman. I mean if these people ever engaged in proper open conversation with feminists then "DID YOU JUST ASSUME MY GENDER" and such stupid phrases wouldn't be so popular online because they'd realise no one fucking says that other than anti-sjws and MRAs.

I think a big part of the creation of the strawman is that these people are so reactionary and stubborn that they're just overreacting to totally reasonable requests. These are the types of people who keep deliberately misgendering a trans person after they've been asked not to, and then when said trans person gets rightfully upset about it, these people go home and write about how some "triggered feminazi special snowflake went crazy at me today after I told her I didn't care if she used masculine pronouns because I don't play by those sjw's rules!" So "please stop calling me a boy/girl and invalidating my identity, I've already asked you enough times!" becomes "DID YOU ASSUME MY GENDER? I'M TRIGGERED!!!" so the MRAs can jerk about how irrational the "sjws" are. And thus, we have this situation where people who oppose modern feminism don't even know what it entails.

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Genuinely curious, why do you guys lend so much credence to what people say on Facebook?

Let's put it in this example; If you saw a post such as this, and it's not been disagreed with, or, in fact, it's been liked and commended overwhelmingly, you can get the sense that the content of the post is socially acceptable.

For many people, the original post is completely innocuous and harmless. The post below that, however, is likely to be seen as hateful and bigoted, due to how our society thinks of male sexuality. (For clarification, society tends to believe that female sexuality is a gift that should be cherished and accepted no matter the circumstance. Male sexuality, on the other hand, is seen as predatory and harmful to woman, no matter the circumstance.)

To take an extreme example, imagine if the posts had been reversed, and the man's post was chronologically placed first. The reaction of a feminist subreddit might be anger, as well as being seen as evidence of the cultural 'oppression' of women.

Am I saying that men are oppressed? Of course not. When a person can type something as tacky as this - something that just casually demeans an entire gender - unapologetically, it's a bit of an indication on what that person thinks of that gender, generally. Am I saying that this woman is a violent, frenzied, man-hating bitch? Again, of course not. But the MHRM is fighting for not only the legal, but social parity between men and women (and most of us would prefer men be elevated to this position, rather than have women be brought down from theirs.) This kind of attitude, which can be seen as primarily anti-man to some (personally, I think I've devoted far too many words for far too harmless an example) is precisely what we're trying to stand against in the MHRM. Once the life of a man is legally and socially as valuable as a woman's life, then we'll be content.

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I disagree. Triggered is a term for an extreme negative reaction to something. Just saying "I don't like that" isn't being triggered. If you're insulted and then feel the need to insult someone back as "payback" then your triggered.

The way it's used now a days is synonymous with butt hurt. But the way it was ORIGINALLY meant to be used was as a reaction to "generally" PTSD events. Something would trigger memories or feelings.

So it turned into farce because people would use its original meaning to describe feeling sad when someone made a fat joke because it "triggered PTSD feelings of them being bullied" which is just an incredible stretch of the meanings of the words "trigger" and "PTSD"

So now the word has no true meaning. It's been formed and stretched and teased to the point of ineffectuality.

[–]NonsensicalOrange 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The way it's used now a days is synonymous with butt hurt.

It's been formed and stretched and teased to the point of ineffectuality.

Which is the problem, everybody is saying it in the most irrelevant and stupid ways possible, if anybody they don't like argues something they respond with "hah, this guy's so triggered". It's incredibly immature.

Even when it makes sense, it's pretty much just people saying, "Omg, I got a reaction out of this guy, what a retard, only retards get upset."

Let's try this with context: Person says "men this and that". Man disagrees, says "women this and that". Person you are defending says, "haha, that man, so triggered". What? He responded, without a hint of personal emotion, that was it. It's such an irrelevant insult that I'm actually laughing, people upvoted her.

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Funny how this makes you sound like a child too.

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[–]PavementBlues3 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Tell that to the guy on the street last Friday who screamed "YOU'RE A MAN" at me over and over again as I walked past, or the countless strangers every day who give me looks of open disgust as I simply try to live my life, or my supervisor who told me that after five years helping to build the company, I needed to leave because the office wouldn't accept my transition.

Tell that to the FBI, which reports that trans women experience dramatically higher rates of rape, assault, and murder than any other demographic in the United States, accounting for the majority of all hate crimes in the country despite representing a tiny minority of the affected population. Tell that to all of us who have had to leave our homes and move to a different city or state because we weren't safe transitioning where we lived.

