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[–]rainyweathergirl28 points29 points30 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Red pill is about understanding truths, whether they are politically correct or not. You can be red pill and not follow any of the advice, just understand where that will lead you and don't lie to yourself.
[–]JackGoldsteinWrites34 points35 points36 points 9 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
You sound close minded and set in your ways, both as it regards RP and men in general.
I don't think you really tried, at all. RP is a state of mind, not a state of affairs. You are using career and family obligations to justify not trying.
I am not stunning in looks or grace, but certainly not ugly
With all of your constraints, you've basically priced yourself out of the market.
Consider:
common values are more important than common faith
having a job does not mean not being RPW and having a beta husband
if you aren't a super model, you already have to work a little harder to get attention
On a personal note, I grew up poor and I have 2 autistic brothers that need extreme care. I plated and then passed up a lot of 8s and 9s because I knew, long term, they would not be able to support me or help me as these women tend to be a little more self-centered and would find my family obligations annoying. I picked up a girl from a different faith with strong values and who loves helping disabled and unfortunate people. As far as looks go, she is not even close to my top 10. So your situation is not alien to me.
[–]dottywine8 points9 points10 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
You can still be RPW. I don't think there is a set number of rules to follow... RPW doesn't mean hunting for a husband in order to become a house wife.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Very true. It's a strong held belief here that traditional families and roles are the only accepted format here, but it isn't.
[–]vajeni1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Sadie Dunham is my niece's name.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Ha! What a coincidence! This is merely a pen name, not my actual name.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link
You refer to your disabled sibling and father to take care of. Not sure if this is viable but can't you get a live-in housemaid to take care of them at least part-time?
Why can't you work and be married at the same time? You might have a job as a military, but you can and must separate work and your personal life. Your masculine personality and habits are on you and you alone, only you can change them if you want with dedication.
You can find a great captain who is a mix of beta and alpha, but RPW is about changing yourself and not settling down.
I think you haven't tried hard enough. There is a lot you can work on to be more feminine and suiting for a long term partnership while keeping your job and caring for your family. You can take on as much as you're willing to and in no way are you forced to be a SAHW/M to be a RPW.
A RPW is not an illusion, it's a constant battle with self-improvement.
On the other hand, RPW is not for everyone, and some people will do better with some parts of it. Use this as a tool to become a better person, not to directly attract a man, and you will unknowingly become more attractive. Things will fall into place.
It's all up to you to embrace your nature and do what you can with what you have.
I'm sure you will succeed in whatever you wish to achieve :)
[–]LifeHasLag points points points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
a live-in housemaid to take care of them at least part-time?
Not an option as both my father and sibling are antisocial, and have communicated to me that I am expected to look after them.
I don't know what trying harder looks like. I lift weights for strength and for some vanity, it has given me a better physique and I am nowhere near overweight. My bodyfat % has remained 17-19% for as long as I've tracked it these past two years. My face is scarred and always has some degree of acne. I tried multiple dermatologists and medications for my acne for years, it can only be managed with daily care. I can wear makeup, but on the average day it is not practical and I often feel strange wearing anything more than eye makeup. I can't change my deep, rough voice, some people have said it is unappealing.
I've gotten better with social grace by meeting many new friends and coworkers. I am still an introvert exhausted by social activity, there is a point I can't bring myself to be more approachable and open. I love caring for others and finding ways to support them by bringing in homemade snacks and gifts. I've attracted betas, but never catch the eye of the men I want.
[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
If you live in the US there are service available for the disabled you can try to arrange for your dad and sibling.
my father and sibling are antisocial, and have communicated to me that I am expected to look after them.
This is not your problem. You have a life, they need to respect that. You being there for them and supporting them does not mean you should be martyring yourself. It's not up to them the kind of help they get, they can't make you do it. You're allowing them to treat you this way.
I agree, but I feel it's something I can take on and therefore should. At some point, before this situation developed, I thought I would drop everything for a great man. But now I doubt I could give up this far even if my family weren't in the equation, I think I would feel uprooted and unsatisfied with the amount of effort I've just committed.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Then the situation is where you want to be, it would seem. Perhaps you may still find a man despite it. But RP is about recognizing the truth no matter how harsh. Please realize you are at this point in life because you choose to be.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Alright about all that. Now what about those beta men? What qualifies them as beta for you? What about the men you want?
