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Pro-female and anti-male biases are more influential than race and other factors in Implicit Association Tests

big_meats93

March 28, 2023
169 upvotes
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
https://www.psypost.org/2023/03/pro-female-and-anti-male-biases-are-more-influential-than-race-and-other-factors-in-implicit-association-tests-74335
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Title Pro-female and anti-male biases are more influential than race and other factors in Implicit Association Tests
Author

big_meats93

Upvotes 169
Comments 34
Date March 28, 2023 10:39 AM UTC
(3 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/124kj8w/profemale_and_antimale_biases_are_more/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/pro-female-and-anti-male-biases-are-more.1207678
https://theredarchive.com/post/1207678
Top posts by big_meats93

Did ya'll see this? Wish I could do a cross post!

1 upvotes
March 28, 2023
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates

Comments

[–]big_meats93[S] 46 points47 points48 points 3 years ago* (29 children) | Copy Link

The pool group of participants "were from nearly 6,000 individuals", and multiple studies on different groups within that pool using slightly different tactics were done. They repeatedly came up with results that indicated, over other demographic traits - race, class, age - people are "implicitly" biased with gender the most - specifically, negatively towards males, and positively towards females.

Many today would assume based on the reality presented in our media that inclinations based on or against race is in fact the most strong bias people hold, and that women would follow in close second in terms of being most biased against.

Implicit bias tests are supposed to measure "unconscious attitudes" (from the article) - "Implicit Association Tests (IATs) are a type of psychological tool designed to measure implicit biases (unconscious attitudes) that people may hold towards certain social groups or concepts. IATs typically involve participants quickly categorizing stimuli, such as words or images, into different categories using a computer keyboard or mouse. The basic idea behind the test is that people will be faster and more accurate when categorizing stimuli that are more closely associated in their minds, compared to stimuli that are less closely associated."

There are some arguments about the validity of these tests (wikipedia), but it seems generally (as to be expected) folks don't like them when they don't indicate what they want to believe about the population's biases- and do like them when they do. A short google search reveals other studies using the tests have previously indicated other factors as being more prevalent in people's biases. The novelty of this particular study is that it indicated gender and specifically men were the most biased against (interestingly, it also highlighted a bias against "lower class" (poor) people, which I also don't see talked about much elsewhere).

What I don't recall seeing in the article is speculation as to why this particular study revealed this bias, and other previous ones using IATs hadn't. Were the others simply not even considering it as a possibility, and not testing for it? Maybe someone can answer this.

I tried posting this earlier here as a link to a then ongoing reddit thread on r/science, which reached about 3.5k views and then was taken down by the mods. There was some conflict with anti-brigading rules here and I went to sleep for a while. Anyways,

It was generating some conversation there in the comments, with a lot being removed. Then it was taken down- the eventual comment left by mods at r/science say it was taken down because the research is more than 6 months old. I personally can't find anything indicating that. The journal article linked to on the American Psychological Association's website says it's not publicly available until May, and the study itself seems to me to be dated 2023 (and we are still only in March).

Connor, P., Weeks, M., Glaser, J., Chen, S., & Keltner, D. (2023). Intersectional implicit bias: Evidence for asymmetrically compounding bias and the predominance of target gender. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 124(1), 22–48. https://doi.org/10.1037/pspa0000314

Just thought it was interesting. Threads like that in real time are a way to see these kinds of biases play out in the comments (and what even eventually happens to the thread- seems you can't even talk about this stuff). You can see it in "View discussion in other 4 communities" under this post. Apparently it had also been posted and removed before, nobody seems to have challenged the over 6 month old thing either time (can you even challenge the almighty reddit mods or respond to those comments?). Maybe I'm wrong though, anyone want to correct me? Doesn't seem over 6 months old...

What do ya'll think? Seems some of the men in the comments of that thread were reacting like, "no, duh", and I'm sure that's how this article would probably make many of you feel. Thought I should post it anyways.

In the article, it reads:

When I discuss this work with people, their reaction is often to ask if others within the academic community have responded negatively to the results,” Connor added. “And I understand the question, because ever since I started doing this work, I have felt some trepidation about sharing the results. But I have to say that virtually everyone, from editors, to peer reviewers, to academic audiences, has been genuinely receptive and willing to engage thoughtfully with these data, even if they might be surprising or run counter to some people’s priors. It has been a very welcome and pleasant surprise.”