Tell that to those of us who are stigmatized for seeking clinically recommended medical care, and who are used as political bogeymen by the fundamentalist right in order to stir up their base and deny us access to that care, despite it being the only treatment shown to be effective in 50 years of research on gender dysphoria.

Transphobia exists.

[–]bat_mayn2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]PavementBlues6 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

As for all the other nonsense - trans tend to lead extremely degenerate, unhealthy, unsafe lives. Also, after "treatment" their suicide rates increase.

Cite your sources.

I actually know your source, though, as both claims are common misinterpretations of a 2011 Swedish study that found that those who transitioned had greater rates of suicide and criminality.

To address the issue of suicide first, the very study itself argues that this is likely due to the social alienation and rejection caused by societal stigma and discrimination (a claim which has been supported by numerous other research teams, as well as the study in question when it found that this pattern of mortality was only evident between 1973 and 1988, and that this difference was not seen in the period between 1989 and 2003), and also points out that similar patterns of mortality are seen in bipolar patients being treated with mood stabilizers and schizophrenics being treated with antipsychotics, but that this obviously doesn't imply that such treatments are ineffective.

The study's author has repeatedly spoken out against this misinterpretation, which rejects aspects of her research and the research of others to support a false narrative that isn't supported by evidence.

Your argument about degenerate, unhealthy, unsafe lives also likely comes from the same study, which looked at rates of criminal conviction for trans people, finding that "regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls, but not compared to males. This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime. By contrast, female-to-males had higher crime rates than female controls but did not differ from male controls. This indicates a shift to a male pattern regarding criminality and that sex reassignment is coupled to increased crime rate in female-to-males. The same was true regarding violent crime."

To quote the study's author, however:

What we were saying was that for the 1973 to 1988 cohort group and the cisgender male group, both experienced similar rates of convictions. As I said, this pattern is not observed in the 1989 to 2003 cohort group.

The difference we observed between the 1989 to 2003 cohort and the control group is that the trans cohort group accessed more mental health care, which is appropriate given the level of ongoing discrimination the group faces. What the data tells us is that things are getting measurably better and the issues we found affecting the 1973 to 1988 cohort group likely reflects a time when trans health and psychological care was less effective and social stigma was far worse.

There's the actual data if you're interested in real information. Take it or leave it, but those are the facts.

Edit: Also, here are some studies showing the efficacy of hormone replacement therapy in improving the mental health and well-being of transgender patients.

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The majority of content is of substance and it's only when posts like this reach all that they get any traction.

Well we know /r/all is shit but the MRA movement is rife with this kind of stuff and anti-feminism as opposed to, well, working with them to reduce injustices. Lots of us vs them, and MRAs would often be better off aligning with feminists if their concerns are of civil rights and social injustices.

Many of your links exhibit that as well. The discussion about political inequality in the UK is wildly misleading. It's like saying "Why isn't there an organization to support White people in the US? Even the President is Black, but affirmative action helps minorities! How is that equal?"

It's so hilariously off-base and needlessly antagonistic that you can only conclude that the person is pretty misguided and self-centered when it comes to civil rights issues.

[–]contractor808 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

You aren't informed on the history of feminist activism and political lobbying. The largest feminist organization, the National Organization for Women, alongside the League of Women Voters, lobbied against shared parenting and alimony reform just last year. The even went as far as to call father's rights groups an "abuser's lobby." Among the provision in the bill were a rebuttable presumption of shared custody, standardized formulas as starting points in determining support awards, and the abolition of permanent alimony. This obstruction to shared parenting goes back to the 1990s, which is to say they have opposed shared parenting for over two decades. This is only one of many examples of what feminist groups do in the name of "equality." It is not in the interest of mra's to align with feminist interests because they are counter to improving the legal rights of men.

The discussion on political inequality is not misleading. Men are the vast majority of homeless, suicides, and incarcerated. Why aren't there government offices dedicated to those issues and how they concern men? Why are there so few government services for male victims of DV even though they are near half of all victims? Furthermore, why would the UK government seek to ratify the Istanbul Convention on domestic violence, even though it ignores male victims completely and attack those who point it out (like MP Davies). It seems as though you're under the impression that men have the run of the mill in Western society, when there are many ways in which they are disadvantaged.

