How would you respond to this?

rogerwatersbitch · 2014-03-27T00:49:44+00:00

"the MRM is nothing but a hate group because all of men's issues are caused by patriarchy"

So fighting against the problems of men caused by the (make believe) system they are also fighting against is hate?

Get yourself some new, smarter friends.

warspite88 · 2014-03-27T01:08:19+00:00

the way you debate them is you say this "do you even care about men?" if they say yes "regardless of patriarchy, men need help, how do you propose men get help?" if they say feminism then "how has feminism helped men in 40 years?"

MRM is a movement meant to help men, its as simple as that, regardless of patriarchy bullshit or feminism or green men from mars... MRM is about saving lives, its about human rights, its about helping men. your friends can call it hate, i wouldnt call them friends.

mean0dean0 · 2014-03-26T23:37:27+00:00

1) MRAs don't blame women for the problems of our feminist landscape, we blame feminism. Feminism is NOT an institution that promotes equality of the sexes, it is an institution that promotes women's issues. All other causes are secondary to the promotion of women's issues, including equality. If anybody challenges you on that fact, ask them why feminists have not changed the name of their discipline now that women are living longer, being given more opportunities, achieving the majority of degrees at all levels of education, and have closed the wage gap to such an extent that only women's own choices now reflect any remaining differences in wages.

It should also be noted that Men's Rights does not promote equality either; we just simply have nowhere near the political power, lobbying money, or academic influence to promote our issues above and beyond the issues of women. Egalitarianism promotes equality between the sexes, but people are by nature partisan.

2) Patriarchy quite clearly exists--in Sharia law, in patriarchal countries where women are actually identifiably second-class citizens. Patriarchy does NOT exist simply because women feel the pressure to live up to the standards of beauty or fashion or sexual behavior that their own chosen media sells them. Fashion magazines and movie romances and music videos and designer jeans/bags/shoes/hair/makeup/etc. do not constitute Patriarchy--they constitute consumerism. If women didn't buy them, drool over them, and constantly judge others based on their possession of them, the market for $800 Dolce and Gabbana handbags would not exist. Tell your friends to stop trying to find The Patriarchy where it doesn't exist and spend their time fighting it where it can quite easily be found in the religious and legal practices of actual patriarchal cultures.

SilencingNarrative · 2014-03-27T04:02:02+00:00

Patriarchy theory is a conspiracy theory of history. It is the idea that most men took advantage of most women for the bulk of history. If gives men no credit for having played the role of cannon fodder and workhorse. It considers their wholesale sacrifice a priviledge.

Women are the only oppressed class in all of history whose oppressors went into the fields and worked for them.

FrankReynolds · 2014-03-26T23:09:52+00:00

patriarchy

As soon as that word is used, I wouldn't respond at all. People who blame things on "the patriarchy" aren't going to change their view, so it's a useless task.

Essemd · 2014-03-26T23:10:47+00:00

Ok, tell them to name all issues on their agenda that women face not caused by patriarchy and play the same game they did.

aussietoads · 2014-03-27T01:32:45+00:00

Ask them to show you the Patriarchy. Then watch them doublespeak their way into a corner as they try to define something which doesn't exist.

TheJusticeCock · 2014-03-27T04:25:23+00:00

I would respond by not being friends with people like that...

JimmyTheIntern · 2014-03-27T04:50:37+00:00

"The Patriarchy? Are you sure it wasn't ghosts? I'm pretty sure it was ghosts."

Seriously, though. "Patriarchy" is nothing more than a $5 word for "daddy's fault." You aren't going to get anywhere by trying to rationally engage children who believe bogeyMEN caused all of the world's problems.

If you do still want to talk with these people, the best thing you can do is ask questions and see if they'll end up thinking themselves out of their flawed ideology. "If the men's rights movement is fighting against issues caused by the patriarchy, why doesn't feminism consider them allies?" "What is feminism doing to address the men's issues caused by the patriarchy?" "If the patriarchy is causing these problems for men, why would the men need to organize for change? If men have this institutional "patriarchal" power, wouldn't they simply make any beneficial changes directly without the need of a men's rights movement at all?"

