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[–]FireTempered 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link
My SIL is a hoarder type. Guaran-damn-tee you that #2 will not work. You are not learning from what has happened so far. Start now.
option #1 is your only option. It will be painful for her. She will make it painful for you. Prepare yourself for the battle of your life. This is a sleeping dragon. Once you awaken it, her push back will amaze you. If you are not ready to go the whole distance, do not start, you will lose - a lot. Most hoarders only respond to nuclear options. Much like any addiction. Maybe u/alphabeta49 will weigh in here. This is a much bigger problem than you think it is. Get ready and Good luck!
Edit - pick your battles here. You can chose to battle or not. Are you willing to risk the marriage over her hoard? Make that choice first.
[–]alphabeta49Red Beret2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I had a college girlfriend whose mom was an OC hoarder (and passed it on to her daughter, one of reasons the relationship ended). This mom slept on piles of clothes on their bed, and her husband had to sleep on the couch curled up next to boxes of jewelery. You couldn't open the front door because of boxes of shoes stacked to the ceiling. She drove them into tens of thousands of dollars worth of credit card debt. She was an anxious little woman. Always dressed well though... Oh, and her doormat husband enabled this. It took long-term, intense, personal counseling on both of their parts and financial counseling as a couple to get themselves out of the hole. Last I knew, they were almost ready to have family over for dinners and such, and their credit card debt was all but gone.
So, u/CasperTFG_808, if you hadn't mentioned over and over how your wife is obsessive compulsive, I'd say its just a matter of taking the lead and getting shit done. Fuck her and her shit.
But she collects this stuff because she subconsciously believes it's protecting her emotionally. There's some baggage from childhood there, completely bewildering to us, that tells her she needs this stuff in order to feel good about herself. Its the #1 lie of hoarders. The actual stuff isn't what matters, but its knowing that stuff is down there that makes her feel reassured.
Worst case scenario for option 1 is a full on meltdown, and possibly a psychotic break (here and here) if it hits her in the right spot. It might lead to the police getting involved, incarceration, or worse, death to you. I don't know your wife's mental health history, so I can't tell you what will happen. But that's the worst case scenario.
And you already know option 2 won't work, and you'll end up frustrated and going for option 1 anyway.
Best case scenario, and what I would recommend:
She knows the hoarding is an issue. She probably feels guilty about it, but doesn't know how to own her shit and figure herself out. You need to do a few things:
1: Take the lead and be firm. This means sitting her down, stating your concern, setting a date for the cleanup. Choose a date that is far enough in advance so she can mentally prepare for the "loss" (because to her it is likely going to make her feel vulnerable, like losing a security blanket). Make it clear that nothing will go into a fourth pile.
2: Make it official. Set the date. Call it "Progress Day" or something positive. Clear the schedule. Get balloons if you think it will help her celebrate the closing of that chapter of her life. Make it a "thing", be positive and patient, and don't get frustrated at her pushback and excuses.
3: Be supportive. Offer ahead of time to arrange a series of counseling sessions if she needs to process with a professional and get to the bottom of why she feels this way about her stuff. She could be dealing with deeply psychological childhood issues. It might be helpful.
You'll need lots of frame and "oak thoughts", but its possible that this could be a really good experience for both of you.
[–]CasperTFG_8080 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Be supportive. Offer ahead of time to arrange a series of counseling sessions if she needs to process with a professional and get to the bottom of why she feels this way about her stuff.
She has been seeing a counselor over her issues for a long time. She has figured out that her controlling and overprotective mother is what causes her to be so self centered and rebellious on a lot of things. Her mother (MIL) is a collector (not quite a hoarder) but is also a clean freak. MIL cleans the house every single day and although she hoards, things are in boxes labeled and stored away properly. My wife picked up the hoarding trait but rebelled against the cleaning trait. So piles of crap shoved into corners collecting dust and mice and who knows what.
