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[–]Senior Contributordr_warlock 188 points189 points190 points 11 years ago* (47 children) | Copy Link
Men, for the most part, when not properly incentivized to create surplus, do only enough to sustain themselves.
[–]Kid_Crimson 25 points26 points27 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Deep truth in that concise summary @dr_warlock, but Op's post is not the only possible outcome for society.
The breakdown of patriarchy and the rise of the gynocentric feminist culture within any given community actually results in one of two outcomes. Neither of which properly incentivized to create surplus.
In Resource Abundant communities (i.e. Japan, the suburbs) you see the rise of Hikikomori, MGTOW, and mom's-basement-dwelling Man Child Slackers. All their basic needs met, and no existential threats to be concerned with, these men turn towards low-effort low-production subsistence.
In Resource Scarce communities (i.e. Third World countries, the ghetto) you see the rise of gangs, criminality, illegitimacy, unemployment, and violence. With fierce competition for their basic needs, and existential threats in abundance, these men turn towards a more feral Lord of the Flies high-effort low-production subsistence.
Either outcome is ultimately suicidal and unsustainable for any society.
My advice: Take note of which you live in and act accordingly. Also, to the greatest extent possible, enjoy the decline!
[–]TRP VanguardCyralea 44 points45 points46 points 11 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link
Nice and succinct. Paragraphs can be written about this, but it really is a case of poorly channelling beta productivity.
[–]jiveraffe71 points 11 years ago [recovered] (23 children) | Copy Link
You get what you incentivize. Or more to the point, why would they? Only a pussy drinks sour milk.
Reward cads with as much filthy sex as they can get and then punish the "good" men for providing, caring, producing, and trying with ungrateful women and disrespect and watch your society crumble.
[–]Algernoq 39 points40 points41 points 11 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link
This is why I'm quitting engineering.
The 3-ladder System of Social Class in the U.S. explains a similar "enjoy-the-decline" dynamic happening economically. Smart narcissists enjoy all the money they want while "good" people wish they made more money.
I really wanted to spend my career working for the common good...improving the machines that let people enjoy a good standard of living. But, 5 years later I realized that there is no common good, there's just a hierarchy of managers with mutual self-interest. Having a nationally-defined "common good" would be incredibly creepy. Even if I martyred myself by being a consummate scientist/engineer I'd just make other people richer and not really affect anything. Why bother? Freedom = Selfishness. Time to chase the American Dream.
Fuck academic research -- low pay to "save the world"...ha! Successful academics are chasing prestige, not impact, and their research primarily benefits business.
Fuck engineering -- middle-class pay to "build the future"...ha! Engineers end up socially stunted and interchangeable, while business owners make much more money.
Fuck management -- upper-middle-class pay to be the buffer between selfish owners and replaceable labor...ha! I'm not that clueless.
I'm gonna be an owner, and I'm gonna be rich. That means learning sales, working through other people, and starting organizations that I own 100% of. It feels manipulative to give people social validation and market-rate pay while keeping large profits, but that's how the real world works.
I admire the poetry by which politically-powerful rich people suffer from the lack of scientific progress that their myopia created.
[–]rmlaway 9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I agree with most of your points, but I think that if one has a talent for engineering one should play that strength. Engineering/STEM fields are hard. Business not so much.
Your argument is a bit flawed since sales/business is easier than any STEM field and schools are pumping out biz grads like canned tuna (cuz most people are lazy and like easy). You won't have an edge w/o an engineering background, and while if your smart, you might make it big in business it's def not guaranteed and you'd face more competition in such a rat race.
This is why many of today's successful tech company CEOs used to be engineers first, then later CEOs/businessman/owners.
Food for thought.
[–]Myrpl 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
You must be mistaken. He makes no judgement on whether X is harder than Y. He's stating facts. The software engineer will be the guy who's smarter than the business owner when it comes to mathematics and programming fundamentals, no doubt. But he's going to take the smaller end of the reward when you compare it to what the business owner gets, all the while he sits in front of a computer 12 hours a day, proving that he's following his passion.
And I can only laugh at anyone who thinks that the people who get pumped by business schools are out of necessity good business men. Go to the startups or entrepreneur subreddit and ask how many of them who own a company actually went to a business school for the knowledge, and not for the insanely high networking value that provides.
The safest route is to start from being an engineer who's conscious of reality and learn how the business game goes on your own, just as you said. /u/Algernoq is an engineer and he's learning sales to enrich his skillset. And when later on will be able to hire engineers to work for him, there will be few to no reasons to touch code.
[–]rmlaway 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
He makes no judgement on whether X is harder than Y. He's stating facts.
I know. But the way he wrote it (he doesn't say explicitly he's already an engineer), he makes it sound like engineering is worthless, and business is the end all be all, which is a flawed argument. If he is an engineer already is just learning more about business, then great. All engineers should.
[–]Myrpl 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Well, he says that he's quitting engineering, and to quit something you have to do it first. Can't quit smoking if you don't smoke.
His eyes opened in the relations between the employee and the employer. I don't think he's dumb enough to say that engineers and researchers are worthless, he's just saying that they don't get to hold the biggest piece of the pie in the end.
[–]that_all_you_got7 points 11 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
Fuck man, you swallowed one hard truth there, well done.
[–]2undead_keyboard 8 points9 points10 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
This post struck a cord with me, in that I've also said fuck being a loser or a clueless, but I've been grasping at the next step. Becoming an expert in sales seems so...beautifully obvious, especially in my field of expertise.
How are you going about learning sales?
[–]zxDanKwan 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
As an actual salesperson, I recommend Action Selling. I was a good salesman before that, and I've only gotten better since implementing it, quadrupling my monthly numbers. Others who are more disciplined than I am have accomplished even more with it.
[–]Algernoq 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yes. I read action selling and described the steps in a preliminary interview for a sales job. It got me a 2nd round interview.
[–]Algernoq 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Getting a sales job instead of an engineering job. But I haven't yet.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
You links to a very good article, do you know more from this kind?
[–]krakosia 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Michael o church's entire blog is worth reading. Really long posts so takes patience reading. Lots of stuff on ribbonfarm is brilliant too
[–]HeadingRed 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
"I'm gonna be an owner, and I'm gonna be rich."
Don't give up on education - what are you going to own? Lots of money in STEM in the small\midsize businesses. As a business owner you will have an advantage if you can know when your talent is snowing you.
[–]Algernoq 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Good point. I have to actually be competent to succeed as an owner, and education is a way to get there. Educated people who could get admitted to Stanford for either a PhD or MBA (e.g. who have industry-leading research publications and also have worked in a top-tier consulting firm, or equivalent experience) have good odds of succeeding with a startup company. People who aren't there yet have terrible odds against succeeding.
[–]TreePlusTree -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Owners? You mean shareholders? Dude, anyone can be a shareholder. The biggest businesses are just owned by shitloads of people, no one is keeping us out.
[–]Osoto_Gari 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Shareholders get screwed six ways from Sunday.
I mean owning a controlling interest (51%+, ideally 100%) of a business. Big publicly-owned businesses grow slowly.
[–]mryddlin -3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Engineering will serve you well and will pay itself off.
Flip side is check out projects like Open Source Ecology, there IS a future out there, we just need to build it.