So apparently- at least in according to this article- the consciousness is changing somewhat in the scientific and academic community. Not so on r/science or reddit at large.

edits: articulation

[–]worthwhilewrongdoing 19 points20 points21 points 3 years ago* (24 children) | Copy Link

What I don't recall seeing in the article is speculation as to why this particular study revealed this bias, and other previous ones using IATs hadn't. Were the others simply not even considering it as a possibility, and not testing for it? Maybe someone can answer this.

I don't have access to the actual article, but from the looks of the abstract this appears to be a meta-analysis of five different studies. It's possible that the math showed different things when all five studies were mashed together than when each study was viewed on its own and/or it's possible that in each of those studies gender or race may have been handled differently - it's hard to say without being able to read what they've done methodologically.

The original is here. If anyone has institutional access and can get me the study, I will happily translate it out of academic-ese and tell you!

Whether or not IATs are a bunch of nonsense is another issue entirely. They certainly feel a lot like bullshit science to me, but my Reddit hot take on them (fascinating as I'm sure the world finds it 🤣) of course isn't exactly the same as someone with research credentials weighing in here. I'll try to research this more when I have time, try to see how the scholarship seems to feel about them in general, and get back to this.

[–]big_meats93[S] 5 points6 points7 points 3 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

I think people have a problem with them mostly in recent times when they are used to talk about "unconscious racism", in the vein of White Fragility and the like. Even if you don't think you're racist and don't ever do or say racist things, you're actually probably secretly racist inside deep down (if you're white), and you should ultimately feel like shit about it all the time. Because it's implicit as opposed to explicit.

That said, enough explicit stuff goes on that the idea of implicit bias I feel like pales in comparison of importance... it's just that when something is a scientific study, folks tend to react differently as opposed to just a smattering of statistics posted by some rando. A big science article has the weight and authority of the priesthood of scientific orthodoxy stamped on it.

[–]AskingToFeminists 3 points4 points5 points 3 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

From what I gathered about IATs, they're mostly BS. They measure reaction speed, which in itself is already an issue, because depending on how sleepy you are that day, your performances may vary widely, which is an issue one repeatability in itself. And the differences in reaction speed on which they base themselves is in 10s of milliseconds, IIRC, so a fraction of batting an eye. And when it comes to repeatability, it seems that when someone takes the same test two days in a row, they can even be "measured" to have radically opposite "biases". And what is not clear is what exactly they measure. Because it might just be unfamiliarity, instead of bias.

Basically, it seems a bit like homeopathy : the idea might sound good, until you actually look at the detail.

IIRC, even the people originally behind IATs said that they were used out of scope compared to what they are supposed to be, and don't prove what most people claim they prove.

So, I tend to take anything with IAT in it with a huge grain of salt, as they might be saying exactly what the researcher wanted them to be saying.

[–]Poly_and_RA 5 points6 points7 points 3 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

They measure reaction speed, which in itself is already an issue, because depending on how sleepy you are that day, your performances may vary widely, which is an issue one repeatability in itself.

That's too critical of a view. They don't measure speed and accuracy but instead differences in speed and accuracy based on how you're asked to sort along two distinct axes.

The idea is that brains have an easier time with putting in the same bin concepts that are associated in the brain.

So if someone has an association between blackness and crime in their brain then they'll find sorting-1 here to be a bit easier to do than sorting-2

  1. Black people and crimes go left, white people and kindness go right.
  2. Black people and kindness go left, white people and crime go right.

(obviously with randomizing things like the sequencing of the questions and which things go in which bin)

It's true that you won't get identical results if you run the same test on multiple days, but you will tend to get fairly similar results. (you can try it yourself online if you like, there's lots of these things online)

[–]worthwhilewrongdoing 6 points7 points8 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

My issue with them personally - and again, I'm no expert, I just have a BA in psych - is that it's a bit of a leap to go from "these things take a repeatable and statistically measurable amount of time to go together and that this likely means something" to "these go together and this indicates implicit bias in the individuals for which the measurements can be made."

The latter requires a very particular idea of how the mind works and a lot of very particular preconceptions that, while looking intuitive and logical on the surface, may or may not be rooted in the best science. When doing quantitative science like this, it's very important that you stick to things you can prove - and I feel like a lot of the inferences made by IATs wander way out of that territory way too eagerly.

[–]big_meats93[S] 4 points5 points6 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for your input. Despite the likelihood that IATs are BS, I thought reddit's reaction to and ultimate shutting down of an exploding post about anti-male bias, claiming the research was over six months old as grounds was also interesting in and of itself.

Nobody seems to have taken up the part of my long-ass OP comment on whether or not it's actually over six months old, though. Everything I could find with my didn't-go-to-college mind tells me it's not.