MIL saved all of my wife's old dolls since she was a young girl. Luckily I had read enough about TRP a year ago to set up a boundary. When our daughter was born, her parents said that they pulled out boxes of wife's old dolls for us to take home. I put my foot down, "absolutely not, those were wife's toys and my daughter will have her own new toys to play with, we do not need these." MIL was not happy, telling me how much money they had spent on these dolls back in the day, blah blah blah. I turned it back on her, to let her know that her daughter married a man of means and I will provide for my family. We are flattered that she saved these for us but we respectfully refuse. End of story.
Note: MIL did sneak a few toys into our house and they were given away to another girl we know who is less fortunate. When MIL found out she was pissed but never pulled that shit again.
Okay Diatribe aside... We scheduled to see the Counselor together in 3 weeks. I am apprehensive of the mental break this shit might cause or whether I am just building this up in my head to be more of a big deal than what it is. My initial thoughts were If I just keep frame and throw all this shit out she won't become suicidal, but now I am thinking what if she becomes homicidal? I don't want to mess with crazy.
After reading all of your suggestions, I am thinking I introduce the concept of "Room to Dance Weekend" (give it a cheerful name). The weekend will be September 24th (one month away). That gives her one month to go through and sell what she wants to sell, and to mentally prepare. On September 14th we have our appointment scheduled with the Counselor. We use this session to talk about what is going to happen on "Room to dance weekend", and set ground rules.
[–]alphabeta49Red Beret1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If I just keep frame and throw all this shit out she won't become suicidal, but now I am thinking what if she becomes homicidal
That's why you don't just rip someone's security blanket away from them. You must have an attitude of gentleness and guidance, not pushing her but firmly and calmly strengthening your boundaries.
This is a good plan!
Here's something you must keep in mind. Like firetempered said, your wife essentially has an addiction. Addictions come usually as an attempt to fill an unmet need from childhood. When people with addictions are encouraged to get clean (in your wife's case, literally clean), they either go along with it or dig in their heels. I have seen hundreds of clients walk through my doors (intensive 90+ day treatment program) because they were too stubborn to get help when it was easy and consequently lost all support from family and friends. I often wonder what their families and friends experienced as they had to let their loved on hurt themselves.
Ultimately, you may need to distance yourself if this doesn't get better, or succumb to your wife's frame. I hope you don't succumb, but I've seen otherwise awesome men roll over for their wives.
If you can't live this way, and nothing changes for the better, you may have to consider separation or divorce. You're going to get lots of push back, not just from her but from nearly everyone else. "Come on, you're going to leave your wife over some boxes in the basement?" But if you have standards, stick to them. Don't apologize for them. Own them.
Good luck. Let us know how it goes. I'm curious.
[–]IASGame1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Agree with FireTempered.
If she is actually clinically a hoarder (whether she is diagnosed as such or not)...
Option 2 won't work.
Option 1 will work temporarily in terms of cleaning the basement, but there will be huge blow back. And it can come back worse.
This guy needs a Next or rock solid boundaries or that shit will eventually take over the rest of the house when the basement fills up. OP, do you have kids?
[–]filtereduser2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Yup. Listen to this guy. DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE HOW SERIOUS HOARDING IS. It's so fucked up it's borderline mental illness.
[–]A_RexRED KNIGHT3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
How bout option 3: you order the trailer on a weekend you know you'll both be around, tell her that's basement clean out day. Tell her that you expect her to help, or you'll take care of it yourself and throw out what you feel is garbage. She'll jump at the opportunity. Leading up to it, go down with her and tell her to separate shit out for trash. Here's how - you literally pick up each thing and say "trash, donate, or keep". Separate shit into piles. When trailer arrives, load up trash and donations and bring them to their respective places.
Also add your own shit to the piles.
Be a LEADER.
[–]CasperTFG_8083 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
Tried this in the past. The problem was there was a 4th pile added - the pile of I am not sure keep for now (Her OCD peaking).
