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[–][deleted] 6 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
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[–]_HughMyronbrough_ 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
Reposted from elsewhere in thread:
I personally know about 10 dudes who got into PUA stuff. This was 8-10 years ago, during its heyday, and they knew about Mystery, RSD, Mark Manson, etc.
None of them really got anything out of it. Years later, the majority of them are married/LTR to a woman they met thru work/social circle. Some are incels.
I'm not a pickup artist or dating advice guy (no I take that back, a few Mexican moms at my clinic asked me why their "son is 26 and hasn't had a girlfriend yet"...I'm not sure why they think a physician would be useful there), but I would tell men to focus on their careers and getting fit, rest will work itself out.
[–]Moderatorrecyclablebanthas 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
1
I personally know about 10 dudes who got into PUA stuff. This was 8-10 years ago, during its heyday, and they knew about Mystery, RSD, Mark Manson, etc. None of them really got anything out of it. Years later, the majority of them are married/LTR to a woman they met thru work/social circle.
None of them really got anything out of it. Years later, the majority of them are married/LTR to a woman they met thru work/social circle.
I mean, if they landed in a marriage or LTR, even if that is/was with someone from work or social circle, that requires some degree of "game." Game covers any use of social skills to get laid or start a relationship.
Sidenote: if they got into pick up, then being in a long-term relationship would have also required them possibly having to beat addiction to validation from new sex partners that PUAs often have to struggle with if they figure out any amount of game.
2
Some are incels.
If they never got laid, then getting in to pick up didn't help, I guess.
3
I'm not a pickup artist or dating advice guy (no I take that back, a few Mexican moms at my clinic asked me why their "son is 26 and hasn't had a girlfriend yet"
That could be a couple things. Like maybe they just assume that someone successful professionally will also have their love lives in order.
Of course, that's not necessarily true.
Also, getting fit and your job in order won't necessarily fix one's love life. It's perhaps necessary, but not sufficient.
[–]_HughMyronbrough_ 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
1) I guess my point was that there appeared to be no relationship between their brief and unsuccessful PUA forays and their years-later success in marrying a decent woman. Of course, if their PUA stint taught them useful transferable skills to the workplace or relationships, that is a good thing. And perhaps it did (at least, one of them told me it did).
3) Right. Nothing guarantees success, but a lot can shift the game in your favor. Moving from Abilene to Houston does that. Getting buff does that. Having money and a decent career does that. And so on.
But what bugs me about the PUA stuff is that it looks for the hardest way to do things. Eg I see this stuff about accosting women on the street (“daygame”) and I wonder how useful it is. The guys I know who get laid a ton are tall/white/buff guys who focus mostly on nightclubs and their social circles. If I told one of them to go up to women on the street he’d probably think I was psychotic.
Why not retool your focus to look for easier ways?
[–]bforbrilliant 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I think meeting women in the day time is a valuable skill. What if you don't drink or are not into the club scene and are looking for one who doesn't drink?
What if loud music gets in the way of you talking to women? I found I tended to withdraw in clubs as the music drowned any attempt at chatting with a girl and I can't do everything non verbally
[–]_HughMyronbrough_ 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I can’t think of a single couple I know that met that way.
[–]Moderatorrecyclablebanthas 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think meeting women in the day time is a valuable skill.
It is. Though it's helpful to realize that meeting women in the daytime is not some special skill.
We're talking about social interactions here. Seduction is not magic.
The core skill set we're talking about here is active listening, paying attention, and confidence.
Those skills are things you might use in a variety of interactions, not simply while trying to get a date.
What if you don't drink or are not into the club scene and are looking for one who doesn't drink?
Social interactions can be had in many different kinds of places. There are social groups that meet (under non-pandemic circumstances, anyway). There are groups organized under various activities, like travel, dancing, hiking, etc.
What if loud music gets in the way of you talking to women?
This is a fundamental and common misunderstanding about how social interactions work.
Clubs are built around loud music and dancing. People who go there, particularly the women, are looking for fun revolving around those things.