[–]worthwhilewrongdoing 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I don't have time to respond to this like I'd like, but I just want to say that college is severely overrated. :)

[–]big_meats93[S] 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for the sentiment haha

It seems the study is over six months old after all!

https://psyarxiv.com/qry4b/

[–]AskingToFeminists 4 points5 points6 points 3 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

It's true that you won't get identical results if you run the same test on multiple days, but you will tend to get fairly similar results.

I'm not even certain that this has been proven, and even then, from what I remember you can have people getting diametrically opposed results two different times' which male the reliability of it questionable.

Then, like I said, there's the question of what is actually measured. To go from "people have an ease at associating these things" to "this means unconscious bias" is quite a leap of logic whom, IIRC even the initial creator of the IAT questions the legitimacy of using his tests for.

From what I remember, the attempts to demonstrate that differences in reaction speed translate into different behaviors have failed to be conclusive.

So, like I said, it's a bit like homeopathy : it might seem like a good idea until you go into the details.

[–]Poly_and_RA 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

You don't have to just guess about these things, you can look up what the science actually say about this.

Test-retest reliability of IAT-tests typically show a pretty strong repeatability, strong enough that conclusions about this on group-levels are valid, though not strong enough that a single test should be taken as conclusive proof of the attitudes of a single individual.

Here's what a meta-study built on 58 other studies that examined this concludes:

The IAT’s average test–retest reliability is adequate for studies that assess correlations of IAT measures with other measures or for studies that test hypotheses about group differences or experimental treatment differences in mean IAT scores. However, test–retest reliability is not adequate to justify treating a single IAT observation as accurately diagnostic of an individual’s attitude, stereotype, identity, or self-esteem. Notwithstanding, one can create an IAT measure that is adequately diagnostic for single persons by repeating IAT measurements, much as is routinely done in research using blood pressure measures.

(source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9170636/)

The latter part is a good comment. Test-retest repeatability of measuring blood-pressure is fairly low too; low enough that a single measurement that shows your blood-pressure is high isn't necessarily enough for a diagnosis on an individual level. But that by itself doesn't mean blood-pressure measurements in aggregate aren't a useful diagnostic tool.

Yes sure, IAT-tests measure only association, they can show for example that people do tend to associate science with men and nursing with women. But they can't show what consequence these associations have in the form of behaviour.

Though we're talking about psychology and personal attitudes and prejudices go. As these fields go, IATs are both well-documented, well-supported and reliable. If your standard of evidence is high enough that you're not willing to consider IATs valid, then frankly there's not much in psychology that DOES pass muster.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/11/psychologys-replication-crisis-real/576223/

[–]AskingToFeminists 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Interesting. I'll have to read that. I'm willing to accept the IATs actually measure something.

I'm still rather skeptical on the claim that they actually measure bias, though. From what I remember, it wasn't clear that there was much correlation with the IATs and biased actions or attitudes.

[–]Poly_and_RA 5 points6 points7 points 3 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

There's good reason to be skeptical of that.

Thing is, since these are split-second timings, what's measured is your brains very first "knee-jerk" ("brain-jerk"?) reaction if you will. But we're thinking and reasoning beings, and we're NOT limited to only our first hunch in making judgements, we can also rationally evaluate things and come to conclusions.

And often, IAT-tests probably measure simply culture. For example IAT-tests show that people associate women (more than men) with nursing. That's not surprising in a world where probably 90% of nurses are in fact women. It doesn't necessarily mean that these people consider women to be better nurses, or hold negative prejudices about male nurses. Instead all it means is that a link between "woman" and "nurse" exists.

I think that's by itself interesting though. Even despite the fact that it's often just cultural inputs that you might not even agree with.

See, let's say you were to measure by way of IAT what associations exist between women, men, cruelty and kindness. Let's say you found that on the average people DO link women-kindness and men-cruelty more readily than the reverse linking.

If that's so, this has to come from somewhere. Sure, it's possible that as an individual, the person tested doesn't agree that women are kinder, or that men are more cruel; but if so where did the association come from? Do they for example perhaps live in a society that more often portray women as kind and men as cruel? Is there some other source of this link? 

The fact that the link exists, is interesting by itself. EVEN if people on an individual level would say "no" if asked whether they think women are kinder than men.

It's one piece of the puzzle of course. By itself it doesn't really prove anything important. But as part of a bigger picture, I think it's fair to say that research like this DOES throw considerable doubt on the oft-repeated and rarely-questioned assertion that we live in a society and culture that favor men by default.