Back when I tried this before my spirit was broken and I was a Beta fuckboy following her lead. Rather than argue with her 90% of the shit stayed. I am not sure I have matured enough as an Alpha to hold my frame and get through a weekend to do this.
[–]A_RexRED KNIGHT3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
Yep. Lead. Take the reigns from the outset. There is no pile number 4. Just the three, and you will force her to make a decision on every item that's not a no-brainer. Even better - limit your inquiry on items that do not belong in the house, ever. Old chair she's going to re-upholster that's been sitting there for 3 years untouched? You pick it up and say "trash or donate". Don't even offer keep as an option. If she gives you any shit, you stand there with a smirk and repeat "trash or donate". Classic broken record from WISNIFG
If you don't have the frame for this, or haven't finished the minimum sidebar reading, do that first. Maintaining frame and broken record from WISNIFG will be huge here. So will a lot of the other techniques.
[–]CasperTFG_8081 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Bonus, there only needs to be 2 piles, Keep or Trash.
We have a service where I live called 1-800-GOT-JUNK, you put everything you don't want in the bin. They go through the bin after they take it, sort out items to donate, items to recycle and items to trash.
She may want a 3rd pile of items to sell, but is she really going to get to posting and selling shit? Example we have a brand new 3in1 printer that we could get cash for but for a year it's been sitting NIB in the basement.
[–]A_RexRED KNIGHT1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
She may want a 3rd pile of items to sell, but is she really going to get to posting and selling shit?
Read this again, then tell me what's wrong with it. This is a good teaching moment.
[–]rpnow0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Don't miss this /u/CasperTFG_808
[–]CasperTFG_8080 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Confused... teaching for me or for her...
I am but a new grasshopper myself still learning and looking for MRP guidance.
Teaching lesson for her by throwing away things that she thinks she could sell but hasn't?
She is a preteen and I have told her over and over to clean her room but she hasn't. Would I go into my preteens room unannounced and just throw crap away? Not my parenting style, what I would and have done is to tell them that on Saturday I'm going in their room and clearing it out so they better put away what they want to keep.
to add: I obviously need to hurry up and finish reading NMMNG so that I can read and finish WISNIFG before the big purge. Luckily I am flying a lot for work over the next few weeks. Plenty of time to do that.
[–]rpnow0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The teaching moment is for you and all of us reading this.
You missed it. Do what A_Rex said, and then you will find your way grasshopper.
[–]A_RexRED KNIGHT0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
No. A teachable moment for you.
Do not leave it to her to get around to posting shit online and selling it - take charge and you sell stuff that should be sold (as opposed to thrown/given away). The Captain does what he needs to do. Lead by example.
[–]CasperTFG_8080 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Makes so much sense. Thanks
[–]FireTempered 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Back when I tried this before my spirit was broken and I was a Beta fuckboy following her lead. Rather than argue with her 90% of the shit stayed.
That's because she was playing to keep her stuff. You tried to be nice and she will kill you with it. This is more than just cleaning out the basement,……you are trying to take away things that she cannot imagine losing. She will never play fair - lose that thought. MRP doesn't cure addictions…...
[–]stonepimpletilists 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
If I do #1, then I am doing her work for her, cleaning up her mess for her, and feeding into her OC personality.
Considering you're the one who doesn't want to hoard, it doesn't sound like it's her work.
If you want something, go get it. If you want her to reflect your wishes, then you have to be the example. Right now you are the nag
You are right. She doesn't care that the basement is a disaster I do.
Do I let her know it's happening on X date to give her the opportunity to deal with shit herself or just surprise her.
Part of me wants to surprise her with a bin showing up on the driveway but I realize I only want to do that to be a dick and think I am teaching her a lesson.
If she helps I know she will want to keep more than I will allow.
[–]stonepimpletilists 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
surprise her
you mean with that thing she doesn't want, doesn't bother to do, and fights you on it? That will end well, I guarantee.
I only want to do that to be a dick and think I am teaching her a lesson.