I read on here earlier this week that you had to find the best men you could find within your range of SMV. Maybe you're disqualifying men too easily as beta. Then again you can't change what you're attracted to but maybe some of those beta men are a mix of beta and alpha traits and haven't got the chance to show their alpha side because they feel they don't have your respect.
So many men have been forced into a position of Beta and are only waiting for the woman with the right mindset to unleash their awesome manliness.
Not saying you should settle for any guy out there but maybe you should review what standards you use for vetting (not exactly lower them but evaluate if you're trying to hit way too above your range and even if some of the standards you're using to vet aren't quite on point).
Please don't take this the wrong way, but I feel you deserve the very best just as every man and woman out there. You're full of potential, don't let the hamster ruin it all.
[–]LifeHasLag0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Found it! If you don't feel comfortable flirting, how can you
1) Captivate a man 2) Show your interest so he continues to pursue you 3) Let yourself be courted?
It seems the fact you're so "prude" will lead to men thinking you are not interested or frigid.
I think it's fine if you want to wait after marriage to have sex and find it honorable but the fact you don't let yourself be pursued is probably the biggest issue.
Relax. Dating is fun. Don't do anything you will regret but don't be afraid to let yourself blush a little. This is what you have to work on.
Also big major advice to make it clear: flirting is not bad at all. Also, you shouldn't have to tell anyone you're a virgin or not in the first couple dates. Flirting is what people do to show interest and it has nothing to directly do with having sex or being a virgin. Plus, most men probably wouldn't care if you weren't a virgin. Unless you had went merry go round on the town, that is.
Oh god, I am a prude
I want to ask "How do you flirt?" but it seems so vague. I'm unsure about showing interest first and of course, fear of rejection...
[–]Jayms0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I agree, this could be the issue. You stated that the people you were interested in "made it clearly platonic" but maybe you both just weren't reading the right signals. Learning to flirt and show interest in a feminine way is a necessary skill to attract a mate. I'm sure there are some here who can give better advice than me and there have probably been books written on it. That's where I'd start looking and learning about flirting.
[–]McLuhanSaidItFirst0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link
Ok, here's my assessment. It's not 'trying harder' that will get you the man you want, you've been doing your best, I'm sure. It sounds to me like you have done your best; what you could think to do so far. You've not gotten the results you want, and now are rationalising giving up. So be patient and try more and different ways to add value to yourself. I say that because a good prospective partner, generally speaking, will be snapped up eventually. You are in no way hopeless. There is plenty of reason to believe you can find someone if you adjust your approach to do more of what works.
It may sound a little harsh for the previous guy's post to say you're not trying hard enough. Maybe another way to put that is to say that there are things that you haven't tried yet, or simply that you need to expand your repertoire.
For example: your voice. That's a rationalization. Changing your voice is totally possible. A voice coach can help you more than you dream, if you do the work. There are good videos on youtube that you can use to learn a more pleasing voice if you don't want to pay a coach. I knew a woman who did this as part of a makeover and the effect was stunning. Couldn't believe my ears.
My acne responded really well to the the ketogenic diet: /r/keto
both my father and sibling are antisocial, and have communicated to me that I am expected to look after them
That's what they want. Who says they must get what they want, and you DON'T get to have what you want? Where did that rule come from? That's a rationalization.
I've been realizing that the idea of a woman willing to put her career aside and sacrificing a large part of her independence is not for me personally.
So your career means more to you than marriage/family of your own? I don't hear it in your statements. If you were really happy to be focused on your career to the exclusion of a relationship, you wouldn't have written this post - you'd be happily focusing on your career, not giving men a second thought. That's a rationalization.
Do you see how the next two comments contradict each other?
sacrificing a large part of her independence is not for me ... a handicapped sibling and a disabled father to care for now. No one else will care for them, the obligation has fallen on me
sacrificing a large part of her independence is not for me ...
a handicapped sibling and a disabled father to care for now. No one else will care for them, the obligation has fallen on me
Sacrificing yourself is not for you... that's why you are going to care for your father and brother instead of allowing someone else to care for them and having your own family? Wait, what? That's a rationalization.
Just getting married and having children while serving in the military isn't an issue for me.
I don't understand. You mean, it's not an issue, because you could do it easily, but you don't want to? Or it's not an issue because you think it's impossible? That's possibly a rationalization, I need clarification.
I began to date recently for the first time as a woman in her early 20s, and found nothing no men worthwhile in my accessible range.