Especially since there's many other experiments that come to similar conclusions. (for example the moral machine experiment shows that people in most countries have a modest preference for saving the life of a woman instead of the life of an equivalent man in a constructed scenario where they must choose one of the two)

[–]big_meats93[S] 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Really great comment. I suppose any possible validity in what this study might show is why it felt like kind of a crime for the post to be removed from r/science not once but twice before it could go on to generate more possible awareness.

I feel like the grounds they used to remove it are possibly BS and should possibly be challenged.

Edit: Nevermind, seems like it's about a year old.

https://psyarxiv.com/qry4b/

Someone suggested though that it's likely they probably enforce the rules selectively. I personally don't have the energy to figure that out. Well, at least it got shared here.

[–]worthwhilewrongdoing 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

This comment is outstanding. Thank you for typing all this up!

[–]big_meats93[S] 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, I tried to read some articles about IATs- most of the negative ones were speaking negatively about them in terms of stuff like unconscious racism. So, I also have to wonder if the people who don't want to like them also don't like the idea of unconscious racism - i.e., are also biased, (not that I disagree) and that affects their thinking processes around them, and would they come up with different arguments in favor of why they are valid if they claimed to prove things that they wanted to believe were being proven? Of course, there's a lot of debate to be had about whether we really believe in things a lot of the time based on logical veracity or going on more identity-based or emotional type thinking.

If you look at the wikipedia article on IATs under the Validity Research heading, there's some interesting information to chew on arguing both for and against the validity.

At the end of the day, yeah, could be all BS, could not. Doesn't change the fact that the "explicit" manifestations of different sorts of discrimination should no doubt carry more weight. In our topsy-turvy world, though, for some reason, here we are studying implicit discrimination and everyone pays attention - while some really good posts talking about statistics measuring hardcore real world stuff can fly under the radar. Maybe it won't always be like that.

[–]AskingToFeminists 4 points5 points6 points 3 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

If you look at the wikipedia article on IATs under the Validity Research heading, there's some interesting information to chew on arguing both for and against the validity.

While Wikipedia may sometimes be a food source of information, I tend to be skeptical about using it for anything that is even remotely controversial, particularly if it touches feminism. Wikipedia is notably biased pro feminism, with feminists having openly declared they engaged in campaigns of mass editing and flagging, with support or at least acceptance from Wikipedia side.

Doesn't change the fact that the "explicit" manifestations of different sorts of discrimination should no doubt carry more weight.

With that, we agree. Intersectional scholars don't, though. Core to intersectionality is the idea that gradual change doesn't work, only revolution does. As such, if gradual change gives the illusion that things improvem, it just means that the discrimination moved on from perceptible to "more subtle ways of discriminating" that are however just as potent. Discrimination is a bit like God or the devil in that model, in that it doesn't need to be proven, is ever present and affects everything. "The question is not if racism took place, it is how it took place".

As such, IATs and their use to "detect implicit bias" is the dreamed excuse to justify intersectionalists, pretty much in the same way that scientologist pretend to have an instrument to measure whatever that bullshit it is they claim they detect, like how much of a soul from the previous universe you are or something.

IATs might actually be measuring something. Unconscious bias is probably not it. But now, intersectionalists have an excuse to keep on their bullshit.

They will take care of all biases, in order of what is the priority, but the priority is the top of the oppression stack, and bias can't be eliminated as it only moves into unconsciousness, unless there's a revolution, and so, they keep on going on those same points because the priority can not change, not matter what you discover. No matter how big the explicit bias against white men, there's still the unconscious bias against blacks and women, and given the amount of "historical oppression" and the fact that total bias is an invariant barring a revolution, black people and women are still just as discriminated against, except that it has gotten worse because now it is unconscious and even harder to demonstrate it to unbelievers, who have not awoken their critical consciousness.

Hence why they feel entitled to dismiss actual demonstrable bias in favor of "implicit, unconscious bias".

The fact that all the attempts at training people out of "unconscious bias" have not actually reduced the risks of biased actions, or even increased them is irrelevant.

The goal of intersectionality is not progressive change, it's revolution. What matters is that intersectionalists gain more power and influence, more ability to destabilise institutions and society, so that the revolution is easier. Of they increased "explicit bias", they might even see that as a positive, taking the bias out of the unconscious and revealing the "true nature" of the people they trained as indeed being racists...

Oh, how I wish I was paranoid...

[–]big_meats93[S] 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Very good discussion.

I have to say, I do feel the impression that the idea of intersectionality isn't completely useless. Maybe you don't equate the idea with those who mainly now identify as "intersectionalists".