[–]fastball21 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
http://freenortherner.com/2012/05/29/patriarchy-restraining-males/
[–]BoTuLoX 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
"The beautiful ones".
Oh boy humanity's in for a pathetic demise if things stay on this course.
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Only the civilized peoples of the world. One need only look to Africa, which will double in population from 1.1 billion to 2 billion by 2050, to see the future. Strangely, it looks much like the past--I wonder why.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
The solution to the African population crisis is also the solution to the African hunger crisis: Soylent Green. All you need to do is get Hannibal to cook and they'll all be chowing down like no tomorrow.
That and the world will have less Africans which is always a good thing.
[–]TreePlusTree 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Africa can easily produce enough food, and generally produces an output. The problem is dictatorships, warlords, and other forms of big government.
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Well then Soylent Green will take care of that too.
[–]TreePlusTree 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Their government will still control it though. We're talking about the powdered food right? Shouldn't be any different than all the other goods.
[–]Sdom1 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I don't think you are getting the reference.
[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The problem in Africa is mostly the disease burden, and secondarily periodic famine. This enforces large families and basically poverty on the vast majority. All the other problems stem from this, and explain why Africa is the only continent with countries that are getting more poor.
[–]dwus29 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
This was the idea behind monogamy/the nuclear family/Marriage 1.0 with all the harsh punishment and shaming of women who breached the contract. Give the beta male a nice young virgin girl and the near-kingly power over her, and he will be relatively happy and productive and raise the next generation of workers in a stable family setting.
I believe that our current setup of women and the state milking men via the economic rape of no-fault divorce and chalimony (I'm sure employers love having those guys; he quits, he goes to prison) is designed to extract short-term profits from the population without regard for its future health.
[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
is designed to extract short-term profits from the population without regard for its future health.
I don't think it was designed, nor indeed thought out.
The formula is: Women Are Wonderful + Protect The Children + Noone Else Wants To Pay For The Children => Make The Man Pay.
Noone noticed what happens next though: men say "fuck that shit, count me out".
[–]drallcom3 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I could have been a top student, but I only did the neccessary in school. There was no incentive. Later when I started working it was so much more rewarding and I got really good.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Maybe it's because of my interest in economics, but I believe that this is true for not just men but people in general, male or female. People work for incentives; if there are no incentives why work? One could argue that people would still be willing to work for 'the greater good', but let's not kid ourselves; if tomorrow your employer announced that nobody in the company will be paid for their work anymore, would you still stay on?
[–]Daily_Dosage_3 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Incentive is key in society. And a lack thereof is why systems that are too socialist or straightforwardly communist will always fail.
With that said, we need to incentivize ourselves and fight back, whether through deception or in-your-face bravado towards feminists and their supporters. The world and our lives within it can be truly wonderful if we are aware of our capabilities. Places like /trp, where we can find out just how misled and depressive our state was as a man can help us dump the baggage we carry and find incentives in doing things that make us feel alive.
Merely sustaining ourselves is depressive and unnecessary. I did that for awhile, and I feel so much better with clear, pragmatic goals written down, and the incentives to meet said goals.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The best revenge is make your money, cash out, and leave the west to its death throws.
[–]randomuserwot 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Everyone keeps talking about having goals/passions, but except for achieving a good body and financial independence I truly have none. Ain't there nobody else feeling that way? Even as a kid I didn't really have any dreams (or I forgot about them, who knows. I don't dwell in the past). Why does everyone keep pretending that status and hard work should mean shit to us? I don't give a shit about status and I don't need shitloads of money other than what I need to enjoy a life in mediocre luxury and not having to worry about basic needs. What I DO enjoy is gaming, going out, working out, travelling, reading, trying new stuff (e.g. I'm probably gonna try shooting at a shooting range in the near future). That being said, I don't even have my bachelor yet so there's still time to figure out whether I might have other desires (though I doubt it).
[–]2012Aceman 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Goals and passions have been replaced by the consumer culture. We aren't taught how to farm or how to build anymore, we are taught how to buy building materials and how to find a contractor to do it for us. Our education system has programmed us to be supplicant rather than independent, our media has programmed us to be parrots rather thank thinkers, and our government has tricked us into believing it can be done no other way. It can. It can be done our way, as long as there are enough of us and we are strong enough to do it.
[–]randomuserwot 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
My point was more in the direction of a passionless being trying to find passion. I've been thinking about what I truly want for years, yet I'm as close to an answer as when I started pondering about it. The second part was me criticizing people worrying too much about status as a means to raise SMV. If that's your ultimate goal, fine. But don't pretend like that should be everyone's goal. Trying to increase one's status through climbing the corporate ladder is - in my opinion - as blue pill as it gets. You're following society's way. There isn't even enough incentive for that if money and women aren't as important a factor in your life as comfort and pursuing your hobbies. If you share that view - disregarding SMV implications - you can either get a job that pays enough for mediocre luxury and allows enough freetime to follow your interests/hobbies OR you can start your own business, relieving yourself from the stress of having someone above you and creating for yourself the potential of earning a shit ton of money, nurturing your financial independence.
[–][deleted] 120 points121 points122 points 11 years ago (51 children) | Copy Link
It's real simple. You've got a generation of men who were told that they'd need to spend their entire youth in school so they could get a good job so they could buy themselves love in the form of a wife. But now they've realized they've been sold a bill of goods, and that maybe the reward isn't even attainable under the best circumstances.
[–][deleted] 72 points73 points74 points 11 years ago (35 children) | Copy Link
The kicker is when they realize the "reward" is being a working ATM bitch to a woman.
[–]lestratege39 points40 points41 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
They know it from a while ago. Please do not assign cultural practice of the West to Japan because it is not the case. In the traditional Japanese family, which still happens today, the husband is the sole breadwinner, since they still have many jobs that are paid well enough to support a family (especially if there is just one child). Traditionally the husband earned the money, but the wife did the budgeting and spending. She even give an allowance to the husband ("okozukai") out of his OWN paycheck (yep). It's so steeply ingrained in this culture that some companies allow to wire "secret bonuses" to different account, so the wife is unaware of that money. In exchange, the husband get to be taken care of by their wife like they were by their mother, and to fuck on the side if that's what they want.
The thing with current Japanese culture, is not that female have gained more power (they haven't in reality), it is that the traditional male role has lost all its appeal, especially since there are less jobs that can sustain it.
If you speak to 20 years-old University Japanese females, many openly say they want to become housewives. They know it is the easy life ("nonbiri" as they say).
Japan IS a society of MGTOW, this is precisely why it is called dysfunctional (because objectively, it is. A proper society should have both sexes working to common goals). And since having children outside of wedlock is so shamed upon, it is not happening. The result is that you have a lot of very unhappy women who desperately want a man and children and who aren't gonna get any.
The result is that you have people in their 20's and 30's with or without decent job, still living with their parents, and spending money on themselves.
[–]TheQuestion78 12 points13 points14 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
This isn't a society of MGTOW. It was a society that forced MGTOW. There is a difference there. Here in the US we are fortunate to have both MGTOW and Red Pillers exist and (hopefully) thrive. The biggest issue in Japan is some of the things you said but the women there contribute to the dysfunction. Many 20 something year old females frequently say when talking to the press/documentary people that they do not want to bother raising a family because they know society would push that traditional role on them. Some of them are committed to the feminist ideal and so they reject that kind of lifestyle and are trying their best to combat the workplace discrimination/rise to the top.
