Throwaway account because everytime I bring this up on a normal account I get followed around reddit and accosted further.
This will be long I'm sorry.
About 4 years ago, I was in a relationship that was incredibly toxic, and abusive, and like a lot of those who have been in this situation can attest to, I didn't really see it, I believed the psychological and emotional abuse. All the gas lighting, all of the put downs and all of the times I was told I was not good enough, and I didn't deserve better, and that it was my fault I was being treated this way; got through to me, and so I put up with it up. This relationship did involve sexual coercion on her part, on several occasions that I did not want to have sex. Let's call her R.
At one point during this relationship R had gone on a trip with university, R told me after this trip that R had got drunk with a guy there and she said he took advantage of her, and had raped her. I supported R through all of this, I tried to take her to the hospital to get a rape kit done, or at the very least have her clothes bagged as evidence by the hospital staff so that if anything came of it, the police would have something, she refused to do this. I took a week off work to help her through this time, to encourage her to go to the police, and to be as supportive as I possibly could. I tried to take her to the police, and after explaining the story for 2 or 3 hours to the police R decided to leave when they asked her to fill in an official statement so they could investigate. I took R to the police station on 3 other occasions over the next week in attempts for her to do this, I was patient, and respected her wishes everytime she changed her mind. In the end nothing was done, because she wouldn't make the statement to police. And that's okay. R never expressed any gratitude for the effort I went to help her out, she never acknowledged the week+ of work that I took off, that I had to make up within the next 6 weeks. She never thanked me, and only ever pointed out when I made some kind of mistake, or she perceived that I did something wrong.
After this time she went back to drinking and partying like she had been doing previously, she would always drink to excess, and would flirt with men in order to be bought drinks. She would go out without fail every Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday night; and would occasionally go out on Tuesday nights. Every night she would get absolutely wasted, to the point of passing out or vomitting. She would expect me to drive her around, even though at that time I was working full time, while also studying full time, and barely had time, but she would guilt me into doing this for her she would say "she had no other way to get to classes, and she was still a provisonal licence holder so would get done for DUI because of the amount she drank the night before". She would also use her rape as way to guilt me into picking her up after she had a long night out.
She didn't allow me to hang out with my friends, she didn't allow me to go out with my friends because some were female, and would verbally abuse me about how I wanted to hang out with girls over her, that I must have liked these girls more. One night I did go out with my friends, she told me I had to leave and go hang out with her after asking me if any of the friends were girls, and I told her they were.
This issue came out the most one night when I took R out to dinner, and whilst out I saw a girl who I was acquaintances with at university, at no more than a pass each other going to class every now and then, and speaking for 2 minutes once a week level. When I said to hi to her while we were out, R went absolutely ballistic, asking me how I knew her, and that I because I said hi to her, I "obviously wanted to fuck her", and she continued on with this tirade. And I just took it, because at this point, I just accepted that I was what she would say, a bad person, and a bad boyfriend.
R's habit of going and getting blind drunk ended up with her hanging out with some guy one night and then bringing her home. The only reason I found out about this, was because I went to surprise her with flowers and chocolate, and her favourite pastry. I'll never forget the feeling of finding out for the first time ever that you're being cheated on. They ended up having sex on multiple occasions, and like the idiot I was, I figured it was my fault I was being cheated on.
Now this next part might be hard to believe and I honestly wouldn't believe it myself, if it didn't happen. After basically hitching up with this guy, R accused him, to me, of raping her. At which point I told her I would step in for her and tell her, he needed to leave her alone. Now at first they did stay apart, but it wasn't 3 weeks until they started seeing each other again, and then another 2 weeks that she started to tell me how he would abuse her, and hit her. It was after all of this, that R told me that she wanted to move out of the bad university accommodation dorm room, in favour of an apartment; I asked her how she would pay for it, and she told me, that she would be moving in with this same guy. She continued to accuse him of abuse after they had moved in together. As you can imagine, given the circumstances, I can became slightly incredulous of her claims, given that she had decided to move in with this bloke, after she had accused him of raping her while she was drunk.
This all culminated in me breaking up with her, after I came to at least partial senses and realised I was being treated badly, and the reason I was depressed was because of this relationship. I got told I should go away from uni for a weekend to a hotel somewhere and recharge, and do something purely for me, and do things that made me feel good. So that's what I did. I rented a a nice hotel suite for a weekend, it had a kitchen and a separate lounge and dining area. I treated myself and bought some nice red wine, and some cider, as well as the most expensive steak I've ever bought from a butcher. I had got a movie that day as well, and was going to watch that with my wine and steak. I was feeling good for the first time in a long while.
At some point, somehow, this ex girlfriend found out where I was, (this still scares me to this day). She took it upon herself to come to this hotel, and walk there (this is important for later). At this stage I was pretty drunk, and I accept I chose to get drunk, because I wanted to, I wanted to relax and feel good that weekend. So she came to the hotel I was staying at and managed to manipulate the reception staff into giving out my room number, and came up to my room. I answered, and she demanded I let her in, because it was night time and she was afraid. I told her several times I didn't want to see her, but she made her way into my room. I made an effort to be nice and polite. I went back to watching my movie. At some point I had moved to the bed and passed out asleep.