I take intersectionality to mean the idea of considering how different identity groups "intersect" in different people and how this creates different situations for different people in different places at different times based on what the cultural conditionings around those identities are. For instance many here wouldn't easily give up the wisdom granted them when they began wising up to how society treated them based on them being male, and then for example maybe poor and/or disabled (or whatever else they might be - straight, gay, bi, black, red, yellow, brown). Theoretically, we could even come up with nearly infinite new things to delineate people by that they could potentially identify with. Like - a new one- whether they are voluntarily or involuntarily celibate, or having sex - that now seems like an identity group or status (wouldn't it meet the qualifications?) but it's not getting much respect as one. Does it not seem people identify or are encouraged to identify with that status/identity? (not saying they should)

Where intersectionality goes too far I think though is when people get stuck in those categories as the main definers of their existence, and society ultimately gets balkanized into tinier and tinier bits- because people identify with smaller and smaller groups that are more and more specific, rather than putting more unifying considerations above the rest. The question is, can we maintain the wisdom we glean from intersectional type thinking yet still put "human being" as number one and hold that in common with all other humans, rather than using our identities as a deepening gulf between us and others.

In political trends, I tend to like to give people some good faith in that they maybe think they are doing the right thing- however screwed up it may look at times (I'm talking in both sides of the political spectrum). They could be misguided. If they're gaining power and messing things up, that just means it's more important that intelligent, compassionate people who are willing to try to gain a deep understanding of how people understand themselves stand up with intelligent, compassionate takes on the situation and speak up more often.

[–]AskingToFeminists 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

Damn, I had started to type a good answers. My phone slipped off my hands, and went to the homepage, deleting it. It's annoying.

Basically, intersectionality is in what I classify the same way as homeopathy : a good idea from afar, a terrible idea as soon as you look more into it.

I mean, homeopathy.eopathy is just "taking something that creates a symptom, diluting it so it's less dangerous, and using that to train you to fight the symptom". It looks like it could be a good idea. Kind of like a vaccine.

But the devil is in the details. Details like the fact that you dilute to "less than a drop in an ocean". Or like the fact that it's not how the immune system works, as it's not based on symptoms. Tiny details, which result in it being utter bullshit.

Same goes for intersectionality.

"It is just considering that there can be multiple axes of oppression". Until you look into the details. Details like the fact that intersectionality is in fact an attempt to salvage bigotry. Bigotry is treating people as member of homogeneous groups. Except that doesn't work because people are individuals. So intersectionality multiplies the groups, treating people as members of a lot of homogeneous groups. The solution to bigotry not working : multiplying the axes along which you are a bigot. And that's from the get go, from the original paper by Crenshaw.

There are regularly people who come here trying to preach the use of intersectionality. Here's my answer to that quoting the original paper, a textbook used to teach it, and a paper by intersectional scholar discussing its purpose in education. To summarise:

  • identity politics didn't work because true identity politics was never tried, we need more of it, not less.

  • intersectionality was created in opposition to the civil rights movement's idea that people should be treated as individuals, on the content of their character, not on their characteristics

  • the axioms of intersectionality is that society is unjust down to its fabric, and so we seek to change the very fabric of society (aka a revolution)

  • you are either with us or against us

  • if you are with us, it has to be constant and lifelong

  • lived experience is just as valid as scientific data, so reason doesn't work because we feel we are right

  • the goal of intersectional education is not to teach, it's to create agents who will parasitize their fields and disrupt them to spread intersectionality. (Let's indoctrinate kids)

So, thank you, but no, I don't want any part of that cult coming near me.

For instance many here wouldn't easily give up the wisdom granted them when they began wising up to how society treated them based on them being male, and then for example maybe poor and/or disabled (or whatever else they might be - straight, gay, bi, black, red, yellow, brown).

The idea is not to deny that bigots exist, the goal is to not try to fix bigotry with bigotry.

Theoretically, we could even come up with nearly infinite new things to delineate people by that they could potentially identify with.

Yup, hence why intersectionality is doomed to failure, because categories are infinite and circumstantial. Hence why we need to treat people as individuals. Unlike what intersectionality preaches

Where intersectionality goes too far I think though is when people get stuck in those categories as the main definers of their existence, and society ultimately gets balkanized into tinier and tinier bits- because people identify with smaller and smaller groups that are more and more specific, rather than putting more unifying considerations above the rest.