So when guys walk up trying to have a verbal interaction in a place where everyone is focused on the FUN of dancing and the music, they're missing the point, unintentionally.
The ones having the most fun in a place like that, are usually not even bothering with much verbal interaction for most of the early going. The place is about non-verbal interaction. Facial expressions, gestures, dancing, having fun, etc.
4
I found I tended to withdraw in clubs as the music drowned any attempt at chatting with a girl......
The unintentional faux pau here is that trying to open people by chatting with them in a place like that, is like trying to walk up to someone at a LAN party who's in the middle of a match, taking off their headphones, and trying to talk with them about something unrelated.
Doing that makes you stand out as not being in the same state of mind as them. They're often there trying to have fun, dance, etc. So some dude is like, "Hey, how are you doing?" and it'll come off as them being really out of touch.
As opposed to a dude who's dancing and smiling, and goofing off with them, offering fun.
5
....and I can't do everything non verbally
You don't need to do "everything." It's really not magic.
It starts with paying attention and actively listening. And in a place like a club, you simply shouldn't even bother going unless you actually like the music and like dancing.
If you aren't comfortable dancing, then the question is whether you would like to learn or not if you think the idea is fun in theory.
These things can be learned. I wasn't comfortable with parties or clubs at all until I got to college and MADE myself take dance classes for a couple of years.
I guess my point was that there appeared to be no relationship between their brief and unsuccessful PUA forays and their years-later success in marrying a decent woman. Of course, if their PUA stint taught them useful transferable skills to the workplace or relationships, that is a good thing. And perhaps it did (at least, one of them told me it did).
I guess my point was that there appeared to be no relationship between their brief and unsuccessful PUA forays and their years-later success in marrying a decent woman.
Of course, if their PUA stint taught them useful transferable skills to the workplace or relationships, that is a good thing. And perhaps it did (at least, one of them told me it did).
I think I get what you are saying.
To clarify, I'm saying:
One big problem is that a lot of people view it as if seduction means some sort of process or tricks that allow or justify dudes escalating physically in a premature way that is creepy.
Right. Nothing guarantees success, but a lot can shift the game in your favor. Moving from Abilene to Houston does that. Getting buff does that. Having money and a decent career does that. And so on.
Well, if we're going to get specific here, there are two categories of factors in attraction:
Being buff, having money, having a good career.... those things don't necessarily help. If those things matter to a dude, then he should see to them.
But, whether those things resonate with a particular girl...... that can vary.
But what bugs me about the PUA stuff is that it looks for the hardest way to do things. Eg I see this stuff about accosting women on the street (“daygame”) and I wonder how useful it is.
Part of the problem is that we really have to define terminology here.
Side-note: I definitely see a lot of cringe in most daygame videos I see of guys cold approaching on the street, but it can be done well if someone is savvy enough. Take this guy:
So we can't even paint too broadly with daygame. It really depends on the social skills of the one doing it. The problem is that too many putting videos out are trying to brute force it and relying on editing out all the failures.
The guys I know who get laid a ton are tall/white/buff guys who focus mostly on nightclubs and their social circles. If I told one of them to go up to women on the street he’d probably think I was psychotic.
Nightclubs and social circles...... both make sense. But are also easier in some ways:
6
People definitely get into ruts based on what they're comfortable with.
As far as what constitutes "easier," though..... is trickier to establish sometimes.
Cold approach can be easy if one is observant and actively listening. (I'm not talking about the guys who go out and do 100 approaches rapid fire, or whatever.)
[–]fulltimevibes -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Lol, why would any of these pua companies exist if all you had to do was focus on your career and get fit? Absolute bullshit I'm afraid x
[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I agree. Millionaires and billionaires arent getting laid because of their social skills or their personalities. $$$$$$$$$$
[–][deleted] 6 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 40 points41 points42 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I see your POV. Don't forget a lot of people have a lot of different backgrounds. Some men are legitimately afraid of women and tremble at the thought of a conversation.
It's easy to generalize, but having been a mentor (no I wasnt charging people I just enjoyed teaching and helping) I've seen that some dudes had awesome personalities but didnt know in the slightest what to do w a women.