On top of that, the commercialization of sex makes it hard for the males to compete. You see things like "male-Hooters-like" coffee shops, bars where hot males get paid to flex muscles and be emotional tampons for women and so on. The average Japanese dude can't compete because all a Japanese woman has to do is acquire some money and she can get all she would hope for out of a boyfriend very easily. At that point, a Japanese dude would have to become a unicorn to overcome that and I don't even think most of us here can consider ourselves male unicorns so its a pretty impossible standard to live up to.
Such conditions force MGTOW due to the economic and social realities of it. But the society is dysfunctional because MGTOW shouldn't be forced. It should be chosen. I feel for those Japanese dude and the immense pressures they face. Sadly, they may as well be a sign of things to come.
[–]lestratege9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
This isn't a society of MGTOW. It was a society that forced MGTOW.
I disagree. Japanese separate by gender quite naturally, even when they don't have to. They do so in every activity they do. They do nothing in couple, except a handful of social functions (for finding a mate, gokkon etc., funerals, etc.) Americans do that to some extent (girls night out, guys night out, etc. vs. dates) I am personally from a culture (France) that doesn't do that, so it is quite noticeable for me.
Many 20 something year old females frequently say when talking to the press/documentary people that they do not want to bother raising a family because they know society would push that traditional role on them. Some of them are committed to the feminist ideal and so they reject that kind of lifestyle and are trying their best to combat the workplace discrimination/rise to the top.
That's a wrong presentation of the situation I think. The females have the following choice: get married and have a kid and spend their husband money. Or do not get married and stay with their parents or live alone if they can and spend their money. Many opt for the second option. But those who want children are actually having a hard time finding husbands, and for a reason. Unlike in the West, there is no single-mother, and very few divorced mothers. That option is almost non-existent for Japanese females, and this changes the dynamic compared to the West.
For males, they can find a seishain position (there are some left), get married and be the slave to your boss and wife, the upside being you'll always be taken care of and have nothing to worry about, go drinking and have no responsibility whatsoever. Or do as female option #2.
The average Japanese dude can't compete because all a Japanese woman has to do is acquire some money and she can get all she would hope for out of a boyfriend very easily.
I disagree. There is one thing she can never get from a male that is easy for a Western female: have a child. In order to have one, she needs to be married first, and for that consent, the male is the one who decides. Their sexual market here is lacking males, not females. Check out "herbivore men". What are those? Bascially MGTOW, who decided that having sex isn't worth the hassle to get it, and if need be then a Chinese hooker will do just fine and will cost less overall.
Women are left without appropriate mate options. Even more so in the last 20 years where the positions of seishain have drastically lessened and so the potential positions to be a breadwinner have lessened, hence there are less suitable men for women who want children and the father that comes with it (yep, the nice thing about Japanese mentality is that they still consider it a package).
Many Japanese males are perfectly happy hopping from temp job to temp job. They live with their parents forever, have money to spend on themselves, just like the females. It is a terribly materialistic society, and creates miserable people. In that you are right to call it a sign of things to come.
But the thing is, in Japan, the women are greatly aware that they are the ones who LOST more than the men in the society change. They compensate by spending money on themselves because "they are worth it" as L'Oreal would say.
[–]TheQuestion78 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You misunderstand MGTOW. MGTOW doesn't advocate for separation of the sexes. MGTOW advocates being your own man and doing what you want to do without sacrificing any bit of yourself. You can still have friends who are girls, girlfriends, and even committed relationships as a MGTOW but the catch is that as soon as those relationships start demanding you doing things you don't want to do or as soon as those things decrease your self-autonomy, you end those relationships.
That's a wrong presentation of the situation I think. The females have the following choice: get married and have a kid and spend their husband money. Or do not get married and stay with their parents or live alone if they can and spend their money. Many opt for the second option. But those who want children are actually having a hard time finding husbands, and for a reason. Unlike in the West, there is no single-mother, and very few divorced mothers. That option is almost non-existent for Japanese females, and this changes the dynamic compared to the West. For males, they can find a seishain position (there are some left), get married and be the slave to your boss and wife, the upside being you'll always be taken care of and have nothing to worry about, go drinking and have no responsibility whatsoever. Or do as female option #2.
Yes many are opting for the second option which is contributing to the problem. The point I am trying to make is that it isn't only men leaving the market, it is the women as well. And those women who want families are indeed missing out.
I disagree. There is one thing she can never get from a male that is easy for a Western female: have a child. In order to have one, she needs to be married first, and for that consent, the male is the one who decides. Their sexual market here is lacking males, not females.
Bout to drop some stats on ya:
The percentage of women who responded they were not interested in sex at all or felt an aversion to it was 60.3 percent for ages 16-19 and 31.6 percent for ages 20-24. Combine the age groups, and the average response was about 46 percent negative — the figure that drove attention-grabbing stories in Western media. The association released its newest survey for 2014 a few months ago. In that survey, 65.8 percent of women 16-19 were not interested in sex or felt an aversion to it, and 39.2 percent of women 20-24 felt the same way.
Article 1
7,000 people aged 20 to 39. Valid responses were received from 37.8 percent...Of the total, 28.8 percent said they are unmarried and are not in romantic relationships. Of them, 39.1 percent of women and 36.2 percent of men said they do not want a romantic partner.
Article 2
Both articles clearly indicate that Japanese women from around the 20s to the late 30s outnumber the men in terms of not wanting sex, relationships, etc. The sexual market is not lacking males. It is more accurate to say it is equally both parties. However, I would venture to say is the "herbivore men" phenomena is one of the many direct results of males knowing they do not have a chance in the sexual marketplace and thus do not invest in it since the cost will outweigh the benefit. I won't deny that this is a MGTOW concept, but it is as I said earlier a type of forced MGTOW rather than going MGTOW as a choice.
Women are left without appropriate mate options. Even more so in the last 20 years where the positions of seishain have drastically lessened and so the potential positions to be a breadwinner have lessened, hence there are less suitable men for women who want children and the father that comes with it
On the flip side the loss of positions of seishain has increased the costs of being a father and has made it tougher. Those men who decided to have a family already are the ones most suffering because their wives are driving them to do more to sustain the family and they are in a position where they really can't not matter how much extra work they do. Other men have seen how miserable these dudes are and that drives them to become "herbivore men". They have two choices: loneliness or misery. Most of them wisely choose loneliness.
in Japan, the women are greatly aware that they are the ones who LOST more than the men in the society change.
I would love to agree with this but I doubt it. Many of them straight up don't consider having a family to be in their benefit (the young ones). While the others are doing there own kind of hamstering where they see the issue as Japan is lacking good men since there are too many deadbeat Otakus. Their society wouldn't be in such a decline if both genders were thinking about things in the right way, and from what I can tell neither really are.
[–]djn808 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Generally kids do not have backpacks at their desks and ready to throw - zippered shut
I believe this is a holdover from Samurai Honor practices. Haggling and negotiating was considered shameful and beneath the Samurai so they had their wives handle it all for them. Bickering over a few dollars was considered the depths of Shame.
The west is probably the only place where single adults dont live with family.