It's not a bug, it's the goal. Get everyone to balkanize, to fight along their own identity groups, until all that bigotry is so unstable, society is so fractured, that society as a whole unravel, allowing the coming of the permanent revolution which leads to the utopia of an unbiased society, which is unbiased because something permanently unraveling is not fixed enough to have bias.

Remember, society is unjust down to its very fabric, and the goal of intersectionality is to change that.

In political trends, I tend to like to give people some good faith in that they maybe think they are doing the right thing

People almost always believe they are doing the right thing. The nazis thought they were doing the right thing. "The poor aryans are oppressed by the Jews, and need to punch up against their oppression" was very much the rhetoric.

There's nothing more dangerous and frightening than someone who's self righteous and full of certainty. Particularly if they are misguided.

And the people who voted for the nazi didn't believe it would end up the way it did. Some of the higher ups knew the plans. Even if the population had read mein kampf, thoroughly, how many would have dismissed the idea of mass extermination of the Jews as "hyperbole" or "just a freak minority" ? How many would have said "well, we were historically oppressed, so now it's our turn to be on top, and if a few Jews must suffer, that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make"?

If they're gaining power and messing things up, that just means it's more important that intelligent, compassionate people who are willing to try to gain a deep understanding of how people understand themselves stand up with intelligent, compassionate takes on the situation and speak up more often.

Well, that's why I don't hesitate for a second to wholesale reject intersectionality. That thing has been tainted at its inception, and need to be thoroughly rejected as far away from any influence position as possible. It has caused already enough damage, and it will keep wreaking havoc until it is made powerless.

It should be viewed with as much contempt as nazism is, and as communism deserves.

[–]big_meats93[S] 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

My phone slipped off my hands, and went to the homepage, deleting it. It's annoying.

lol yeah, computer is a superior device imho, tends to not happen ;)

I guess like with any issue, there can multiple different strains of thought carrying its torches with slightly different variations. Some with better intelligence and intentions, others coming from different places.

I'm not sure I quite believe in the communist plot to destroy the whole world that the right likes to accuse the entire left of, and that everything that liberals do that is lame is a manifestation of that. There's a lot of folks existing to the left of liberals who don't like the ways that liberals think as well. Those particular leftists would often say they'd like to disown liberals as even being "left" at all.

I'm also not sure I can wholesale throw away the idea that society has different predispositions based on different identity groups, and that different ones can intersect. So, you think only one degree of depth of identity group at a time should ever be considered? What about this subreddit? It's specifically "left wing male advocates". Is that not somewhat intersectional? It's specifically, males, who care about issues that pertain to males, who are left wing - at least two degrees of depth. More specific, because it allows more of a depth of richness of a particular realm of experience that only these particular people can speak to as opposed to - what- right wing male advocates? or left wing female advocates? or just "male advocates", because then there'd be a lot of right-wing stuff mixed in, and this sub wanted to differentiate itself, because there was a need for different experience to be spoken to.

[–]AskingToFeminists 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm not sure I quite believe in the communist plot to destroy the whole world that the right likes to accuse the entire left of

Go read Marx. He his ideologically opposed to the idea of specifying how the communist utopia will be set up. For him, capitalism taints the minds of everyone, making it so that we can't even conceive of a world without it, and so what need to happen is a massive/permanent revolution out of which the communist utopia will spontaneously and magically set itself up. All that is required is that the people on a whole start rejecting capitalism. Except that vapitalism is actually quite good at making people rather content, so that turned out to be a problem, and latter Marxists concluded that to usher in the communist utopia, it was needed to make people as discontent as possible. Exacerbate misery, and the utopia will spontaneously set itself in once society crumble. That's the plan. The whole plan. And any attempt to have something progressive, or to plan how to set up things is capitalism tainting your mind, your false consciousness. Any question of "But what about the people who want more than their share, or who want to take advantage of the system" is irrelevant as these questions are only due to capitalism tainting your mind. In the communist utopia, people don't want more than their share and all participate fairly into the system. "But how will the people coordinate?" Well society will coordinate itself spontaneously, without need for leaders who exploit the work of others.

It's not a plot to destroy the world. It's a child's view of humanity trying to be imposed of a society wide level. It has no notions of things like human behavioral biology. Which can be almost forgiven in marx as psychology and biology were not up to the level they are nowadays, but is hard to excuse in modern hard-core Marxists.

Intersectionality is that, except that instead of having misery due to work, you have misery due to your identity. Hence why a part of the left gave up on focusing on workers to focus on minorities.

And it's not like I've been saying that without evidence. Have you read the things I quoted?

Critical social justice recognizes inequality as deeply embedded in the fabric of society (i.e., as structural), and actively seeks to change this.