Then I remember waking up with her on top of me, having sex with me. I told her several times, loudly to get off me. I tried gently getting her off of me. Not only was she on top of me having sex with me while I was passed out, but she had done so without a condom, which at this stage I had not done with her before, and didn't want to do with anyone. Not only that, I know she had been having regular sex with the other guy, and who knows who else. Now at this stage I can feel myself getting close to ejaculation, and I don't if she knew this, or if she could sense it in my panic, but when I started trying to get her off me, she leaned down and tried grabbing me, and squeezing her legs around me, she whispered in my ear "I want to have your babies so you can never leave". This scared the shit out of me, and along with the fact I was nearing finishing, I got some clarity and ended up pushing and tossing her off me as hard as I could, and I had thrown her a considerable distance off the bed and onto the ground. Somehow, she still managed to get me to give her a lift back to where she lived, even though she had walked here the other night.
It took me a few weeks to process what had happened, and it was at this stage that she had contacted me again, after moving back to her home state after failing her classes her parents stopped paying for her tuition and told her to come back home. Seeing her number come up on my phone caused me to have 1-2 hour long panic attacks, that at one point got the ambulance called on me. At some point I finally did speak to her, and she made the claim that she was pregnant from the night in question and that she was going to get an abortion. She told me the abortion was going to cost something like $900 and she was calling to ask for half of that money from me, because as she put it, this is “half your fault”. I finally found my self-respect, and I did not believe her, I had pushed her off well before I had ejaculated, and it all seemed very suspect; I also told her that that night in question was rape, and that any further communication of this nature, i.e. asking me to pay for an aborting would lead me to reporting her to the police. I haven’t heard from her since, and she has dropped off the map, and I couldn’t be happier.
Don't worry I am acutely aware of stupid and clueless I was back then, looking back on this I feel incredibly ashamed I let someone do this to me.
After about 6 months post R, I met another girl, who I thought was amazing, let’s call her M. She seemed to be very understanding, and very loving, and the sex was good and healthy; and I was allowed to take my time. It was in this time before meeting M, that I had a very bad accident, which has left me with a disability, and some bad PTSD. This relationship went on for over 3 years. However the last year became quite bad, and there was stuff going on I didn’t see until afterwards, hindsight is 20/20.
I will try to keep this brief. M was good at emotionally manipulating me, using my mental health, past issues, and my disabilities to gas light me. I have trouble with memory, however, I am always aware when I do. I am always aware when I forgotten something, there is a whole there, that is incredibly noticeable to me. M would tell me something I had done, or something I had failed to do, or when I questioned her as to something she had done, she would almost respond with something along the lines of “well your memory is screwed, how would you know” she challenged my very perception of reality at almost every point where I tried to communicate with her about something she was doing that I didn’t like or that I thought was mean.
She could never take any constructive criticism, and would never listen to any of the problems or feelings I had about her or some of actions; she would immediately begin to cry, and accuse me of attacking her, and then would go in for retaliatory strikes back at me, with things she was “saving up” to throw back at me in some attempt to discredit any of my issues.
She also turned out to be a compulsive liar, and a narcissist. She would lie about the smallest things constantly, she would lie to me even when I knew the truth and told her. She would constantly point out my flaws, and everything I screwed up, I was struggling at this stage with my PTSD, and so it was difficult to be on top of everything in my life, and my disabilities restrict what I can do, and also leave me with a lot resentment and depression; and have also meant I’ve been dealing with chronic pain for the last 3 years.
In the final year of our relationship things got very bad, sex was non existent, I felt bad for both asking for it, and bad for being rejected for over 12 months; it wasn’t that I felt entitled to it, however previously in our relationship we had been fairly regularly physical. I found out at the end of our relationship why there was no physical component anymore. I didn’t attempt to make her feel bad about any of this, and largely kept my feelings about constantly being rejected to myself, and I tried not show any of those feelings around her.
At around T-7 months from the end of our relationship I had found out that she had been seeing a friend for the last 4 months secretly, as in lying to me about what she was doing when she was seeing this person. They had previously (before we had met) been in a physical relationship together for a short period of time. Apart from being lied to, I was fine with her seeing him, as she assured me they were just friends, and I wanted to see her hang out with her friends more often; however that was on the proviso that she didn’t lie to me about seeing him. I honestly didn’t care, I just don’t like being lied to; in fact I was happy she was, because she seemed happier.
T-3 months; I wake up one night (2am) to an empty bed, and start to freak out as to where my partner of 3 years has gone after walking around the house looking for her. I start frantically panicking about something happening to her. Her car is missing, she is missing, and when I call her, I can’t get a hold of her. I’m texting her, and calling her, worried sick. Finally I get a hold of her and she replies with “What?”. She then proceeds to tell me she went to his house, at 1am because she was struggling to sleep. Now you could be the least jealous type on the planet, and this would still be a giant red flag. And for me it was, and yeah, I did start to get suspicious, I found it incredibly difficult to trust what she was telling me.