Furthermore, having followed the exploits of men's rights activists in the UK, it incredibly clear that there is outright antagonism toward discussing men's issues in the government. This includes MPs deriding the thought of discussing men's issues on International Men's Day, political smears on MPs who attend the International Conference on Men's Issues, and countless media attacks on the broader movement by the state-run BBC. The UK government doesn't even recognize male and female rapists under the same law, and in fact only men can be legally classified as a rapist.

[–]LukaCola 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Well see this is what I kind of mean by self-serving, you sure have found a lot of ways to paint yourself as the victim while ignoring the benefits men have in response to this system. And it's not like this is because of feminism that these issues exist, no, it's due to systemic inequalities largely perpetrated by a patriarchical society. Or do you think it's women incarcerating men at a greater rate than others?

Obviously nothing is perfect but you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and you seem callous towards the inequality that exists that predominantly harms women. You complain about men can only be legally classified as a rapist, but this is a decision by a predominantly male government and you seem to have no comments on the fact that men are predominantly the perpetrators of rape crimes.

So on one hand you have complaints regarding suicide which isn't even a gendered issue, like seriously, men do choose more "effective" suicide methods but suicide and mental health that drives people to that is an issue that faces both genders equally and isn't perpetrated by one over the other. But on the other hand you complain about rape and how women aren't being brought to charge on rape enough, whereas if men raped as much as women did we'd see a massive improvement and your focus should, if your concern is about rape victims, be on reducing this culture that allows for men to rape or sexually assault women.

[–]contractor808 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Well see this is what I kind of mean by self-serving, you sure have found a lot of ways to paint yourself as the victim while ignoring the benefits men have in response to this system. And it's not like this is because of feminism that these issues exist, no, it's due to systemic inequalities largely perpetrated by a patriarchical society. Or do you think it's women incarcerating men at a greater rate than others?

It's absurd to state that the damage caused by feminists explicitly lobbying against reform is not because of feminism. Or was it the patriarchy that forced the members of NOW to lobby in Florida or previously write declarations opposing shared parenting? Second, your falling into a very common trope of people who criticize men's issues. The mrm does not value victimhood in the same way other movements do. It is not a claim to power or special treatment in the way that the progressive stack ranks demographics. It's a call to action to those who value treating people equally, particularly under the law. It is the declaration that there is a problem to solve, not that other problems are lesser. And it's not a declaration that other problems don't deserve attention, as you seem to do by consistently talking about how "women have it worse" and I'm not paying them enough attention. I find it ironic that you talk about equality, but can't stand the thought of men being victims of discrimination.

And I don't think women are incarcerating men at greater rates, and if they were it wouldn't matter as the legislation is what leads disproportionate incarceration. For example domestic violence and child support policies primarily target men, leading to male victims and impoverished men to being incarcerated.

Obviously nothing is perfect but you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and you seem callous towards the inequality that exists that predominantly harms women.

Not mentioning women in a discussion on the topics in this sub means I'm callous? There wasn't a reason to given the specific topics. I also didn't mention trans people, asians, or muslims. Am I callous to them as well now? And, innumerate the list of ways women are being treated unfairly. I expect a large number will be false, and/or subjective claims based on patriarchy theory.

You complain about men can only be legally classified as a rapist, but this is a decision by a predominantly male government and you seem to have no comments on the fact that men are predominantly the perpetrators of rape crimes.

Men are only the predominant perpetrators if you go by the flawed classifications of the CDC. They classified male victims of rape only if they were penetrated. The 12-month estimates for men and women when comparing rape and "made to penetrate" were both over 1 million reports, with the totals only about 200k apart.

Men are the majority of suicides worldwide, with few exceptions. This includes countries with various gun control regimes, religious majorities, and cultural norms. Why do you find it inappropriate to question why this trend would persist globally? And locally, why are men more likely to commit suicide later in life, particularly after divorce? Could it be that the laws are unfair? That losing contact with one's children could make someone suicidal? Would a man who makes less that 10k a year (the majority of child support debtors) who has no way to pay his debts, find suicide an attractive alternative to a cycle of imprisonment? Suicide does affect both genders, but the paths to suicide can differ greatly. It is worth examining how these paths differ and in what ways legislation has an impact.