Fixed that for you. Men are not 'things'. Could it be that you are objectifying men in revenge for them not choosing you? If there is no one in your accessible range, does that mean that you are not using a realistic relationship/sexual market value (RMV or SMV) for yourself ? If there is no one worthwhile for you, that may be a sign that you are setting your sights too high. Or that you are hoping that certain men will find you attractive, they don't, and so the ones who do find you attractive, you reject because you are angry at men for rejecting you, and it just feels good to think certain men are beneath you?
This totally sounds like hypergamy, or 'women marry up'. This is the dynamic that, in a woman with lower self understanding, leads to her getting herself knocked up by the Chad she fancies, then finding a chump to pay for the kid who, once his natural masculinity kicks in from having a woman, will eventually want to assert himself, but then he will realize he's been played for a fool when the woman is obviously not attracted to him. Another MGTOW is born. Or (speaking from personal experience not having an involved dad) in the worst case scenario, she's raising the kid with no father.
How many men have you tried dating? How many of the ones whom you turned down did you actually give a fair shake before writing them off? In John Molloy's Why Men Marry Some Women and Not Others, a significant percentage of women in his research project who had written off various men for one reason or another went back through their phone books and gave the guy another chance, and wound up marrying him.
Some men can and will grow into the role of Captain - there are a lot of men out there who don't even know it's possible to be a Captain because of the way our culture devalues masculinity. That doesn't mean they can't ever do it. You'll feel pretty disappointed if you ever meet one you turned down who later grew into a stud because he had a woman believe in him. I have to wonder how many of the 'things' you turned down just need the love of a feminine woman to bring out their masculine nature?
I love caring for others and finding ways to support them
Are you really as caring and supportive as you claim?
Try giving care and support to some of those 'things' at whom you turned up your nose and see what happens. Maybe you are only interested in caring for and supporting a man who gives you tingles? What if one of those men just needs someone to believe in him and support him, to turn him into a more sexy version of himself? If any woman here can learn about RPW and increase her SMV/RMV, and the same is true of men in /r/marriedredpill, wouldn't it stand to reason that any unattached man could similarly raise his SMV? Or would that ruin it if you had to help open some guy's mind to his better nature?
[–]LifeHasLag0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Much of that has already occurred to me.
That I am rationalizing is true. At the time of the post, I believed if dating would not get better for me, then I might as well justify turning my attention away from it. I also didn't know if I had the RP mindset right and asked for clarification; to me, I thought being a true RPW meant being willing to put everything on hold for a date.
I meant that it is possible for women to marry and have children while serving, so I'm not feeling hopeless because of the military, but because of my own standards. It feels as though my relationship value is too high to settle for what my SMV brings me.
I think it's odd many people are saying my family is taking advantage of me. I don't see taking care of them as a bad thing, and I do have boundaries in place. Some years ago, we practically hated each other. I reconciled when I could have cut off, since then we actively work things out together. There is no less strange way to put it, but my father is an example of a dominant, high quality man and I enjoy spending time with him more than dates. I've also started to bond with male mentors platonically. It feels... safe. Being with men less dominant than them is disappointing. I don't care much for a romantic relationship, having never known one. Yes, I am feeling unfulfilled without it, but in the big picture, I would be even less satisfied getting stuck with someone I did not like. I'm placing my father where my Captain would be, I think. I'm not after tingles, but that feeling of security and comfort I get when a high value man values me and can guide me. Someone I can admire and respect, whether that is their progress and effort, or what they've already achieved.
Fixed that for you. Men are not 'things'.
I agree. I was thinking of relationships as things, not people.
Is it wrong or selfish to set the bar equal to myself? If I didn't have a very good job and wasn't going to serve in the military or didn't have a college education, I would be alright with a man who wanted to achieve less than that. What I looked for was at least the desire to achieve something as great, and didn't find it in the ones who wanted to date me. I don't mind vices or flaws, just as long as they showed that they had potential. Here are some examples of the ones I attracted... I had a handsome guy ask me out right after his girlfriend dumped him, he only would contact me drunk-- no thank you. An athletic guy wanted to use my car and placed me in situations where I had to drive him alone. I gave him a few chances, then refused, and he did not contact me again. The best person thus far who approached me was a traveler and directly asked for a "friends with benefits" relationship. I politely turned him down. I do not like being taken advantage of and am vigilant against it. I didn't love any of these men, but I do love my family.