Often used in here That'll show her!
I mean, I'm so glad you pushed for me to do this thin you wanted babe, thank you for pointing out the stupid hoarder I am and showing me the error of my ways. Would you like an appreciation blowjob for your troubles?
Do you see this playing out? And don't forget, you've allowed 100% of it right now, so your standards are shit, your boundaries are shit, so far your hamster is the strongest part of you.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Well, then what about "this shit is a health / safety hazard, and unless you pare it down significantly it's going into off-site long term storage and the monthly cost of that is coming out of your checking account / your monthly budget so good luck getting lunch out with the girls every week"?
[–]sh0ckley0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I've handled similar situations recently but it wasn't for clutter. I did ok being recent. You are the one who wants it done so you'll have to lead but do not just do it all yourself.
2 is not gonna happen because AWALT
1 as you describe it is overly controlling. Give your first mate the option to participate if she is willing. Once she sees you taking the lead, she will likely want to participate but will be a bitch about it and make it much more complicated than it needs to be because AWALT. Look at her behavior as a fun game of obstacles on hard mode and make damn sure you are rested and mentally ready to tackle it.
If you were like me then it will be even more difficult because she will rightfully be afraid of a covert contract and emotional paybacks that I used to retaliate with. Digging out of a hole is hard work.
She's first mate. Let her know ahead of time when you've scheduled the pick up.
Take her opinions into consideration and then make a decision for her only if she cannot make one herself. Guide. Lead. Be strong. Choose your battles and be honest only with yourself. Yes I know. This would not be easy for me right now either. Consider if you're truly ready for this situation - you might be but only you know the answer.
Some of your problems are in your mind and might lessen once you tell her that you've scheduled the pickup. Then you'll have new challenges of course.
[–]Countpudyoola 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
/u/A_Rex has probably the best response, less likely to encur tests.
I on the other hand have no problem being an asshole if someone's going to make me be an asshole.
So I could tell you what I would do (and this is a complete theoretical as my wife is the one who will throw away anything sitting in the same place for a week).
I'd let her know she's got a week to get anything she wants out before it's chunked.
Then I'd chunk the rest. Organize the basement and the first item that appeared that was junk it'd have a week to find a proper home or get chunked (have a little contest with yourself on how long it'll take for something new to show up).
Best way to take care of a pile is make sure it doesn't start in the first place.
[–]youcantdenythat0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
When I had to do this I took all the crap I thought was useless out to the curb for the trash guy. After I was done I told her what I did and that if she wanted to keep anything, she needed to go out there and sort through it and bring it back into the house and put it away.
The point was that it required effort on her part for anything she wanted to keep. The only time I would help is if it was furniture or something that was literally too hard for her to move. And she would need to convince me that keeping that furniture was a good idea.
Done that before in smaller amounts. She went and brought "Everything" back in. This is why I am thinking it needs to be dealt with as a mental health issue.
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[–]FireTempered 4 points5 points6 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]alphabeta49Red Beret2 points3 points4 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]CasperTFG_8080 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]alphabeta49Red Beret1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]IASGame1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]filtereduser2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]A_RexRED KNIGHT3 points4 points5 points (11 children) | Copy Link
[–]CasperTFG_8083 points4 points5 points (10 children) | Copy Link
[–]A_RexRED KNIGHT3 points4 points5 points (8 children) | Copy Link
[–]CasperTFG_8081 point2 points3 points (7 children) | Copy Link
[–]A_RexRED KNIGHT1 point2 points3 points (5 children) | Copy Link
[–]rpnow0 points1 point2 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]CasperTFG_8080 points1 point2 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]rpnow0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]A_RexRED KNIGHT0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]CasperTFG_8080 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]FireTempered 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]stonepimpletilists 0 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]CasperTFG_8080 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]stonepimpletilists 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
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[–]sh0ckley0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Countpudyoola 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]youcantdenythat0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]CasperTFG_8080 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link