Fast forwarding a little while to about 1 month before the breakup, I am using our iPad, and with M being the only one with an iOS phone, she has her phone synced up to the iPad. While I am using it a series of messages come through that point toward something more going on between the two, messages to him, as well as messages to her friends. I wasn’t trying to snoop, I was just playing Bejewelled, and these messages began to pop up. I tried confronting her about this, and on come the waterworks again, as well as the “saved up” slights to try and negate her behaviour. She tells me I’m crazy, and paranoid, and jealous, and that they’re just friends. She goes on to promise me, and swear on her parents, that they are just friends and nothing is happening. She tells me how much she loves me and can’t wait to spend the rest of our lives together.
Now at this stage, the proceedings for my accident are coming to a close and I have been awarded a decent sum in compensation for the accident and disabilities. At this point M suggests that I buy her a brand new car with this money, because she deserves it after “looking after me” and that her car now is a bomb, and needs to be replaced. So we go looking, and go for a test drive, and I say that I want to sleep on it, meanwhile she is champing at the bit to sign documents and get me to sign for a loan so she can have the car now and I can pay off the loan when I get my compensation. She gets quite upset about this, and becomes very distant after saying I need some time to think about a huge outlay of cash like this. I don’t feel comfortable getting into another car loan as a co-signer, because I know I will be the one paying the loan until I get my compensation, which is something I cannot afford, and she has racked up $12.5k in CC debt in the last 8 months because she has a shopping problem. She ended up applying for the loan and putting me down as cosigner, however she was denied because of her huge debt.
Now fast forward to the week of the breakup. She has been seeing this guy more frequently and for longer, at stranger hours, which causing my red flag alerts to be going off non stop, I can’t help it. One night she says she is going to his place with a bunch of friends for a movie night, something in that made me not believe that at all. And whilst I am not proud of what I did, I am glad I found out, and caught her. I ended up going to his place. There were no other cars around except for hers, when she told me there were at least 8 other people there. And when I looked through open window from my car, all I saw was him and her, sitting alone together snuggling up, and making out. I texted her to ask her how things were going and how everyone else was doing. I watched her text me about all the people that weren’t there and how they were all laughing and having a good time. She lied, and I caught her doing it.
Somehow I managed to blame myself for this, for a week, until I finally broke it off with her, after she lied to my face after she came home and I asked her about. She didn’t care whatsoever. She lied and lied and lied. For literally hours.
Anyway down to the issues. And my apologies for the rambling and super long story.
I feel incredibly violated, and incredibly bad about all these things. I always blame myself for what happened.
I tried to get help, I tried to talk to people about what happened. But I got met with the same shit, over and over, I had most people ask me “So what did you do to make her cheat on you, or make her so mad with you”, my own mother said “men can’t be raped. Did you get an erection? Well you must have enjoyed it then” and variations on the “dude you had sex, you should feel lucky”. Well I don’t. This shit haunts me everyday, and I looked in a lot of places for help and support, but was constantly met with the same shit, the majority of support services only cater to women, and when there is a for men support service, it talks about stopping your violence, and talks about you, the man, being the perpetrator. I only ever found one place that was specifically for male victims of sexual assault. But everywhere else, it was either for women only, or the support they provided men was support in helping men stop abusing, and stop using violence. And seeing this everywhere I turned, every place bar one that I looked at for help, I keep getting told that no, you aren’t the victim, you’re the perpetrator. Constantly seeing this, and not getting any support, not even from my own family has caused me to not talk about this with anyone, and the few times I have felt brave enough to share a snippet of this story, I get shut down, primarily by women. And I can’t take it. This has led me to being admitted into an inpatient mental health unit for a suicide attempt. After I was raped, I visited family in 3 states, and looked for support services in all of those states, and again was met with the same shit. And here is some of that stuff, and this is what is available today, this is what men looking for help will find.
https://imgur.com/a/5w3h7Kg
Now I am not trying to make some political statement, I am simply sharing my story and the difficulty I have had in finding any support services. I know women get abused, a lot, and I'm not asking for any of their services to be taken away, or anything like that. I am glad they get that support. But I would like to see men not labelled only or first off as the abusers. Because I guarantee that it is causing male victims to not seek help, because they don't feel like there is anything available to them. It certainly doesn't help us with the feelings of shame either about being a victim, when we constantly see how we are perpetrators.
And because of all this I now shut everyone out, I rarely if ever talk about this stuff. And it is affecting my relationships. I cannot for the life of me move onto the next stage of dating past meeting up for the first time. I can’t get out of my head the thought that something bad is going to happen again, I am going to get hurt again, and I am once again not going to have any support. I am going to get taken advantage of. I cannot trust anyone. I cannot show my feelings to anyone. I cannot tell this story, because it seems like every time I do, I get lambasted about me being the cause of the behaviour directed toward me, or that I am weak, and a doormat. I know I got trodden all over and I don’t want that to happen again. I have so much damn love to give, but I am so scared of letting anyone in that I am ruining relationships.