I've seen a lot of socially adequate guys lose opportunities because of their lack of knowledge with this. IOIs (hints) soaring over their head and them thinking the girl wasnt interested while shes literally screaming "ask me for my number' kind of situations.
Part of pickup/ seduction is actually focusing on not being a creep too. It's more common to find naturally creepy guys than to find guys who learned to be creepy via game, because essentially if they're playing right it shouldnt come across as creepy.
TL/DR people think players are creeps because creeps want to learn how to play, essentially wanting to learn how to not be creeps. Convoluted haha.
[–]erect_sean 9 points10 points11 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I agree with this. I think there are levels to learning to flirt with women, the goal is to get to be a guy with an attractive lifestyle but part of that involves being able to talk to women and personally I find that cold approach/ talking to girls at bars works best. Having said that at some point you have to let go of that when your social skills are good enough and focus on other areas of your lifestyle. The process won’t be the same for everyone because as you said everyone is different and has a unique background.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's like learning to sell a product. There are good ways of showing people you have value without explicitly saying "hey I'm a catch, you should go out with me" which ironically, even if that were the case, would DQ you as a potential suitor
[–]le_GoogleFit 5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
they teach men to be weirdo cold approachers instead of just teaching them to be handsome attractive guys.
Honestly it's possible to do both at the same time. You can work on yourself etc while at the same time hitting the bars/clubs on the weekends, approaching and meeting women there.
I don't think it has to be one or the other.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Again, having been a mentor in the community, when I would go out with someone to teach him how to talk and socialize i couldn't tell this 5'5 dude to just be handsome and attractive. Lifes not fair and that dudes needed some type of strategy, seeing that most women wount approach first unless the guys at LEAST 6'0
[–]_HughMyronbrough_ -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
Heh, I'm 6'0" and I've never been approached. I'm also brown though.
I gave up on trying dating and am now getting engaged via arranged marriage (I encourage brown men to follow this path). For other men, I encourage them to seek women abroad if America isn't working out.
When I talk to men and women about dating, I don't think I've met anyone who said "wow I'm so excited to be single and be on the market"! Instead, people leaving relationships (again, both men and women) act as if they're going to the Western Front.
[–][deleted] 10 points11 points12 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
While I disagree that cold approaches are weird I think that most guys here don’t know how to make it not weird. Cold Approaching has been apart of American culture for generations and works for many I think it’s a great tool to build guys confidences and make them want to improve themselves.
Though you are very correct worthwhile relationships mostly come from creating prior bonds through friends, work etc.
[–]deathray-toaster 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I bet improving the self image is a good way to remove the fear of flirting with women. Which to be honest, is my personal goal. I don't aim to bang a ton of chicks before i finally settle down and marry, but i'm a pervert so i won't mind getting laid every once in a while. What i really want is to be comfortable around women, and to find someone who'll like me as much as i will like her.
[–]VDKay 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
The focus is all off on places like this, men should not be learning "seduction" and how to be "pick up artists", they should be learning how to build a life that hot girls genuinely want to be a part of.
Well, this depends on what someone is trying to achieve. A 25yo scrawny WoW dude who has never gotten laid has different targets than a regular dude who has some experience with approaching women. The former is trying to get a GF, the later is trying to up his game and get hotter and/or better quality women. Since this place is so broad, both should be welcome here and both should be able to gain some insights and opinions. So, instead of saying "we should be teaching this" or "we should be teaching that", let's all share our opinions and try to be helpful to fellow men. The basics are essentially the same, and they do NOT include money, career, or a chiseled body (unless, maybe, for top-tier celebrities).
Women wanted to be a part of the lifestyle I was offering and I was going to events and places with hot girls, having quality moments, and meeting hot women as a result of my lifestyle rather than being some guy that showed up spam approaching like a weirdo
Yes, indeed, but you wouldn't have a clue on how to actually talk to women while avoiding being a weirdo if you haven't spammed that earlier. This is communicating the wrong message: it is not "I started working on myself and my quality of life and thus I met hotter women" but rather "I knew how to approach effectively, but then I worked on the things in my life where girls could also be part of, so I ended up being able to keep around better-quality girls who had higher standards".