Some of the advice on here is as expected: lower standards. I see that as costing more contentment, and then what is the point? I won't be sacrificing my career by caring for my family and putting no effort into dating anymore. I would be sacrificing much of my happiness, stability, and time for a man I did not even respect, however. I agree it sounds like the mindset women have when they ride the Carousel. Except I'm adamantly against sex before marriage (for myself) and hold onto my virginity tightly. You can't worry about getting used if you never let it happen-- that mindset came to light with another comment on here, and may be why I've had some difficulty. I veer away from sexually active men.
It sounds like if I were a man, life would be easier.
[–]McLuhanSaidItFirst0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Hi!
I am impressed by your ability to admit you are rationalizing. That's a start. Let's see if you can follow through to the conclusion (acting counter to the rationalization and getting what you really want).
I'm adamantly against sex before marriage (for myself)
Yay! Very smart! That's a hindrance if you want to date players (you don't) and it is an enormous advantage if you're looking for a quality guy.
I'm not feeling hopeless because of the military, but because of my own standards. It feels as though my relationship value is too high to settle for what my SMV brings me.
This is a simple math problem. I think you are also engaging in 'all or nothing thinking'. Raise your SMV (everyone should maximize that anyway, even MGTOWs, because SMV means a more functional person) and/or help a guy with good character raise his SMV. Finding a guy with lower SMV (beta, not enough alpha to give you tingles, amirite) and helping him to come up is not a question of lowering your standards, it's a question of delayed gratification and common sense. Here's what I mean.
(Am I really the only one who has noticed this phenomenon? ) Why do RPW think a guy at some point in his married life can find the red pill and start to implement it? BECAUSE MEN ARE CAPABLE OF GETTING STRONGER WHEN THEY KNOW MORE AND KNOW BETTER.
But that doesn't answer the question: why do men have this epiphany at some point in their married life? And what makes them think that they can turn their marriage around and start to Captain their wife? Because they have begun an epigenetic event where alpha dominance genes are triggered.
If epigenetics is new to you, it's fascinating. It's the study of how genes are expressed in response to environmental signals. For example, Wim Hof, the Iceman, teaches people how to train their body to respond to cold. It's hardwired into all of us to develop an insane degree of cold hardiness. I have been following his technique and I'm warmer this winter and it also stimulates the immune system at the same time. I'm healthier this year, remarkably so. And it's just from careful regular, gradually longer and colder showers.
Speaking from personal experience, being around a woman who is feminine triggers a robust reaction in me where I want to, and do, act more masculine. In a committed realtionship with a feminine woman, it's a really strong response. According to my last girlfriend, it made her more tingly than she had ever been in her life. Constantly. So I think your stuck-ness may be partially a result of your never having had this experience and so you are unable to trust the process.
Here's the big point: In my opinion, it's not possible (almost) impossible to take an Alpha with no character and turn him into the mix of alpha/beta that makes a good husband. He doesn't care. HOWEVER, starting with a man with good character, it is absolutely possible to get him to raise his alpha- it's programmed into his DNA. It happens in wolves: the alpha wolf dies, a beta starts to manifest alpha traits. It happens in the military, if the training is good. Why is that ? Because a good man is capable of changing for the better; a selfish man never sees the need.
I think it's odd many people are saying my family is taking advantage of me. I don't see taking care of them as a bad thing, and I do have boundaries in place.
I didn't say any of those things. I said you were rationalizing, and as far as boundaries are concerned, you essentially said in your last post that you would like to be married but your brother and father said they come first, and you were inclined to go along with that.
There is no less strange way to put it, but my father is an example of a dominant, high quality man and I enjoy spending time with him more than dates.
Not strange at all, and a very hopeful sign, as far as it goes. Women who have a great relationship with a great dad make great wives. The relative amount of enjoyment out of that time is going to drop drastically when you meet a certain guy. Suddenly your dad will seem as awesome as he ever did, but this guy will seem off the charts in ways you never dreamed. Pay attention to that event! (see #1 below)
I've also started to bond with male mentors platonically. It feels... safe.
Until it isn't! You are playing with fire. Forget about that route, it is a recipe for disaster. Bond with female mentors, date men. Use your time wisely. It's the equivalent of putting yourself and the guy in the friendzone at the same time (wasting everyone's time), and it will inevitably backfire on you catastrophically. More quickly, if they are from work.