[–]skoobled 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Excellent Summary. I lived in tokyo for six years and an very familiar with the social climate
[–]zxDanKwan 10 points11 points12 points 11 years ago (26 children) | Copy Link
Unfortunately, they didn't realize that. They only realized there weren't enough women for each of them to get one. Japanese and Chinese cultures are so focused on male heirs and limiting the number of children you can have that the next generation is going to be pretty much only men...
They're actually depressed that they won't get to be an ATM for a woman...
[–]Senior Contributordr_warlock 10 points11 points12 points 11 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link
There was a video I saw on the chinese dating market. There's a shortage of females, now only the top ~10% get the women. In the interview, two men told the reporter that only guys with lots of money can get girls in China.
~"It really pisses me off, I don't want to talk about it"
[–]Easih 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
Singapor and also chinese top cities is full of potential women because the man are not interested in women who are as educated or more than themselve.
[–]Hoodwink 4 points4 points4 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Are you sure it's the 'education'?
Or the fact that they are older (I think they don't consider any single woman above age 27 or 28 'good' in Asian cultures) and don't like the fact that a woman has had casual sex or possible prostitution (to pay for the education)?
Also, a lot of women feel entitled and become bitchy and controlling when they get an education and some money. It's like they suddenly feel their SMV rocket up and don't seem to handle rises in socio-economics or the stress very well at all.
[–]Easih 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Yep I wasn't referring to the above age X that is present in Culture like china as this is fairly standard knowledge. Singapor is a good example of the Education effect, can't say for certain in China as I haven't been there.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
I have been living in Shanghai for two years. SH is like most cities has a 1:1 male to female ratio as the countryside girls move here for work to send money home. The country boys are more in trouble in that regard. Sure some of the country girls return home to marry a beta provider after working here in a massage parlor or worse, the county beta clueless. The smarter and prettier ones land a guy here.
China also has a serious wall here, women after about age 28 are untouchable. Women are still expected to marry early and pump out a kid, or now two that the one child policy has changed.
Women who are trying to get masters degrees and setup careers risk ending up untouchable. It does make sense to have two partners with a good income as SH is expensive and getting more so. But finding that balance is difficult. Many businesses still prioritize hiring men.
As for me I enjoy the untouchable ladies. Chinese women age well. They are not as pretty on average as any other eastern counties but SH alone has thirty million people, there are plenty enough pretty ones to be found.
[–]randomuserwot 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Public shaming of cuckoldry also takes place. There are a lot of repercussions for shameless female behaviour in China. However, it is also not uncommon for Chinese "ladies" to act out: beating their boyfriend in public, letting the boyfriend tie their shoelaces etc. It's not just not unheard of, it's especially not unseen of. The "henpecking" wife who earns more than her husband might be the result of the "untouchable" culture I guess.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I have certainly seen women and girls berating their boys, making them carry all their stuff etc. I saw one girl just screaming at her boy in the metro not too long ago. It was so pathetic.
What I have seen also is the women who have been abroad to study or work come home with one of two attitudes. They have either adopted the western idea of getting married later, having the career kids, the western having it all fantasy. Or they simply cannot stand Chinese men any more to date. They need a nice alpha.
[–]I_is_the_best 13 points14 points15 points 11 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
I think you mixed japan with china. Google sex ratio for both countries.
China is a new frontier. Those guys with no realistic perspectives are still trying to achieve something (ie they are not on the level where they conciously realize that they are fucked and vast majority of them will fail). In a developing economy like chinease you still have women who are sort of traditionally oriented (not spoiled by years of easy life) and relatively large proportion of men can elevate their social status thanks to hard work and lots of luck.
Japan is years past that stage. So the japanease men either perfectly realize they are fucked or get it on subconcious level.
[–][deleted] 15 points16 points17 points 11 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link
China is going to be a major problem, soon. They have a disproportionately male population that is huge, a totalitarian govt with eyes on an empire and their economy just started to crash. With millions of angry, disillusioned men sitting idle, those in charge will have two choices - let that anger fester into a revolution at home or direct all those disposable drones outward to conquer and gain new resources. US hegemony is going to get tested hard and the systematic pussification of our men and military is not going to serve us well in this fight.
You WILL have WWIII. Theres no way around it.
[–]Algernoq 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
We've all got nukes...I can see a low-intensity proxy war but not an all-out WWIII because that ends with Predator drones patrolling radioactive ruins.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
I dont see anyone wanting to use nukes. Thats going to be absolutely last resort. But too many nations have a surplus of males that they need to offload. How else is that going to happen? Its either pandemic (risky with uncontrolled exposure) or ongoing conflicts. War has the benefit of also increasing economic activity. Theres a good video on YT about how hypergamy was supressed historically through male casualties in wartime. When 20% - 40% of males die, society flourishes. When peace breaks out and the population builds back to pre war levels hypergamy once again explodes. Of course its always there but its much less effective when there are shortages of males. Even perceived shortages of males have a dampening effect.
[–]Algernoq 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I'm not sure how this could go down in practice...
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Wars over water, land, resources, religion, the same way its been going on for millenia.
[–]Hoodwink0 points 11 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
I think you'll see Chinese men immigrate once they 'get it'.
Or you might see something creative and poach wives from war-zones or high poverty areas.
[–]Endorsed ContributorFLFTW16 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Chinese men are well known for importing Vietnamese women to be their wives. Vietnam's population is still exploding. It wasn't long ago that the fertility rate was like 6 or 7 children to every woman.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
It doesnt matter if there are enough women for everyone. All the women want the same 20% of men. The issue is freedom. When women get freedom you get feminism and the death of society. Unrestrained hypergamy means your nation implodes. It is impossible to sustain.
[–]zxDanKwan 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
True, all women want the same 20% of men, but eventually, they hit the wall and realize they aren't getting that, and they settle down for beta bux.
In the past, these women would settle for the lesser men, just as they do elsewhere, because they had no options.
When there aren't any women, you don't even get someone to settle for you. You just get forgotten.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
With the gov tit and income redistribution they need bb less than ever. And since Oprah tells them never to settle they are happy to be a side piece indefinitely. That's what I see here. Obese single mothers turning away good bb every day. With online dating there are men knocking down their doors every day. No exaggeration.
[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
boyz need to be getting ATM from a woman.
[–]Xfapster 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yeah but typically women that will support a man are usually women with issues, and generally not attractive. Or at least, the guy has to be so much more attractive to her for her to be willing to provide for him.
If a guy is so much more attractive than her, then he'd probably rather find someone on his level more or at least close.
I actually had a situation like this, lol. I wasn't that attracted to her but her ass was phenomenal, and i'm an ass man... so I could still get hard to fuck her, although it was always doggie which thankfully she usually didn't mind.
Eventually she got tired of it, along with her rising in smv and me decreasing... so we broke up, and I was a bitter beta for years until I found this TRP shit and everything made sense.
[–]Endorsed Contributorzyk0s 42 points43 points44 points 11 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
I'm not sure they actually realized it, I think it's more of a subconscious process. Social pain is real, women react to it by crying and gathering sympathy, men must outlive it and gain respect. But what do you do when the pain is unbearable, there was no strong male model to teach you how to cope with it, there is no sight of success if you persevere and the entertainment industry of your culture provides a release for deep fantasies and acts as a medication? You take that drug, it makes you feel good and you see no reason to get off it to return to a life of social misery.