How do you call changing the very fabric of society, if not a revolution?

I'm also not sure I can wholesale throw away the idea that society has different predispositions based on different identity groups, and that different ones can intersect

And you don't have to. That's the beauty if individualism : you get to consider that every individual's situation is unique, and needs to be treated in its uniqueness. Because you will never be able to specify all the various identities of someone, because identities are infinite and context dependent.

You see, as a white in the US, you're likely to be in the majority, sure. But if you walk into a neighborhood that is mostly black, you might find yourself being the minority. It is absurd to as such to define fix categories and to affix to those some sorts of universal privileges and oppression. Ot is even worse, because intersectionality fails to consider plenty of axes and context, because they are infinite and context dependent. If you are a nerd in the middle of jocks, you might get bullied in some ways. If you are a jock in the middle of nerds, you might get bullied in other ways. Of you grew up in the countryside and find yourself in town, you are out of place and it can be seen. If you grew up in town and find yourself in the countryside, you are out of place and it can be seen... if you are not a stamp collectir and find yourself at a stamp.collecting event,... you get the idea.

The only option is to consider individuals in individual situations. And nothing prevent us from seeing that individuals in individual situations face some kinds of unfair disadvantages due to their identities, without enshrining that identity and turning that disadvantage into an absolute.

Basically, intersectionality didn't invent the idea of certain people facing disadvantages in certain situations. It is just that intersectionality is completely bigoted in its approach, but try to claim it invented tepid water so as to try to reclaim some legitimacy to the people who don't bother to look into it, so that they can serve as convenient shield for its bigotry.

What about this subreddit? It's specifically "left wing male advocates". Is that not somewhat intersectional?

It no more needs to be intersectional than any charity needs to be Christian. Just because Christians like to claim that charity is a Christian thing doesn't mean they have a monopoly, invented it, or deserve some amount of credit for it. Particularly when Christian charity tends to come with a sermon, a bible, or a recommendation not to use condoms.

Same goes with intersectionality. It didn't invent noticing that in specific situations, some people faced some issues. It doesn't deserve credit for it. Particularly given that intersectionality tends to come along with bigotry.

We are for treating people as individuals. One of the big gripes we have is precisely that in many cases, men fail to be treated as individuals. So, no intersectionality for us, as far as I'm concerned, thank you very much.

We're aligned with the spirit of the various civil rights movements. Intersectionality is explicitly, from its inception, in opposition to those:

Kimberley Crenshaw, in mapping the margins, the text that founded intersectionality :

The embrace of identity politics, however, has been in tension with dominant conceptions of social justice. Race, gender, and other identity categories are most often treated in mainstream liberal discourse as vestiges of bias or domination-that is, as intrinsically negative frameworks in which social power works to exclude or marginalize those who are different. According to this understanding, our liberatory objective should be to empty such categories of any social significance. Yet implicit in certain strands of feminist and racial liberation movements, for example is the view that the social power in delineating difference need not be the power of domination; it can instead be the source of social empowerment and and reconstruction.

The problem with identity politics is not that it fails to transcend difference, as some critics charge, but rather the opposite-that it frequently conflates or ignores intragroup differences.

"The civil right movement demanded we treat people on the content if their characters, not the color of their skin, but we can generate power for our tribe by focusing on it, and so we should"

Except that tribalism begets tribalism, that playing "power to my tribe" makes other people play "power to my tribe too", and that if you are a minority, that's usually a terrible idea, because your tribe can garner much less power that way and loose.

Rather than playing a game of creating teams which will either win or loose, it's much better to try to have everyone considered on a case by case basis, where everyone gets to cooperate fairly' while quashing the instances of unfairness that try to grow.

It's specifically, males, who care about issues that pertain to males, who are left wing

Here's the trick. It is not something to exclude. We welcome plenty of right wing people to share their opinions, and plenty of non male advocates come here to discuss or see what we are about. Those categories are not what one needs to be to be here. They are what gather us.

Is you go to an intersectional "trans lesbian indigenous feminist" event, you better be a trans lesbian indigenous feminist, and if you are not, you better make yourself discreet. It is intersectionality which brought back segregation.

The difference is that ours is a space about interests, while an intersectional space is about identity. As a space about interest, we are interested about it, and are happy to share or explain our interest to others, so that it may spread. If people have misconceptions or think we are wrong, we are happy to discuss those with them, in hope we may all improve.

As a space about identity, intersectional spaces only allow that identity to be represented.