I have been in therapy and seen shrinks ever since I was raped, but it doesn’t seem to be going anywhere.
I don't know what else to do.
tl;dr after experiencing some pretty bad abuse, physical, sexual, psychological and emotional from an ex girlfriend, and subtle psychological manipulation from the next, I struggle to find any services for me, and those that I do, make out like I'm supposed to be the abuser. I struggle trusting or opening up with anyone, but particularly women, and can't get any relationships to the next level. How do I move on?
[–]Vman2 27 points28 points29 points (1 child) | Copy Link
I was a victim of domestic violence. There were witnesses and everything. Of course I never retaliated because I am not violent and I was raised to never hit women. But eventually I had to get out of there for my own safety. In the divorce my lawyer warned me to never mention being a victim of domestic violence or I would lose any chance of maintaining a relationship with the kids. Turns out my lawyer was correct. It ruined me. Happens every day for the last 4 decades around the world.
I'm remarried and the kids are adults but their minds are poisoned against me so I still have no contact with them. This sort of thing, you never get over.
This is the reality of feminism and the attitudes espoused by Gillette.
[–]GoneMYway[S] 19 points20 points21 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Oh man I'm so sorry.
Yep that get's rammed down our throats from the moment we can understand "Never hit women, NEVER"
And women know this, and they take advantage of it.
[–]Halafax 17 points18 points19 points (0 children) | Copy Link
My ex is disturbed. She’s in prison now, but there was a time when she scared the hell out of me. Not physically abusive, at least not directly. She liked using proxie threats and accusations, and oh my god was that effective. She was charming, and female, and people wanted to believe.
I didn’t escape, I was ejected. She thought she had found a better deal and left. Took everything that she could, including hiding our children from me. The abuse continued, just from a different range and with a different set of proxies. The family court became her best friend, I spent months digging out from under unfair (and often conflicting) orders. I survived by pure endurance, what bit of me that crawled away from the experience was as cold and numb.
And it somehow got worse. I reached out for help, but the help didn’t want my kind of problem. Didn’t believe me, wouldn’t have me. When I paid for therapy, the therapist literally didn’t have anything about abused men. Kept questioning and probing “to figure the real story out”. The best they could do was offer pamphlets and copies of advice for women. “Just switch the genders as you read it”, but that was terrible advice. Women use different mechanisms than men, they use what works best for them.
But I survived that too. I didn’t heal, but the therapists weren’t doing that anyway. And somehow, it all fell apart again. My ex was terrible with money, she blew through the support I paid and eventually sold kiddie porn of one of our kids. Several times. And got caught with it.
You know what’s worse than getting denied help because you are a man? Getting your kids denied help because you are a father and the perpetrator was a woman. I called RAINN, the operator spent an hour going over our story “just one more time” and then sent us away with nothing. The county services didn’t want us. No one did.
If you are in an abusive situation, be extremely careful about approaching help. Lots of people, like the mod posting in this thread, are going to make it worse.
[–]GoneMYway[S] 6 points7 points8 points (0 children) | Copy Link
For reference if you didn't read, here's the album of "resources and support services" that are female focused.
https://imgur.com/a/5w3h7Kg
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
I was raped as a young boy by an older boy, "friend" of the family. Take my word for it: law enforcement and society do not take sexual assault of boys or men seriously. You're going to have to work through it the best way you can on your own. Never let yourself be walked over again, do not blame yourself for what happened to you and find the "red pill." Build your life, make something of yourself, be proud. No other person and no woman can make that happen for you; make no mistake.
[–]goodmod[M] [score hidden] stickied comment (6 children) | Copy Link
This post has been removed because people were brigading the linked subreddit.
Posts like this should use screenshots, not links.
[–]aldernaft 2 points3 points4 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]GoneMYway[S] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Got tired of strawmanning MRAs
[–]goodmod 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
We shouldn't be brigading other subreddits anyway.
[–]aldernaft 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Agreed
[–]Y33TtheB8 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
Isn't that what the NP link is for ?
[–]goodmod 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Yes, that's another option.
However, this was not an NP link.
[–]Rivershots 6 points7 points8 points (6 children) | Copy Link
This infuriates me on so many levels. I remember being a young private in the army and having a female captain tell my entire unit. if a woman is drunk and claims rape. then its rape .. moving on. 19 yo me raises hand. SO UH>>>? does that go both ways? she looks at me like. dead eyed.. "excuse me"? Mam.. if a man is drunk does he get to claim its rape? Absolutely NOT! so.. can you tell me how that stands legally that you're affording a right to a woman but not a man? Silence.. So Mam your saying men can't be raped? No private , not by women.. So mam its impossible for you to sexually assault me? cornered. Guess who was demoted to LT after she told a unit of men they can't be sexually assaulted by women cause it doesn't work that. Those dudes started screaming at her. like 45 grown men like.. Are you serious bitch!? rank went out the window. no one cared it almost turned into a brawl. way the whole fucking world believes this shit.. and then they dont belive men, becuase drunk guy got a boner so obviously he wanted it.. Fuck i could burn down a building. I'm sorry OP I stand with you how I can.