[–]LukaCola 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]contractor808 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I dismiss them because I've heard them all. If you'd like to provide counter examples then I'd like to see them. 90% of the time people cite cultural factors that can't be proven/disproven or the fictional wage gap. Rarely people discuss abortion rights or rape kit backlogs, the latter of which is due in part to defendants confirming sex occurred or dropped cases.

So please do continue to ignore the rest of my statements if that means you're focusing your attention on writing a list of ways women are legally disadvantaged or provable ways in which women are socially disadvantaged. You'll get bonus points if you can do so without mentioning "toxic masculinity" or the nonexistent patriarchy "backfiring" on men.

Lastly there's only an us vs them situation because the "them" stand in opposition to men's issues getting attention. I just explained how NOW opposes shared parenting. If feminism were for equality then the men's issues movement wouldn't exist in the first place out of necessity. This has been the situation since at least the 1800s when the Tender Years Doctrine of default maternal custody was enacted by the feminist Caroline Norton in the Custody of Children Act. The "tender years" were eventually amended up to age 16.

[–]LukaCola0 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If feminism were for equality then the men's issues movement wouldn't exist in the first place out of necessity.

This is like saying White nationalists, Neo-Nazis, or other racial supremacists wouldn't exist if it weren't out of necessity. It's not a foregone conclusion, and it certainly wouldn't be the first time a group has perceived social change as an attack on their identity. Men are not threatened, nor is their way of life as a group.

If feminism were for equality then the men's issues movement wouldn't exist in the first place out of necessity.

It is for equality, despite your cherry picked sentiments and complaints which only give your very biased perspective.

people cite cultural factors that can't be proven/disproven

Is this what you meant by subjective? Are we gonna have some bad social science on top of it? We can demonstrate causative factors, but I suppose that's not enough?

the fictional wage gap

The wage gap absolutely exists. Women on average make less than men, this comes down to a variety of reasons, yes, women are paid very close to the same for the same work. That's no longer the issue. That's not what is described by the wage gap, and it's a straw argument MRAs love to turn to despite fundamentally misunderstanding it in the first place.

I dismiss them because I've heard them all.

Yeah, you're closed minded, I get it.

If you'd like to provide counter examples then I'd like to see them.

Representation in almost all leadership roles is a serious issue, sexual objectification is another, there's more of course but I'm not going to run a gambit.

Your focus on very particular and, comparatively, insignificant issues is extremely telling of your self-serving attitude. You are arguing for your sake because you are not an empathetic person. And why should people be empathetic to your issues if you can't do the same for their's?

Of course, there are still systemic issues there worth discussing. But this insistence that your little bush fire is more important than the apartment burning down across the street is incredibly off-putting.

the nonexistent patriarchy

The patriarchy is mostly unquestionable. You have to be seriously anti-intellectual to think it doesn't exist, or deluded. Men have and continue to hold the dominant political clout in almost every walk of life on the planet. If that's not patriarchy, I don't know what is. And yes, this dynamic can hurt men as well, gender normative roles and behaviors don't just negatively impact women but they do predominantly impact women.

[–]contractor8081 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It is for equality, despite your cherry picked sentiments and complaints which only give your very biased perspective.

How many examples do you need? What about the treatment of Warren Farrel when he was ejected from NOW for talking about men's issues? The treatment of Christina Hoff Summers by feminists after speaking about the anti-male excesses of the movement? The similar treatment of Camille Paglia? How about Erin Pizzey, who founded the domestic violence shelter movement, being driven out of the UK by feminists for advocating a gender-neutral approach? Or perhaps she was driven out for reporting a feminist group's plan to bomb a department store? What about women's suffrage with no obligation to the state equal to men? (And by the way, various states allowed women the vote 20-40 years prior, and men only had the vote mere decades prior to women) What about the Duluth Model of domestic violence that only blames men? Or the advocacy of gender-specific legislation like the Violence Against Women Act/Istanbul Convention? Does promoting, indeed awarding with the NOW Woman of Courage Award, known rape hoaxers like Mattress Girl improve gender equality? Does protesting and attempting to shut down screenings of a men's issues documentary promote equality? Did advocating for white female voting rights ahead of black male voting rights? When Mary Koss minimized the male victims of female rapists in CDC stats and public statements, was she promoting equality? Why did feminist groups enact policy to label catcalling a "hate crime" in the UK, but neglect to include men in their definition and advocacy? Why do they allow male accused to be named publicly, but hide the name of accusers? Why do they advocate for the erosion of due process in colleges? Why haven't feminist groups stood alongside the National Coalition for Men in their lawsuit to desegregate or end the Selective Service? Why have they allowed segregation to persist for a century, even after men died in Vietnam? Why is there a HeForShe and no SheForHe? Why isn't there a push to end male genital cutting that matches the fervor around female genital cutting?