Try going to a feminist space and say you are mot a feminist and think feminism is mistaken on something. Politely, with arguments and statistics as back up. See how quickly you will get banned. If you don't, tell us, you might have found the one feminist space that is not about identity. Most likely, you will be told to "educate yourself" and banned. Showing that it is not about interests, it's not about sharing and convincing people. It's about recruiting members for the in-group to get more powerful and impose it's domination on the out-group.

It's the difference between a stamp collection gathering and a kkk gathering. If you don't collect stamps, you are welcome to come in, to discuss stamp collecting, and why the people here care about it. They will happily tell you. You might discuss your passion for warhammer, and people might respond to it, but ultimately, it's a stamp gathering, so it will be mainly about stamps, and the people there might be bothered if you try to make it all about warhammer. They will have no issue with you making your own warhammer event, some members might overlap, and if one day, there are warhammer themed stamps, you might even have joined events, because the interest overlap.

A kkk gathering, on the other hand? Better not go as a black person.

The difference between an identity movement and an interest movement event is clear to you, now?

[–]molbionerd 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

https://psyarxiv.com/qry4b/ a PDF of it in Pre-print. Assuming they are the same. It was linked on his blog page

[–]worthwhilewrongdoing 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I still haven't had a good chance to read this over yet, but I wanted to tell you I haven't forgotten about you or this post. Thank you so much for finding this for me.

[–]molbionerd 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

No worries. I've gotten pretty good at getting around those paywalls over the years.

[–]Oncefa2left-wing male advocate 5 points6 points7 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It didn't do too well on r/psychology, either. And they're usually pretty good about this sort of stuff because gender bias is obviously studied in psychology.

[–]Schadrach 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

It was generating some conversation there in the comments, with a lot being removed. Then it was taken down- the eventual comment left by mods at r/science say it was taken down because the research is more than 6 months old. I personally can't find anything indicating that. The journal article linked to on the American Psychological Association's website says it's not publicly available until May, and the study itself seems to me to be dated 2023 (and we are still only in March).

Connor, P., Weeks, M., Glaser, J., Chen, S., & Keltner, D. (2023). Intersectional implicit bias: Evidence for asymmetrically compounding bias and the predominance of target gender. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 124(1), 22–48. https://doi.org/10.1037/pspa0000314

Just thought it was interesting. Threads like that in real time are a way to see these kinds of biases play out in the comments (and what even eventually happens to the thread- seems you can't even talk about this stuff). You can see it in "View discussion in other 4 communities" under this post. Apparently it had also been posted and removed before, nobody seems to have challenged the over 6 month old thing either time (can you even challenge the almighty reddit mods or respond to those comments?). Maybe I'm wrong though, anyone want to correct me? Doesn't seem over 6 months old...

Actually asked the r/science mods about this one. Apparently they go by first date it appeared online asserting that journal publication date (in this case January 2023 if you look up that journal issue) is often several months later, so I guess the question is when the preprint first appeared on Berkeley's servers?

I wouldn't be shocked if this is one of those cases where an inconsistent standard is applied or a standard is applied inconsistently, though. Only way to be sure would be to start checking other posts on that sub and reporting violations based on that standard and see what happens?

[–]big_meats93[S] 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

where is the information available as to when it first appeared on Berkeley's servers? did the mods link you to this information?

[–]Schadrach 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

No, they just stated that the journal publication date isn't the date they use, they use the first time it was published online. I can't find any other sources for it other than the journal and the preprint, and the preprint is likely it's first appearance online.

[–]az226 18 points19 points20 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Lol. All possible explanations of the anti-male bias except the prevailing sentiment man bad woman good/punching up, etc.

[–]vtj 5 points6 points7 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Here's a freely accessible preprint for those who can't get through the publisher paywall. I haven't read it yet, but based on the abstract, it seems to mostly corroborate this older result (also freely available) which also used the (somewhat controversial) implicit association technique.

[–]Jaffacakes-and-Jesus 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Hmmmm I've heard some bad things about the IAT, not sure we can trust this https://www.thecut.com/2017/01/psychologys-racism-measuring-tool-isnt-up-to-the-job.html&ved=2ahUKEwjT_orzk__9AhWN_rsIHbGnAYEQFnoECAwQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3v2kn6YGW_h97GFS1JdMsm

[–]katzenkratzen69420 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Page not found

[–]Jaffacakes-and-Jesus 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh sorry, try this: https://www.thecut.com/2017/01/psychologys-racism-measuring-tool-isnt-up-to-the-job.html

[–]sorebum405 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The IAT is not a valid test there is already ample evidence of pro-female bias besides the IAT test.

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