[–]Ragnrok 4 points5 points6 points (5 children) | Copy Link
r/thathappened
[–]Rivershots 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
So here's the deal. it wasn't just our unit apparently that had a mutiny. Turns out that the unit before us had a similar incident. Not to the same level of chaos. But someone had apparently stated " it sounds like you're saying men can't be rape victims " and her response was something along the lines of " they're usually not" so after our unit had a coup de tat. One of our major's contacted the state sharp director ( guard ) and apparently she had been basically flat out saying. men can't be rape victims. which goes against like any and all things sharp and sarc say. so she was punished among those lines. if you want a r/thathappened the state sharp director that punished this CPT was an ezrider model in her younger days.
[–]blazin_fire 0 points1 point2 points (3 children) | Copy Link
Probably did
[–]Ragnrok 3 points4 points5 points (2 children) | Copy Link
45 enlisteds losing their shit at a captain, with the ultimate result being the captain losing rank? No. None of that happened.
[–]Rougemak 2 points3 points4 points (1 child) | Copy Link
I don’t think he meant she lost rank. Rank went out the window makes it sound like people just stopped with the “ma’am after a bit. But i agree, unlikely. There’s always one guy willing to talk back to an officer. Never more than one.
[–]Ragnrok 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Reread the story. He said she got demoted to Lt
[–]blazin_fire 1 point2 points3 points (5 children) | Copy Link
Jesus, that's tough. You need to stop letting assholes manipulate you. They're going to always lie and cheat you. Don't let that happen. Set your bar high and you really need to trust them. If anything seems off, try asking them if something is wrong. Usually they'd tell you if they wanted something or had a problem. If they don't, most likely they're lying/cheating you. Just try to keep yourself safe. Try to manipulate them into not manipulating you. Good Luck in the future.
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points (0 children) | Copy Link
victim blaming. its not his fault these people are pieces of shit.
[–]GoneMYway[S] 0 points1 point2 points (3 children) | Copy Link
The OP of the AI page might not see this, as I crossposted this, and I am not that OP.
Might want to comment it there.
[–]tmone 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
i did and got banned. sooooo
[–]blazin_fire 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
oh rip thats unfortunate
[–]GoneMYway[S] 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Comment on his post?
[–]aldernaft 1 point2 points3 points (4 children) | Copy Link
Banned for calling out hypocrisy by a mod
[–]AshenMacaroon 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Got banned to “for brigading”
[–]HeForeverBleeds 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Yeah, the mods seem like the typical ignorant morons who are anti-MRA without having a clue what MRA's actually stand for or believe. At least they left the post up, though probably just because he made clear that he wasn't making a political statement
It's annoying how there always have to be some "I'm not trying to attack women" disclaimers whenever a male victims tells his story, or else there will be people trying to shut him down
[–]GoneMYway[S] 1 point2 points3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
What comment is that?
[–]aldernaft 3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Reply to a stickied mod comment implying that all MRAs are anti-feminist. Edited
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
When it comes to equality, hardly anyone considers that in order to solve the issues men face, we need to examine ALL angle. EVERY one. Even if it means unveiling some uncomfortable truths. Such as the fact that you can have the most sensitive, non-aggressive man who fits every label of non-toxic masculinity according to these ideologues. Yet, women can take advantage of this, through emotional and physical abuse and the man will have no recourse. He stands up for himself, the abuser can turn the story around and have him framed for abusing HER.
He shares his story of abuse, he's going to be attacked for "stealing attention away from female victims". Doubly-so if he believes domestic and sexual abuse is NOT a gendered issue.
So in both cases, they stuff him into the very "man box" they purportedly are about tearing down.
Until society comes to grips with this and actually takes WOMEN to task for the crimes they commit (meaning equal sentencing, no falling back on excuses), Male Victims are NEVER going to be heard and there will never be ANY services for them equivalent to what what women receive in times of need.
[–]GoneMYway[S] 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Catch 22.
That man who fits every label, is also the most likley to be taken advantage of.
[+]invah -11 points-10 points-9 points (56 children) | Copy Link
Hi, I am the moderator of Abuse, Interrupted and I just want to prevent any kind of brigading on the subreddit. Abuse, Interrupted is not anti-feminist.
[–]GoneMYway[S] 16 points17 points18 points (38 children) | Copy Link
Is it anti mens rights?
[+]invah -19 points-18 points-17 points (37 children) | Copy Link
Theoretically, no, but practically - with reference to MRA - yes. What I have seen of the Men's Rights Movement and Paul Elam in particular is problematic.