We have a hammer, and it's important not to see everything as a nail. This isn't entirely about gender relations, there's a big technological and traditional component there. Getting two nuclear bombs explode in your face and force your proud military and honor-based hierarchy to capitulate also dealt a huge blow to the men's confidence. All of it is related and influences one another. All that is certain is that the outcome of this crisis will give an example to the rest of the world what happens when you alienate a huge segment of the male population and they retract their labor. It could inspire the next generation to push hard against feminism and return to a more patriarchal set of value. It could also simply allow them not to care. The 2030's is going to be an interesting decade.
[–]hamstercide 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Excellent post. Everyone in this discussion should also look up the term "salaryman", which is the dutiful provider role they have to aspire to, and "karoshi", death by overwork.
Yep. You've made excellent points in all cases. I've struggled with similar issues over the course of my life, so I can relate to what they're going through.
[–][deleted] 28 points29 points30 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Here son, go work hard your entire life so that one day you can become a slave to a lesser being.
Thanks Pa!
[–]cariboo_j 46 points47 points48 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
In traditional Japanese marriage the husband works while the wife manages the finances and gives him an allowance.
Considering the Japanese typically work like 50-100 hours per week... I'd be saying no thanks too. Work yourself literally to death while some woman tells you how to spend your money?
Sitting at home playing video games seems like a better alternative.
[–]Easih 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
forgot the part where once they reach retirement age and now are at home more often, they are seen as useless by their wife.
[–]cariboo_j 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Oh shit! Here's an excellent video on this subject.
Traditional marriage in Japan from an MGTOW perspective.
How long must the farce continue
[–]triperfecta 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Also the part where most husbands die first due to overwork, and the widows are left to enjoy his hard-earned cash in their golden years.
[–]skoobled 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This is why you don't marry a Japanese girl in japan. In their 20s they're pretty and feminine, but put a ring on them and they'll ship you to the murder burbs and neuter you
I saw that fate coming. Glad in enjoyed the former and escaped the latter
Been here a year 1/2 and haven't heard anybody put it quite like that. It's really pathetic when you think about it. So glad I found this place so that will never become my fate.
[–]1favours_of_the_moon 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Wow, well said.
Women get their fair shot to contribute to and influence society. Some do, some don't. It'll shake itself out. Society is going to really start appreciating the value of masculine influence.
[–][deleted] 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
[permanently deleted]
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Looking back on my life, I had strong hikkimori tendencies.
Basically, the rule went like this:
a. E.g. Moved to a new country and a new school; bullied by everyone, therefore, retreat into books and video-games. When I started making friends a few years later, I played games less and socialized more. Unfortunately, that led to drug use.
b. Drug use led to social failures; where it was initially "cool" to be a user, failure to control excesses led to a decline in social value and SMV which led to rejections which led to depression . . . and a retreat into video-games.
c. Shitty job market; cutting off drugged social circle to self-improve led to isolation, and depression . . . video-games.
d. Academic setbacks . . . video-games.
e. PTSD from doing disaster relief . . . video-games for a month.
f. Broke up with LTR . . . video-games.
Overall though, my ability to receive pain has improved over time, and each episode was less severe than the previous one.
Video-games are a shit form of meditation; I guess you could say distraction where you focus on something trivial fills the role of meditation; you take your mind off the problem to feel better. Meditation just means you send the bad thoughts away, either by will, or by non-reaction / observation.
Another thing to consider: leaving the house is expensive. It costs energy to move around. Moving around makes you hungry, so then you want to buy food. If you have no money coming in, spending it is painful. Also, there are transportation costs. Then you see a whole bunch of consumer items on display that you can't afford. Staying at home avoids all this pain and you can pretend like you're not costing anyone anything, since the parents bear the costs.
[–]johngalt1234 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
What seems good in the short-term will be even more detrimental in the long-term.
Pain avoided now will result in much greater pain later. Hikikomori can only be so long before they grow old or a disaster cuts short the food supply.
See, that's my problem. I chose a bluepill job for blue pill reasons and now I'm pissed off and I regret it.
[–]damn_mothernature25 points 11 years ago* [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link
The root of the problem is the economy. Yea, the economy has always been shit for most of human history, but the difference today is, most of the people that would have died off is alive.
Let's be honest here, women coming into the workplace has been the worst thing that has happened to men.
Competition is ridiculous today for the average male. It's bad in the US, but it's a nightmare in Japan. To live life as a salaryman is almost worst than death, if you can even get hired, which many don't. They're going down the contract worker route just like here in the US.
To go to school for 12 years, study most hours of the day and another 4 years of college is not easy. Not everyone was made for this.
Know what is the #1 most abused drug in Japan? Meth. Some of them literally need it to get through study and work. Just like here in the US, half the college population is on Adderall. And it's not just college, a shit ton of medical residents, professors and lawyers need it to get through work. A lot of them are now turning to modafinil as well. You won't hear much about it because people don't like talking about their habits.
Modern life didn't get easier. Sure, we don't die as easily today. But I ask you, what is the point of life if we have to work 12-16 hours a day without any paid overtime? What is the point of life when your boss is calling you up while you're on vacation and when you need to be jacked up on some kind of stimulants to get through the day?
It's not getting that bad here in the US just yet, but just wait. Unpaid internship and contract work is common now. Fortunately, the US has a culture that is more accepting of misfits. Japan is not as forgiving. You can hardly find another job if you get fired or decide to quit because the company is working you to death. And they DO get worked to death. This is something a lot of people here on TRP do not understand. Some of the men don't get home from work until 2am and they wake up at 6am. They do this for months and years. Some quit, some commit suicide, some simply fall over and die while at their desk. If you ask any young men what they want in life, it's definitely not this. This has nothing to with being alpha or beta. It's the only option given to them by society. Some of them just drop out and work at convenient stores making next to nothing. Sure as hell is better than sleeping 3-4 hours a night for years, slaving away your life for a corporation.
Then they wonder why the suicide rate is so high. My advice to those on here, don't try to make every problem fit a certain narative. Some of these Japanese women get overworked, too. Some just want to find a sugar daddy husband but I know many others that would rather work to support the family as well.
You don't paint millions of people with one broad stroke and pat yourself on the back.
The fact is, competition is intense and it's killing these guys slowly. Not everyone will get to breed. Their society is different than ours and much less forgiving. You won't find baby mama living off welfare from 5-6 children born out of wedlock. In Japanese society, they would all starve. The mother would commit suicide and take the baby to death with her when she feels that there's no hope left.
Then you have crazy shit like a JAV star that estimated he has fucked over 20,000 women in his career. A rich guy who hired Thai women as surrogate mothers to produce over 30 children via in-vitro fertilization.
Some of the Japanese women are innocent virgins that tremble if you so much as flirt with them. Others can go head-to-head with the worst CC riders here in the US. The poison is spreading very fast. China and Vietnam are some of the last countries where you'll still see some semblance of traditional values.
And one of the poster above is right. Some of these men do go to other countries to poach women, mainly in Vietnam and the Philippines. I can tell you Vietnam in particular, there is a huge surge in violent crimes. In some areas in the North, there is 150 boys for every 100 girls. In other areas, it's 120 to 100. The Asians love having boys and they reap the consequence of their stupidity. Some strategy does not work for society when everyone is using it.