IMO, the biggest problem most men face (including myself) is that, in this modern society, we learn to flirt in extremely inefficient ways (because of political correctness and feminism, but let's not get into that). People are afraid of looking like weirdos, they avoid talking to strangers and they literally shiver at the thought of turning a conversation sexual. All these go against what women are actually biologically programmed to respond to.
So, indeed there is a tradeoff between working on your own quality of life (and thus the quality of life/emotions you can offer to a girl) and on learning how to approach and communicate this quality of life.
My rule of thumb is this: Every time you are wondering if in order to have a better-quality girl you should either approach more or work on yourself, ask yourself this: "Do I know any dude (personally, not through social media) who is at the same or worse level at that X area than me, but who has a GF (or has woo'd a girl) of around the same quality as the girl I want to approach?" If the answer is yes, then you don't need any more self-improvement. And even if the answer is "no", maybe you still don't need any more self-improvement as you could be having other more important qualities overshadowing that which you lack.
and the 2nd rule: If she is a total stranger, the previous rule does not even apply because you don't know her. So best bet is to just approach
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Seeing you two discussing this topic really got me intrigued, as I am someone who is very green in the seduction department. I want to learn but not to be some alpha dog or to flex, so it really nice to see someone who point out those who try to learn for self-improvement and those who try to be creepy
In y’all opinion, what is some good way to create a good vibe that invite other and not discourage them ?
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Can you be more specific as to what you mean by "invite other and not discourage them?"
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I guess like let say when you go out and meet someone for the first time. You would start out with a hello, follow by a small introduction. From there, how would you continue the ice breaking process?
I generally start most conversation, online or in real life, with the above format. But I also sometime feel that this approach makes people, not just women, feel bored- thus “discourage them” from engaging any further with the conversation.
Then there are “those people”- the one who show up at the party and already they got everyone attention. Whatever subject they speak, they would get everyone to be engaged.
So I guess my question is how to be the second person, not entirely but enough so that I won’t make every conversation feel colder than the freezer?
[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
1st: focus on yourself- make sure you're enjoying yourself and having a good time, good vibes are infectious/ same goes for bad vibes
2nd: learn to be interested in people's lives, ask questions about them, their lives stories, and what makes them them
3rd: practice practice practice- keep socializing with strangers, all strangers, men and women. The more comfortable you get with taking to strangers the smoother you're conversational skills will come across as.
Side note: don't focus too hard on not being an alpha, a pushover is equally as boring to talk to as an egomaniac.
Side note2: you don't have to start with formalities "hey man, awesome tie!!!"
[–]Bdog5k 5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
This is coming from someone that was in a really bad spot. Young, overweight, and awkward as hell. It was quite pathetic and I hated myself.
I wanted to be in a better spot. So I have improved my health, style, got into hobbies, started reflecting on how I act, and am working towards a career. Actually being a better man.
For some reason instead of working to improve themselves so that people want to be around them, people would rather dump time into learning elaborate ways to trick people into wanting to be around them.
Do you. If it ain’t enough, do you better.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I was the same way, young over weight and awkward then I started to lean out and goto the gym then when I started reading up on game it helped me learn how to be socially adequate and not be a pushover
[–]Bdog5k 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I mean some stuff definitely helps. But I feel like I get the most out of the advice that generally says to value yourself higher, and don’t obsess over other people.
Idk if that fits game or if it’s like “ be a man” advice. Game feels like a mix of advice for interaction and psychopathic manipulation. The latter seems toxic.
[–]Goldenpanda18 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
An author said:
"The bigger the industry is around a self help topic, the more people are struggling to accomplish those goals"
In other words, there is no one way of how to be confident, approach women, get fit.
There's so many ways and guides but there isn't a definite solution. If there was wouldn't we all be confident, fit and have 0 problems approaching women?
[–]_HughMyronbrough_ 5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
If I may, I personally know about 10 dudes who got into PUA stuff. This was 8-10 years ago, during its heyday, and they knew about Mystery, RSD, Mark Manson, etc.