What absolutely frustrates me about this is that I actively look for resources for male victims of abuse, and what exists is primarily promulgated by problematic people. There are very few resources I feel comfortable recommeding outright because MRA-related subculture seems so toxic.
[–]Rivershots 17 points18 points19 points (4 children) | Copy Link
Look I'm new to MRA. but I feel I have to ask. how is that not anti mens rights? you've taken a firm stance by saying you're not anti-feminist. But you have a disclaimer on your mens rights views. With a name drop. Mabye I'm drastically mis-understanding your tone and If so ill apologize here and now.
[–]invah -2 points-1 points0 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Here is another example of my taking a female victim-centric resource - Lundy Bancroft, the author of "Why does he do that? Inside the minds of angry and controlling men" - and adapted it to be inclusive.
[–]invah -2 points-1 points0 points (2 children) | Copy Link
Abuse, Interrupted is not 'pro' feminist either. There's a venn diagram where AI overlaps with items from feminism and items related to men's rights. I am trying to avoid getting brigaded by aggressive commenters with an axe to grind. I literally banned a person yesterday for implying that men aren't victims of domestic abuse.
The reason I have this disclaimer is that I have, for years, attempted to find reliable sources for male victims of abuse. To say I was disappointed that I couldn't use A Voice for Men is an understatement.
I have a much easier time finding non-problematic resources for female victims of abuse than I do for male victims of abuse. However, if you run a search function for "male victim", you'll see I post items as I can.
One tool I have used is to excerpt and adapt articles to de-gender them and make them less hetero-normative. Here is an example of an article that I adapted. You'll see what I mean if you compare it to the original.
I don't generally post 'feminist' resources unless I think there is a very good reason to do so, or there is a specific and unique perspective in doing so. I am really trying to avoid getting sucked into a feminism v. MRA situation.
[–]GoneMYway[S] 9 points10 points11 points (1 child) | Copy Link
What do you mean by problematic?
Is it not problematic that you have to do this
Do you find it an issue that there are SOO many resources for women, and so many support services, hotlines, groups, refuges, etc. and those for "support services" for men either ONLY talk about "are you concerned about the way you use violence" hotlines to help men stop abusing. And those that have something for male victims, ALWAYS look like an after thought, tacked onto the end in an obvious attempt to silence people who might complain by saying "no look we say we help male victims"; while not a single women's hotline or support group/service does that?
I would like to know why you are anti MRM, but not anti feminist, when both have their bad actors, both have bad high profile voices?
[–]invah 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
It is absolutely problematic. There was a crisis line specifically for male victims of abuse that is no longer active, which means I am down one less resource for men in abusive relationships.
Everything you identify is absolutely a problem, there is no question that there are systemic inequalities for male victims of abuse in support networks.
Again, I banned a person yesterday who asserted that domestic abuse was a gendered crime against women specifically, and I banned them for undermining male victims' experience of abuse.
Here are three example of article I have written identifying abuse of men, specifically:
[–]GoneMYway[S] 11 points12 points13 points (9 children) | Copy Link
So do we get to make blanket statements about feminists because of the quite large groups of extreme feminists or the colloquial term "feminazis" and what they do? You don't have to look very far to find toxic and man hating women who claim to be feminists. There are plenty of problematic feminists as well, so is it wrong to be anti feminist because of what we've seen with reference to 3rd wave feminism and
Do you agree with those feminists who claim argue against the MRM, not because of what they say, or the issues they bring up, or even what they say, but just because the movement focuses on male issues, that are objectively bad, and quite significantly wide spread, where no other people or groups are bring light to either.
You some feminists who LITERALLY say that because male on female violence occurs or is more serious, that female perpetrated violence is a non issue.
You things like women throwing bleach on men for "manspreading"
You have women interrupting, and actively trying to stop men getting together to talk about men's issues
You have women stating air condition is sexist
Women going on rant's about manspreading, without understanding basic grade 2 anatomy, as if it's the greatest injustice eon earth
Woman thinks men are following her when they do their jobs
The Hugh Mungus incident
The MRM is at least honest about what it does, it may be about equality, and ending the issues that men undoubtedly have, but the MRM makes it clear, their focus on those mens issues exclusively; while feminism claims that it's about equality, and makes claims about caring about the rights and issues facing both genders, when feminist rarely bring up and defend the issues men face.
[–]invah -1 points0 points1 point (8 children) | Copy Link
Yes, so this conversation and type of comment is exactly what I am trying to avoid on Abuse, Interrupted.
My goal is to make Abuse, Interrupted inclusive for victims of abuse, irrespective of gender, age, sexuality, etc.
[–]GoneMYway[S] 11 points12 points13 points (3 children) | Copy Link
That's why I'm not posting it there. I do agree that's what it should be. But if you're anti MRM shouldn't you also be anti feminist in that regard to be fair?
[–]invah -2 points-1 points0 points (2 children) | Copy Link
My goal is to support victims of abuse and people trying to stop the cycle of abuse. Getting in the middle of feminism v. MRA does not help me do that at all.