If they didn't have porn, prostitution and video games, some of these countries would have already implode.
We're always talking about the decline here on TRP. You're watching it happen right now. Having children out of wedlock and living off welfare is a perfectly valid strategy if you look at it objectively. The people who are marginally employed can barely afford to support their family and they're paying the most tax to support other people's kids.
Is this not a wonderful irony of life? In major cities in the US, not a week that goes by that you don't hear about some tax-paying citizen who are working hard to support their family getting robbed by some gangbanger. A few months back, an Asian woman was shot dead while carrying groceries back to her apartment. All over a purse. She left behind four children. This is your Great Society. Your tax dollar at work supporting murderers and future murderers.
[–]wanderer779 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
what I don't understand is, why do japanese corporations earn such pitiful returns on capital? You'd think when you are squeezing your labor like that some of it would be showing up on the bottom line.
[–]MindTheFuture 23 points24 points25 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Virtual communities, games and porn offering more pleasant, safer, less demanding and damaging options. Tempting to go for, when the alternative is to become money-slave in a traditionalist culture where the rewards for the prescribed filling the male-role aren't that great. They have the herbivore culture as well, as subcultures of rebellion against the corporate-drone culture - mainly from men, women still expect to get their rich providers.
If there are plenty of men opting out of the society, assuming the competition for good jobs is then easier, are the women choosing to go for the careers? And how is that working out?
[–]prodigyx[🍰] 63 points64 points65 points 11 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
Typical Japanese, 10 years ahead of the US.
[–]DexterousRichard 17 points18 points19 points 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
Yep. They have the most advanced fax machines in the world...
[–]CNileDotA 22 points23 points24 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
It's such an odd technological disparity they have going on. You leave your un-air-conditioned suburban house, ride the marvel of engineering that is the bullet train to your new city of residence, and get a job at a company that still relies on fax machines.
[–]syther23 9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
I have experience working in a DoD environment and a lot of departments still use fax machines for legal reasons, data retention, etc.
[–]zpatriarchy 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
aren't they more secure? is anyone hacking fax machines?
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I've definitely gotten fax spam before. The spam fax machine will call phone numbers in order until it reaches another fax machine and then will print out an advertisement.
[–]zpatriarchy 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
i remember fax spam, lol. i meant that you can send SS#s through fax without worrying about it.
[–]beachbloke 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
No, they are just simple and fast. Source: I used to work for the company that made $20,000/unit ruggedized/securized DoD fax machines.
[–]triperfecta 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
it's because official documents usually have to be stamped with a 'hanko '
[–]TheColdDark 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's the stamps they use in place of signatures, and the opinion of older (and in charge) generations that paper is more permanent than data.
[–]czworooki 17 points18 points19 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
That`s what you get for slaving your whole life in school and job.
[–][deleted] 31 points32 points33 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
"Take a look at the men today. It seems that most of them have a woman’s heart. There are very few true men anymore. It is easy for a strong warrior to gain the advantage these days because so few have any courage at all. This loss of the warrior spirit is easily shown by the fact that men today cannot even behead a convicted criminal with his hands tied behind his back"
-Yamamoto Tsunetomo
Predicted the fall of man centuries ago
[–]1rporion 11 points12 points13 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
"Hagakure", "Under the leaves", Yamamoto Tsunetomo, Samurai of the Nabeshima Clan.
What is interesting is that he wrote that, well, he did not write it, decades after Tokugawa Ieyasu unified Japan and the need for Samurai was no longer what it had been.
I don't think beheading someone is necessary but the guy is right. Dudes these days have no spine. If a woman cheats on them, they consider taking them back. If a woman belittles him everyday, he will accept it as long as he has the CHANCE to get laid (and he probably won't). And I can go on and on about this. It's sad too see how far we have fallen.
[–]FemtoG 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's insane how century after century, there are quotes about how men are weakening.
[–]1sardinemanR 10 points11 points12 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Hmm, I wonder what percentage of the male population of that age it is now. 5%? 10%? When does it become a crisis.
I'm sure there are many reasons for it, and I agree with others that state the US is heading down that route. I'm not sure I care though, I mean I'm not the one that makes the rules for society or anything, so why should I care?
I only care to look out for myself. I used to care about society and mention problems, but as a man I learned nobody cares and nobody values my opinion, so why bother. I suspect Japanese men, who have fairly high IQs, have figured that out too.
If anything, they need a Japanese translated TRP.
[–]NeoreactionSafe 55 points56 points57 points 11 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link
Depopulation is happening all over the world starting with the highest IQ's and working downwards.
The lowest IQ cultures breed the fastest because they are in a sense "autistic" when it comes to the bigger picture.
Red Pill tries to convert higher IQ Beta Bucks types into more self aware animals.
When the overall culture teaches a negative fertility it is the animal mind that blissfully fucks and fights his way through life while completely ignoring the standards of the culture.
The beasts are doing better than the nuclear bomb makers.
(a complete reversal of fortune)
[–]1sardinemanR 20 points21 points22 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I've read before somewhere that higher IQ leads to less chance of reproduction, something like 1% per IQ point above the average. I wish I had saved the link.
Society is definitely driven forward by higher IQs, that's how technology is invented and implemented, policy is developed and advances are made.
However we see that female attraction is clearly more towards height and brawn. And we've mentioned on here women select for "alphas" which are generally muscular, 6'+ and dominant, extroverted attitudes. But really you won't find many scientists and the like with those descriptors. It's usually the very opposite.
[–]StManTiS 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Works the same for women. Being smart don't make the rocket fly. Your PhD ain't doing nothin for me, so get on yo knees.
[–]1grubek 14 points15 points16 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
I think this proves high IQ is overrated when it comes to succeeding in the world. I have high IQ but I've always felt there was something that I was missing.
[–]MrChillBroBaggins 20 points21 points22 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
You're feeling the void of the red pill. You're high IQ recognizes key patterns for success and life, but alternatively feels the fruitlessness of such a cause.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
So what cause is truly fruitful?
[–]TreePlusTree 8 points9 points10 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
None, therefore you are free.
[–]SpawnQuixote 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Sometimes "missing" is winning, especially in this toxic culture.
I'm having the time of my life, how about you? Life is what you make of it. See the signs, make course corrections, keep on keeping on.
[–]Senior Contributordr_warlock 21 points22 points23 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
The further a society advances, the more of an economic burden children become because it requires more and more of a 'gestation period' (ie schooling), thus a greater financial investment, before children even become useful. After a certain point, people start deciding to react to this phenomenon by having less or no children at all.
Because this becomes more prevalent the higher you go on the socioeconomic and IQ ladder, you're left with the lower class. The lower class, much of who would have been wiped out of the gene pool weren't it for subsidies from forced wealth distribution (taxes) and medical technology, are allowed to live and breed like rabbits. This causes the saturation (pollution?) in the human species with the inferior. The average person is not only getting older due to the fertility rate being too low as provided by the demographic winter videos you shared, but is getting dumber, inferior genes are being selected.
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
It appears Idiocracy was correct.
If you haven't already, I suggest searching YouTube for the documentary called demographic winter. Exciting and scary, but also inevitable.
[–]Senior Contributordr_warlock 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
/u/NeoreactionSafe was the one who shared those videos with us, here
The patriarchal religious will inherit the earth.