[–][deleted] 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Natures way of thinking out the socially inadequate potential suitors
Nah, remember most guys aren't super online like us. They don't know or care much about feminism or MeToo.
[–][deleted] 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
You're, without a doubt, over generalizing.
The message gets skewed, you acting like the answer is simple. The common media-sponsered mantra towards women is "dont use a woman for her looks, like her for her personality"
Then guys are like alright sounds fair I'll like them for them and they'll like me for me, which couldn't be further than the truth for about 60-80% of women. Seeing that women arent attracted to shy men (which IS the natural response when attempting to talk to women having no background in it) and they end up simping (without understanding the implications and consequences)
which leads to a perpetual cycle of being used, hurt, confused and eventually turning to game and seduction communities: "help, I bought her flowers and bought her dinner then she ghosted me after saying how good of a FRIEND I am!!"
Then you step in: yOu kNoW tHe AnSwEr. Mf if they knew the answer they wouldn't be here asking for the answer.
[–]Torch1999 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The problem is thanks to the media, even guy (me included) who are doing all they can to become the best and most attractive version of themselves, meet people they like and have a fun time - are regarded as "manipulators".
Like f no, what idiot would say that someone who works legitimately on themselves (and wants to meet new people in a non try hard and positive way) is a manipulator and a bad person.
Yet that's the world we live in..
[–]Mr_82 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Agreed, I actually downvoted that guy because it seemed like he was making a dogwhistle for people to shit on this sub and men in general. The fact that others look to attack this sub is misandry on its own.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Thank you both for the wonderful lessons I will learn this by heart and practice it till I can be natural not superficial
Keep practicing. It will feel socially awkward at first. That's how you know it's working.
[–]NocAdsl 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
i dont even know why the fuck im here :D i haven't talked to a girl in years :D sorry pep, im out :) gl
[–]yaboyyyyt 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Seduction isn’t an inherently sexist pursuit, but a lot of the guys on the subreddit are mad sexist and see women as objects, like a nightstand with a fleshlight duct taped to it that can reject them. But I also see a lot of really great advice on here that could just be applied to approaching people and holding their interest in general. This is basically r/masteringconversationwithwomen, but some dudes like to make seduction look like a magic trick you need to learn through
I got bored of writing tl;dr I agree
[–]Marvinkmooneyoz 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Thats not even why it has a bad wrap. It has a bad wrap because a) women dont want to beleive that that is how their attraction works and b) they dont like when less good-looking/pre-selected/socially capable men try to seduce them. In fact they hate it.
[–]Weretfdidmyaccountgo 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Factually wrong buddy
[–]missmagicmouth 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Oh yay. How's the seduction going with that attitude?
What's your point
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
This was a screenshot of a now removed post on this sub and is why people talk trash about the people here. Not saying this is everyone, or even the majority. But stuff like this is an example. . this garbage person
"... they sell their souls" yeah that's really f*cked
And that sort of stuff is most of what people see.
[–]SteroidsFreak -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Eh, I can see things from both perspectives. If you were literally offended then maybe work on yourself instead of worrying about what others think about you. We can take what he said as a motivational speech or attach oneself to being pathetic. This is the part you decide what your fate or outcome will look like. Making a post about this, just proves what he said triggered you.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
Nice try but Im not offended or triggered, I'm A: calling someone out on their bullshit for shit talking people coming here that are clueless about seduction and B: simultaneously letting people know that it's okay to ask questions.
2nd, his message wasn't even targeted towards me, I have a solid grasp on this stuff therefore (according to dickheads definition of pathetic) he wasn't taking about me.
If you have a solid understanding of seduction, you can do one of 3 things 1: help people in this sub who don't 2: just read the sub and not say anything 3: talk down to people to are in this sub just to give you a feeling of superiority.
You can guess which ones the real pathetic asshole.
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I don't think most of the advice in seduction forums, or books is that helpful. Most of it is common sense and a numbers game.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Common sense is subjective, not everyone's thought processes are on the same page.
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