[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 7 points8 points9 points (0 children) | Copy Link
But you only attacked the mrm. You've defended feminism.
[–]BramblEdge 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Yet you defend feminism with all its bigotry and sexist policies.
But you denounce the movement that is trying to rectify the oppression, inequality and discrimination that occurs in abuse services which you, yourself, admit are a problem.
You are either spineless or a bigot.
[–]JamesGollinger 3 points4 points5 points (3 children) | Copy Link
First, I'd like to commend you for the work you do on Abuse, Interrupted and I appreciate you not wanting to have political and ideological discussions distracting the conversation from helping people. I'm also disappointed that you're being downvoted because I think this is an important conversation to have and am glad you're hear having it.
That said, by stating that you're effectively anti-MRA, you're failing to include a lot of men. As you mentioned, there aren't many resources for men and of lot of them are phrased along the lines of helping men to be better people as a solution to men being victims. MRA voices are the only ones saying that this is wrong, that men aren't to blame for being victims, and actually calling women out instead of blaming some abstract concept like 'toxic masculinity'. Some MRA voices are extreme, sure, but no more than Feminist extremists. I hadn't actually heard of Paul Elan until you brought him up but from what I've read he hasn't done or said anything that radical Feminists haven't been saying about men for decades.
This leads to male victims of abuse converging on MRAs and MRA sympathizers. And when someone says that MRAs are misogynists or hate groups or 'problematic' that invalidates the victims. They've finally found communities that hear them, beleive them and are on their side and suddenly that makes them evil by association. This leaves them two options; double down on MRA ideas or embrace the idea that the pain they feel is trivial or even morally wrong.
I find it hypocritical (yet somehow unsurprising) that you would accept feminist but not MRA ideas. Moreover, if you truly want to welcome all victims of abuse, I don't see why you would disavow MRAs, especially since so many male victims come here.
[–]invah -2 points-1 points0 points (2 children) | Copy Link
And Red Pill and incel and PUA and other types of support or personal development communities as well.
A core tenet of Abuse, Interrupted is that you can be both a victim and a perpetrator of abuse. If you participate in a community (such as TRP) that actively teaches people to manipulate others for their own benefit (for example), being called on that abusive behavior is not invalidating the abuse you have experienced.
And also no one is entitled to have their experience of abuse validated before they stop abusive behaviors.
[–]JamesGollinger 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
So are you arguing that MRAs are inherently abusive? I think it's a pretty big stretch to equate pickup artists with MRAs, though there may be some overlap.
No one is entitled to having their experiences validated period. However, if I'm trying to help someone, I need to understand and empathise with their situation, no? I guess it comes down to what your core goal is; helping victims of abuse or calling out perpetrators of abuse.
[–]HeForeverBleeds 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Being an MRA does not equate being a perpetrator of abuse any more than being a feminist does
[–]nitzua 7 points8 points9 points (17 children) | Copy Link
you can't provide one credible 'problematic' example and you know it.
[–]invah -4 points-3 points-2 points (16 children) | Copy Link
Yes, so this right here is what I am trying to avoid in Abuse, Interrupted.
[–]nitzua 6 points7 points8 points (14 children) | Copy Link
being asked to provide examples of why you demonize the men's rights movement?
[–]invah -4 points-3 points-2 points (13 children) | Copy Link
Firstly, I didn't "demonize" the men's rights movement. I said it was problematic.
Secondly, you didn't ask for me to provide examples, you outright stated that I couldn't.
Thirdly, this exchange is precisely why I think Abuse, Interrupted is not a good resource for participants of this subreddit.
[–]BranchOfSins 5 points6 points7 points (7 children) | Copy Link
You seem to be stereotyping this subreddit into complete anti feminists though. The fact you consider the MRA a problem is kinda worrying in the sense that you don’t consider parts of all movements worrying., for example the killallmen tag that is going around surely makes you sceptical about some parts of feminism?
Secondly, the other commenter does seem like he is picking fights about the infrastructure rather than doing anything constructive. There are male resources but they are very scarce and often backed up with a solid amount of ‘get help, don’t be a rapist’ kind of helplines.
I think you are kind of biased as well which makes me fear for subreddits like the one that you moderate, the worst part is the comment pinned on the poor guys article reading
Now that there could do a few things for the original poster or readers.
1: Irritate then as you are specifically assuming all men’s rights are anti feminism.
2: Upset the original poster as it seems like you are more bothered about keeping peace, which I personally think is okay but could be handled in a better way.
3: Make the strongly opinionated feminists who hate any kind of MRA happy and use your subreddit more often.
And to be honest the way it is worded seems like it is meant to be provocative rather than peace keeping...
Anyway from one human to another, don’t judge one book by its cover whilst only picking out the good parts of another.
Cheers
[–]invah 0 points1 point2 points (6 children) | Copy Link
So I am attempting to prevent a very specific type of argumentative commenting style that I have seen in MRA-adjacent communities, and one that I personally find toxic and don't want to spend my time dealing with.