[–]MyRedAccount 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This is my excuse for being an irresponsible drunk.
[–]randomuserwot 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You do know of a thing called "regression to the mean" though, don't you?
[–][deleted] 15 points16 points17 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Japan is a bit of a canary, but they have their own special problems. They don't want to open the floodgates of immigration, and old people in Japan just don't die. They are screwed.
It's really interesting to how gynocentrism affect two very different cultures in different ways, but the result is the same.
[–]NastiN8 17 points18 points19 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yea grand idea. Just open the flood gates. Really worked out great for Sweden. Those middle easterners are now but brown Swedes. Oh wait /s. The Japan we know today will cease to exist if they had an open gate policy. Their culture is not compatible with others. 90% of humans would not respect their hyper clean polite society and lay waste to it
[–]Sdom1 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
No, they're not. Ever noticed that the Japanese really, really love robots? In fact, they are on the forefront of robotics design. Start reading some articles about the coming job losses due to automation. A lot of menial tasks are no longer going to require human labor, thus eliminating most of the need for immigration from lower income countries for manual labor purposes.
This is what's hilarious about the US's current stance on immigration policy - we aren't going to need low wage laborers in as little as 10 years. The only reason they're all being waived in is to grant one political party a permanent advantage.
If anything, Japan will be in a BETTER position than countries like China, which is going to have tons of people who don't have all those manufacturing jobs anymore. Don't think the Chinese government hasn't been working on their gameplan to survive this for quite some time.
The reason they are screwed is because they have a welfare state with massive debt. Thier debt to GDP ration (gross domestic product, measurement of what the country produces each year) is over 200%, the highest in the world. Debt wouldn't be much of a problem if they could increase production, which is done by increasing the workforce. They can't do that by adding women to the workforce, that well has already been tapped. There's no new native workers in the pipeline because no one is having children. To make matters worse a lot of able bodied men are checking out of society, either like the Hikikomori, or the herbivore men, many of whom only make enough to live a minimalist existence. That's not good news for a country that sells more adult diapers the children's diapers.
And when I mentioned immigration I meant skilled workers, not political refugees or anything like that.
[–]Sdom1 -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Dude, AI is coming onto the scene, and more quickly than people think. Even some of the more complex jobs aren't safe. There are already researchers working on AI to replace doctors, and they are already claiming high accuracy rates in making diagnoses. Give that 10-20 years and see where we are.
Japan's increases in production can all come from leveraging that technology, which is what they are working like mad on doing.
The countries that are super screwed are those with too many people, not the ones without enough. China has two economic advantages - one, a huge cheap work force, and two, the willingness to pollute and destroy their own environment. In China, they are already preparing for the transition to AI and advanced robotics. But what will they do with all of those people who don't have the opportunities they once did, and especially those 30 million extra males?
[–]Myrpl 18 points19 points20 points 11 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link
If you're into anime and you want to see a truly depressive show about a Hikikomori, watch "Welcome to NHK". It resembled at parts how my life was before I find and apply TRP. Most definitely not your generic anime bullshit with hot girls that betas can drool over their boobs because they're too disheartened to approach a woman irl. The guy who wrote the story was also a Hikikomori.
But if you're depressed, avoid it like your life depends on it. It's really heavy and tackles themes like suicide.
[–]ShinyBrah4 points 11 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link
I watched NHK thinking it'd be a tale of redemption to boost my spirits a while back. Boy I was wrong. Would recommend to those who don't understand NEET culture to show why it's not so black and white.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
The last episode will haunt me forever...
Guys should never lead their lives as a weak-willed person, it will only lead to a tragic end.
[–]IntoTheBlight 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Came here to suggest this anime. No happy ending, just a "life keeps going on" feeling the viewer is left with
[–]_Stardog 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I had a bit of social anxiety as a 13 year old. A friend of mine (who happens to be one of the most RP women I know now) let me borrow the manga, and I read the entire series in two days. It changed my life for the better, as I decided to stop being a pussy, and kick the ass of my anxieties.
[–]Myrpl 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I can't imagine myself reading it that young but I believe that being exposed to "Welcome to NHK" before I discover this sub helped me slide the pill faster than I would without it.
[–]_Stardog 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I'd have to agree. It was interesting to see most character in that series be complete assholes. And most of the women were shown to be manipulative and deceiving. It definitely instilled some RP philosophy and wariness of women in me at a young age.
For some reason after watching it I felt like it was a cross between Fight Club and Office Space, with some really really depressing parts.
[–]cariboo_j 22 points23 points24 points 11 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link
For fuck's sake, MGTOW isn't locking yourself in your room and becoming a hermit. It's just no marriage, and even more indifference to women than TRP.
Pretty similar to TRP but lower priority on game and raising SMV. You can do that if you like, but MGTOW thinks doing anything for the specific purpose of getting laid is pandering to women. Better to pursue what interests you. And if girls like that, great. If not oh well.
[–]slutnip 15 points16 points17 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Most of the guys I know, are retired and early to mid 40s, some of them millionaires, created their own businesses, travelled the world, seen everything, dated many many women.
Whats left at this point in your life? Keep fucking bitches? It gets old, deep down they know if they marry one and have kids, they are going to get fucked. "The juice isnt worth the squeeze" I dont really think this is a conscious decision on their part more of a cause and effect of society in general
I accidently did MGTOW/Monk Mode after failed relationships after college (before I knew what it was or there was a name to it). It was a subconscious response to how I handled the hand I was being dealt. With that being said, Im glad I did it and didnt get married and divorce raped with 2.3 kids too.
[–]ShinyBrah 2 points2 points2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
MGTOW is going your own way though? Hikkokimori went their own way and stay shut in away from society. Even if it is unproductive, at least their living their lives their own way.
Technically Hikikomori are going their own way.
I'm just trying to dispel the stereotype that all MGTOW are a bunch of neck beard losers who can't get laid. How TRP views MGTOW is ironically similar to how the rest of the internet views TRP.
[–]Jewbano 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If anyone is interested this video by an American living in Japan will explain it a bit more.
[–]raob11 7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I wonder how many American young men are effectively in the same position today? We call them neckbeards...
[–][deleted] 17 points18 points19 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Didn't you hear, its TRP thats the neckbeards...
[–][deleted] 14 points15 points16 points 11 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link
I wonder how many of these Japanese men would resurface if they didn't have instant, unlimited access to porn?
[–]jiveraffe 28 points28 points28 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It's a cost-benefit analysis.
Pornography and sex are like McD's and an expensive French restaurant respectively. Sometimes you're just hungry and you want a quick fix. Sometimes you want to eat a good steak. However the comparative cost-benefit analysis for the two are becoming increasingly less contrasting.
If you're hungry enough a BigMac is sufficient. It's also cheap, fast, and easy. It's never really changed. Whereas the french restaurant is becoming increasing more expensive, the meals are getting worse, the waiter more arrogant and conceited, and it costs time, energy, and money to go there.
Also, they might screw up billing your credit card and charge you monthly for the next 18 years. If they want to. (Admittedly the analogy starting falling down here.)
Personally, at this point in my life I can understand not bothering with the restaurant any more. I have better things to do with my time and money.
Great post. What is the solution then? I see two :-
a. Spin plates (if you can) and stay unmarried
b. Find a grounded woman who wasn't pampered in her childhood and youth.