Being with men less dominant than them is disappointing.
I hate to have to say this, but if you are going to pull this off, you are going to have to make a rational decision to put your feelings in the back seat and put in some hard work on making the new paradigm pay off. Going out of your comfort zone to make something new happen is the only way to get something different and better.
I don't care much for a romantic relationship, having never known one.
I think that sentence speaks for itself, and it speaks volumes. I am suggesting that you take certain steps to enter a world you have no idea about. Speaking from personal experience, be really careful what you wish for, and be really specific and careful about going after it; the first any time you fall in love, if it breaks up, you'll feel like you're dying. So set yourself up for success and get it right the first time. One way to do that is to date a lot of people and make sure you keep it platonic, because you need way more data points than you have now to make a good decision. Takes time.
[–]LifeHasLag0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Good stuff, thank you!
Here's my dilemma: people generally exhaust me. My energy and time is a scarce resource. I see it as this... I can put that energy and time into networking for practical purposes (improving work and athletic performance, most often) or put it into, what seems to me, the huge uncertainty of dating men who don't show promise in less than five dates. Am I knocking them too soon? I don't think it takes long to tell.
Maybe it does take many dates with many new men, right now I don't know what I want to do besides focus on other priorities. I'm pretty discouraged and burnt out at present. Frankly I'm put off by the quality of men I've attracted. I take it as a reflection of myself; earlier when you said I may feel as though they're beneath me, it's more like, I think that if I get the attention of unattractive men with low potential, then that must mean I am as unattractive as they are. That must be the mindset for the CC, though. If I wasn't holding onto my virginity and didn't get attention from the men in my life already I would probably be going that route.
Well, I'll check in if I get back to dating with any success.
[–]McLuhanSaidItFirst0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Keep working on finding a way to make this approach work. Get advice , brainstorm with girlfriends or here, whatever. Hang in there and don't give up. You are on the right track and as a virgin, you are much higher value than you think.
At your age, in your position,
I can put that energy and time into networking for practical purposes (improving work and athletic performance, most often) or put it into, what seems to me, the huge uncertainty of dating men who don't show promise in less than five dates.
getting a handle on what it takes to succeed in dating men is much more practical and likely to pay off for you.
Getting attention from men you find unattractive? That's the story of every woman in the world. It does not mean you are unattractive. All you have to do is get more options, and work on raising your SMV/RMV, and expose yourself to more men.
Yes, dating is a huge uncertainty; that's why they call it fishing, not catching. Keep working at it as you are able, take time off when you must.
Above all, PERSIST and ADJUST your approach as necessary and STAY THE HELL OFF THE CC
[–]SouthernAthenaEndorsed Contributor1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
TRP in no way states that you must sacrifice a career to be a stay at home mom. It does say that many women find this option more fulfilling, but it's not a hard and fast rule. To be a RPW you don't have to follow a formula for how your life should go. TRP is about understanding the truth of male/female relationships, not providing a step by step list of how to live your life.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Set aside any notion of being an RP woman or not for a moment. After reading your post and your comments, I would say that your number one problem is that you feel a certain level of obligation to your family that is unhealthy. To be 100 percent clear on this, it's not that you feel like you should take care of these family members that is unhealthy but the idea that you have to do it personally because that would be their preference.
You seem to have very weak boundaries in that particular area, and perhaps you are compensating with creating artificial/inflated boundaries with your 1000-point checklist about what a man would have to be for you. This checklist is a very, very common type of defensive mechanism women use to keep you from overextending yourself due to having so much time and resources tied up as a result of the weak boundaries with your family (ie: you overcompensate with super strong boundaries for dating that keep all men away from you).
A few other less important points:
Best of luck.
you feel a certain level of obligation to your family that is unhealthy.
I second this
[–]SexistFlyingPig1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You're in your mid 20's. You said you won't be available to settle down and start a family for at least 7 more years.
So, no kids for you, then?
[–]Willow-girl1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
No one else will care for them, the obligation has fallen on me and I do not expect any man to take this on.
I didn't think any man would be brave enough to take on a woman whose time and money go to running a large-animal sanctuary, but whaddaya know!
So don't sell yourself short. Let the men you date decide whether your situation is a dealbreaker. You might find one who surprises you.
Also, regarding your family members' insistence that you do all the caregiving: as Dear Abby used to say, no one can take advantage of you unless you let them.
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