When someone comments in the subreddit from an anti-men perspective, I shut that down as well. But I personally consider MRA communities to be toxic, which is why Abuse, Interrupted is not a good resource for this subreddit.
I am taking note of your criticism in terms of whether the moderator note is appropriate. The intent was to communicate that Abuse, Interrupted is not a 'safe place' for MRA viewpoints and the exact specific argument that is occurring in this thread right now.
[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
An MRA viewpoint is that men can be abused and there aren't enough resources for them.
So you reject that?
[–]BranchOfSins 3 points4 points5 points (1 child) | Copy Link
So i will preface this by saying dont read it as argumentative but as advice.
Im gonna be honest, you are seeing one side of the coin and not the other. Whether that is from the nature of the subreddit that you moderate or from something external but it is causing you to seem extremely against male rights. This is why you are drawing the comments that you are recieving on this sub. There are a number of people who are anti feminist within this sub, there are a large number of people who are anti mens rights in TwoX but the treatment that you are giving them are different hence why you are recieving the comments you are getting.
But rather than waiting for an anti-female comment you have actively stated that you are against the concept of MRA commenting correct? You do not want any comments whether it be from someone who is neutral such as myself or an extreme anti feminist?
Correct, you have a stigma against one set of communities and not the other which leads back to my initial comment. You may remove any anti-male comments but you are not going out of your way to stop them from putting them there in the first place meaning you have prejudice towards us.
Hence why the discussion is happening here. I checked out your subreddit before posting so that i knew the nature which was where i saw the moderator comment. You will be suprised to find that there are people on here who genuinley want equality and not just talking trash about women...
Good luck with your sub, try not to feed the people who are trolls on here though...
Cheers.
[–]GoneMYway[S] 3 points4 points5 points (2 children) | Copy Link
My concern is your specific vilification of the MRM. When similar arguments could be formed about specific feminist communities.
I'm also perplexed by this statement "not a safe place for MRA viewpoints"
What is an MRA viewpoint? Isn't the OP in this AI post posting an MRA viewpoint that there appear to be none or very few services for men, or that are at the very least, gender neutral and without the view of men as abusers first?
[–]tmone 2 points3 points4 points (3 children) | Copy Link
dude, YOU are being the contentious trouble maker her. lol. you can't provide one single example of why /r/mensrights is "problematic" other than it does not align with YOUR personal ideology.
You start the trouble and then have the balls to suggest the blowback you recieve is an example of why you ban mensrights commenters?
hilarious.
[–]invah -2 points-1 points0 points (2 children) | Copy Link
Getting brigaded, something I explicitly requested against, is enough of an example.
[–]tmone 4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
ahh..i see. well i thought it was because mensrights is "problematic" and when pressured, you cant even cite specific examples.
[–]tmone 4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
so i actually sub to both subs and you banned me from that place. why?
[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
In the modern feminist cult that's pretty much the same thing.
[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Citing your claims?
[–]JakeDC 8 points9 points10 points (3 children) | Copy Link
Sounds like you are part of the problem and want to silence potentially helpful conversations.
[–]invah -1 points0 points1 point (2 children) | Copy Link
Abuse, Interrupted directly addresses the issues that affect men without framing it in the MRA framework and issues that affect women without framing it in a feminist framework.
I am also not trying to make my life more complicated by getting in the middle of this particular ideological slapfight.
[–]JakeDC 8 points9 points10 points (1 child) | Copy Link
But you can't meaningfully tell the story of abused men, the societal reaction to them, and the lack of resources available to them without talking about today's feminism.
[–]invah 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
My goal is to support victims of abuse and people trying to stop the cycle of abuse. I discuss issues that affect men, including societal issues, without getting involved in feminism v. MRA.
[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 4 points5 points6 points (15 children) | Copy Link
So you support the Duluth model which holds men can't be abused?
[–]invah 1 point2 points3 points (14 children) | Copy Link
Absolutely not.
[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 0 points1 point2 points (13 children) | Copy Link
But that would put you on the (gasp) MRA side of this issue and opposed to feminism!
[–]invah 0 points1 point2 points (12 children) | Copy Link
I am not anti-men's rights, nor am I pro-feminist.
[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 1 point2 points3 points (11 children) | Copy Link
But you've been openly critical of men's rights and have defended feminism.
[–]invah -1 points0 points1 point (10 children) | Copy Link
My issue is with MRA-related communities. My understanding was that this was discretely separate from men's rights.
How have I defended feminism?
[–]aldernaft 0 points1 point2 points (9 children) | Copy Link
You stickied a message on a post that implied MRAs were anti-feminist, just to start. The double-standard of discrimination that you adhere to is downright insulting.
[–]invah -2 points-1 points0 points (8 children) | Copy Link
I disagree with your assessment.
[–]aldernaft 0 points1 point2 points (7 children) | Copy Link
Good thing you can do so without getting banned from this subreddit and having your comments deleted
[–]AshenMacaroon 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Dude we aren’t anti feminist