Why must everything be men's fault? The patriarchy theory boils down men are the sources of women's problems except for when men are the source of men's problems. What a sad idea that a) men are callous, self-serving brutes who denigrate women and b) that women are helpless dolts who can't fend for themselves.

[–]LukaCola0 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

How many examples do you need?

Is this just what you do? Run a gish gallop past people and that's your method of arguing? It's also completely cherry picked and not an honest method of discourse. I get it, you probably keep a list somewhere, but why do you think running examples past people is an effective method of making your point?

Furthermore, it completely misses the point. On top of that, you ignored counter-examples I gave and limited so that we could actually talk about something of substance. I'm not about to discuss the whole breadth of injustices various sexes face, I'm not an idiot, but you asked for a counter example and I gave you one. If you don't want them, don't ask for them.

Why must everything be men's fault? The patriarchy theory boils down men are the sources of women's problems except for when men are the source of men's problems. What a sad idea that a) men are callous, self-serving brutes who denigrate women and b) that women are helpless dolts who can't fend for themselves.

Well, only if you don't understand social constructs to begin with... See, this is kind of the issue, you don't understand the fundamentals of these conflicts so of course you cannot be reasonably expected to have a well informed opinion on the subject and is a huge problem with self-serving social justice activists in many online communities. They don't begin to understand the modalities of discrimination and how they work, so they draw conclusions that absolutely do not reflect the reality. Because you are not showing an understanding of "patriarchy theory" as you call it, that the world is patriarchal is not questioned. But you reject it based on false pretenses, essentially, you're arguing against a straw man.

Understanding how these systems exist and persist can go a long way towards explaining various forms of systemic discrimination.

It is not that men are callous and mean or that women are incapable of whatever, it is that the belief was that women were incapable or needed to marry or some other variation and this was shared and perpetuated by both men and women. This system is of course self-reinforcing, the nail that sticks out gets the hammer after all.

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[+]The_Fetaljuice points 9 years ago [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link

Thank god I can filter you neckbeards out of /r/all

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Dated a girl, wore makeup but didn't look made up. Went to pick her up for second date and some troll answers the door. I ask very politely if my date is there, well it was her pre makeup. She Lost her shit. Called me all kind of names and slammed the door. Wasn't until years later that I realized that I was lucky not to wake up to that discovery.

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BURN!!!

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I didn't ask if they have equal weight. I asked if they both have to register. And they both do not, only men. The Selective Service is unequal discrimination in employment, financial aid, and serves as a registry for the draft. Young men died in Vietnam who registered and nothing was done to fix this problem.

The full list of benefits and penalties regarding Selective Service can be found on the SSS website. The list is summarized:

A young man who fails to register with Selective Service may be ineligible for opportunities that may be important to his future. He must register to be eligible for federal student financial aid, state-funded student financial aid in many states, most federal employment, some state employment, security clearance for contractors, job training under the Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act (formerly known as the Workforce Investment Act), and U.S. citizenship for immigrant men.

[–]upthatknowledge1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]upthatknowledge1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Your framing is what is despicable and cowardly. You frame these issues as if they are all that matters, as if they are the only issues you are willing to fight for. They are not framed as egalitarian where men need help AND women need help. They are framed as if men are some subjugated class and women subjugate then. You approach these issues with vacuum thought and quite frankly it comes across as an attempt to distract away from more important issues that you yourself dislike.

There are far worse things in the world that what youve described, but you frame it as if men are living hellish lives. I can agree with some of the issues youve raised, but I cant agree with the vacuum thought you apply. You show no pride about this. You show only a desire to overblow these issues for sympathy, distract from more important issues by overplaying the victim card, and getting overly emotional

[–]contractor8081 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Your framing is what is despicable and cowardly. You frame these issues as if they are all that matters, as if they are the only issues you are willing to fight for. They are not framed as egalitarian where men need help AND women need help.