What are your thoughts?
[–]raob11 18 points19 points20 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
That's how you end up with the current situation in the Middle East.
[–]tomysotomayorfuxboys 33 points34 points35 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Subtract sex, porn, and masturbation and you have lots of angry young men looking to fuck shit up. I think general crime rates have dropped since the advent on the internet because so many disaffected young men now stay home jerking off to high speed porn rather than roaming the streets looking for trouble, the way they did in the 1980s, 1970s, and earlier.
[–]Endorsed ContributorRedBigMan 10 points11 points12 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Yeah it also coincides with smart decisions like unleaded gas and getting lead out of paint, etc... Lead fucks up the brain and makes people over time stupid and violent which is part of the reason why governments tried hard as hell to get that toxic metal reduced or eliminated so environmental exposure would be minimized as well.
[–]RedInIzzy 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Governments tried hard as hell
Not anymore. The last few years have proven scandalous as Chinese imports all seem to have lead in them.
[–]wanderer779 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
according to freakonomics the main factor was the ability of women to get abortions.
There's plenty of porn in the ME via the Internet.
[–]prodigyx[🍰] 27 points28 points29 points 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
You would just have a lot more angry, desperate japanese men. Porn is not the root of the issue by any means. Society can only shit on men for so long before they decide to opt out
[–]Senior Contributordr_warlock 12 points13 points14 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I say one of the root causes is their entertainment media, Anime. It always features beta manginas being tossed and bossed around by female authority figures. The men always tip toe around them, making sure not to offend. It's disgusting.
[–]Easih 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
no kidding; the series that always come to mind when people mention beta manga/anime is To love R U , jesus the guy is so pathetic.
Man I miss the days of Hokuto no Ken and animes like that.
It can work as a tool to enable their behavior.
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Eh, a desperate man can fap to a jcpenny's catalog if need be. It wouldn't solve too much without fixing the issues causing that addiction first.
[–]prodigyx[🍰] 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yeah but there will always be something. Even if you managed to completely eliminate pornography, there will always be prostitutes, massage parlors, anything to fill that need.
[–]Sdom1 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Porn? Hell, you can get a blowjob in Japan for like $30. They're called pink salons or something like that, and they're all over the place. Basically, blowjob bars where the chicks come in and blow you in rotation.
[–]Jokoran 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I don't think it's "female values," I think it's over-reliance on technology and increasing amounts of instant gratification. Japan is filled with replacements for everything, even love. In fact, Japan's new techno-love industry is basically killing their birthrate. Check this documentary out if you're interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxK-6s48kxg
You hear the same arguments about western culture, men don't want to get married because of peter pan syndrome, they don't want to man up, blah blah blah. The real cause is gynocentrism. Realizing how gynocentric our culture has always been was one of the last "aha" moments after taking the red pill.
[–]I_is_the_best 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's essentially MGTOW. They realize that the system is stacked against them and they give up.
[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
To say that Japan has allowed female values to take over is laughable. Japan is very male-centered society, from politics to labor and everything in between.
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Not really. In Japan they have a word for working themselves to death. How many women do you think have ever worked themselves to death? Thier version of the "white picket fence" life was getting married, having zero sex after a child was born (unless trying to have another child), working over 80 hours a week never getting to develope relationships with their children. Then there's a culture of workplace bullying that's kind of the default management style.
It's the same thing here, an extreme gynocentric culture and male disposability. It just manifest itself so differently.
[–]averageredpill 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This is the equivalent of the cat lady. For different reasons but still a social outcast. When you have a surplus of men, as much men as women, this happens.
[–]yummyluckycharms 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This has been going on for decades actually - started in 1989 or so when japan crashed, but reached its critical mass come mid to late 90's.
If you want to learn more about it, check out a great book called "shutting out the sun" - I think its on its 2nd or 3rd edition right now.
The main cause was a bad economy coupled with japans salary man culture, and hypergamy in japanese women = essentially a perfect storm which made it impossible to men to succeed.
To people sayng this isnt MGTOW - yes it is. Not all japanese mgtows lock themselves up in a room - some are called herbivores - they do everything that heteros do - just that they avoid women.
[–]The_Ralph 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Sounds close to the mouse experiment in the 1950s, which turned male mice into "the beautiful ones," perpetually, fastidiously, and psychotically self-grooming.
http://www.returnofkings.com/36915/what-humans-can-learn-from-the-mice-utopia-experiment
[–]1jimjackjoe 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
Hate to admit it, but all I could think when reading this article was, "man, can't believe nobody in Japan smokes." Taking a BR every 20 mins would be the perfect complement to a good ole two-year-long Hikikomori sesh.
[–]RPJapan 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
What? Japan is full of smokers. Come check out restaurants where the smoking section isn't even enclosed.
Or are you talking about weed?
[–]Senior ContributorMentORPHEUS 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
OP, time for what doctors and psychologists call "differential diagnosis."
What other aspects of Japanese culture (for instance, the concepts of honor and face) come to bear on this phenomenon?
Indeed, what do you know of Japanese culture, besides what's in this article?
Bottom line, I'm not convinced that this Japanese phenomenon is related or relevant to the problems of modern feminism in America and possibly Europe.
Worked in Japan off & on for several years actually.
Shame culture certainly is at the root of this problem IMO... That's what I took from the article and confirms my own experiences.
[–]Senior ContributorMentORPHEUS 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
OK, I appreciate the perspective. I do think its reaching to draw too-casual parallels from Japanese basement-dwellers to the effects of American feminists. Shaming is indeed a thing with feminists, but in American culture it is only effective on weaker, low self-esteemed people; usually college-aged. There is plenty of vocal pushback against the excesses of American feminists, who are a small subset of American culture. In Japan, do you see vocal pushback against the concepts of honor and shame, which are ingrained throughout almost all members of that society?
There was an entire anime about this epidemic. I used to actually be a similar equivalent to this where I would only do my work and go home.
It's a pretty fucking pathetic. And it's a weird reflection on the direction society is taking us.
Basically in order to escape this life style you have to help yourself out of it. But these men, they've never been taught anything about what it is to live a life and be a man. Women get taught what this means through regular doses of media, men don't get taught it anymore.
[–]Hennez 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I was going to point towards that same anime.
Good thing I saw your post first and I saw that anime just a few weeks before finding TRP last year. I was starting to walk down that road (well, not really the "shut myself in my bedroom" thing but you get the point).
This sums up the solution very well. Either you find a place like TRP or you have a RP aware guy who is willing to lend a hand. But the hard work is for you to do.
[–]Pathfinder24 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I feel like Japan has a disproportionately large amount of beta males.
More of them means more single girls in Japan for the taking. BRB, enjoying the decline.
Makes sense. Shouldn't they be receptive too though?
[–]alreadyredschool 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Relevant gwern: http://www.gwern.net/The%20Melancholy%20of%20Subculture%20Society
[–]Zeparic 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Someone should make a Japanese Red Pill. They're people who seem to take things to extremes. I wonder what they would do if given our knowledge. I wouldn't be surprised if something like this existed over there.
[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Amphibian reaction to toxins doesn't have a lot to do with skin breathing. Even humans breath through skin (lung skin), but we aren't affected as much because of stronger metabolism.
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