This is the men's rights subreddit and we are talking about men's rights. I'm not going to derail the conversation to women's issues every moment so people feel safe or so someone doesn't insult me. Stop trying to make every discussion about women. There are a myriad of women's groups and women's support systems. This movement seeks to have the same support for men who need it. The first step to doing so is having a place where men can talk about those issues without people coming in a denigrating their struggles.

They are framed as if men are some subjugated class and women subjugate then.

Nowhere did I say men were subjugated by women. I listed distinct legal inequalities facing men, not a woman or women.

You approach these issues with vacuum thought and quite frankly it comes across as an attempt to distract away from more important issues that you yourself dislike.

What are the more important issues? Why do you get to decide what's more important? Who are you to come into a group and dictate what is and isn't okay to discuss?

There are far worse things in the world that what youve described, but you frame it as if men are living hellish lives.

There are men who live hellish lives. And I just described some of them. Just because another was bombed by ISIS doesn't mean that man can't get help too or have their problems considered. By that same logic, an honor-based acid attack in Pakistan on a child bride means we can't discuss abortion policy in the US. There are enough people and resources that we can all decide where our attention should be focused.

I can agree with some of the issues youve raised, but I cant agree with the vacuum thought you apply.

That's good, and I think you'd agree more if you learned more about men's issues. There is a documentary coming out by a feminist filmmaker this year. It is highly anticipated by the people in the men's rights movement and lauded by audiences at advance screenings. I recommend you watch it when it releases.

You show no pride about this.

Pride about what? I don't get your meaning. I'm very proud of the people who have stood up for men and boys despite the intense public attacks on their character. I'm very proud of the men who have the courage to speak about being victims of domestic and sexual abuse. And I'm proud of the many anonymous people who spread awareness on these issues or donate to worthy causes that help men who need aid. I'm not sure what pride I lack.

You show only a desire to overblow these issues for sympathy, distract from more important issues by overplaying the victim card, and getting overly emotional

What issues that I discussed are overblown? And I think I've done very well considering you have called me a joke, a moron, a dipshit, cringy, a massive bitch, a gigantic pussy, disgraceful, a boy, desperate, despicable, and cowardly. I haven't insulted you at all.

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I never understood why people blur names. If someone is dumb enough to make these comments it should be public.

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Men also want to look desirable and they do put in a lot of thought and effort, women don't revolve exclusively around their looks, both men and women try to use their looks (among other things) to attract a partner.

Sure BOTH sides do their part to look desirable... But there's a HUGE difference between putting a little effort into your appearance, and theatrical level special effects.

Make-up is temporary, men will see their dates without it, beards are much more long-term... Would you feel differently if he said women should shave their legs before men should consider dating them?

So men should "temporarily" waste their time & effort on the wizard, only to find out it's an old man behind a curtain?

No. Shaving legs is on par with basic grooming among people dating in modern society. Beards are trendy AND socially acceptable. Hairy legs on women is fine if that's their choice, but almost all men would be turned off by that; just like a unibrow, mustache, hairy armpits, unwashed oily hair, brown teeth, etc.

The point was that visual prerequisites can go both ways, insisting someone else change their features so you can judge them without it can be done by both genders. People can date who they want, though I don't think they should advocate this nonsense to others. I don't see why you think one is fine and the other is much worse.

It's simple.

Like I said, women rely on their looks. I'll agree that men do too... to an extent. The difference is that women do everything in their power to construct this false avatar with the intent to deceive men. When I say "false avatar", I'm talking about the extensive makeup, hair extensions, spanx, and bras that make old tits appear new again.

Men don't do any of that. If either sex wants to enhance themselves or their appearance, they can workout, diet, dress or groom themselves differently. Those are all real changes. But when you start using Hollywood special effects to disguise yourself, then you're simply being disingenuous & deceitful.

[–]Dylothor2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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Equality in a nutshell [Facebook bullshit]

Comments

It just makes you look like an immature, ignorant twat yourself.

Title	Equality in a nutshell [Facebook bullshit]
Author	cryobabe
Upvotes	16816
Comments	686
Date	January 10, 2017 11:08 AM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/5n4gn8/equality_in_a_nutshell_facebook_bullshit/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/equality-in-a-nutshell-facebook-bullshit.1072336 https://theredarchive.com/post/1072336