Black_caped_man · 2014-03-27T00:04:45+00:00

Warning: I went on a little bit of a rant, tl;dr at the bottom.

Say for arguments sake that all men's problems did come as a result of patriarchy, how would that make the MRM useless?

Sure, feminism is fighting patriarchy, but since the MRM wants equality too and that means also fighting the patriarchy, since in this example patriarchy is the root of all injustice and oppression. So they are both fighting the patriarchy, the difference is that the MRM looks at the issue from a different POV. Feminism, by definition is fighting from the womens POV for women. MRM takes the other side and fights from the men's POV for men. If we want a world of equality shouldn't the MRM be welcomed?

Sure, the MRM operates on the belief (IMO proven belief, but still) that patriarchy is not the root of all injustice. Still, we are fighting injustice and for equality, based on the assumption that evil (for lack of a better word) is a human condition and not a gendered one.

Looking around this sub one is likely to see some controversial thoughts and ideas (controversial in the sense that I'd say the entire movement is still controversial) and some hyperbole and (sometimes) unfair generalizations. You may also see the odd chauvinistic (and maybe even what with a long stretch could be construed as misogyny though I would rather call it gynophobic) statement, these are often downvoted heavily after some time. There will be harsh language and statements of harsh reality but that is necessary when freely discussing ideas. And lastly of course there is some cirklejerking and bias of ideas here, it's a specialized sub, what did you expect? You wouldn't sit in on the debate within a certain political party and expect them to agree with the thoughts and ideas of the opposing party now do you?

TL;DR Short answer, the MRM fights for equality but from a different perspective and with a different philosophy than feminism. The ideas are controversial and as such may seem extreme but given closer open minded inspection are actually fully valid and not hate.

Pecanpig · 2014-03-26T23:40:58+00:00

Don't bother trying to change their minds, the best you can hope for it to make them look like idiots publicly and influence third parties.

Nomenimion · 2014-03-27T00:09:35+00:00

What patriarchy?

Crimson_D82 · 2014-03-26T23:48:28+00:00

I would respond by not being their friend anymore.

Bartab · 2014-03-27T08:07:00+00:00

EDIT: To clarify, they had two major points: All problems for men are caused by the patriarchy, and the MRM is a hate group because we blame women for our problems.

Such irony.

Roddy0608 · 2014-03-27T09:47:12+00:00

Ask why this patriarchy thing exists. If it's to grant male privilege, then ask how men have issues. If this patriarchy thing is real, it's obviously not functioning very well.

Ask for examples of how MRAs blame women. Ask for examples of hate.

caxica · 2014-03-27T09:52:06+00:00

Get smarter friends

Bla34112 · 2014-03-26T23:46:58+00:00

"That is biased because it supports men

facepalm...

Everyone is biased. Duh!

rightsbot · 2014-03-26T23:08:16+00:00

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TracyMorganFreeman · 2014-03-27T15:31:36+00:00

It's just saying "disagreeing X is caused by Y is hateful because X is caused Y". It's just a big non sequitur.

The_Patriarchy · 2014-03-27T18:36:35+00:00

All problems for men are caused by the patriarchy

Feminists lobbied for and achieved enactment of the Tender Years doctrine, the lingering effects of which are the ultimate cause of the custody disparity. Prior to their efforts, men received custody by default. Feminist groups also fight against any proposals for a presumption of shared-parenting.

Feminists created the Duluth Model of DV and fought for its inclusion across the country, which is the ultimate cause of "primary aggressor" laws.

Feminists fought against efforts to repeal the Bradley Amendment, ensuring that impoverished men will continue to be thrown into debtor's prisons for "crimes" such as losing their job.

If "patriarchy" caused those problems, then feminists are patriarchy.

EDIT: and you should probably Google "patriarchy debunked" or something along those lines, because it's a bullshit conspiracy theory/devil-figure that is repeatedly redefined to suit their argument.

and the MRM is a hate group because we blame women for our problems.

A) Blaming feminists != blaming women

B) The issues facing men are complicated. Some of them definitely are a result of feminist efforts, and some of them are a result of conservatism/traditionalism. Many in the MRM definitely do place blame at the feet of feminism for a lot of those issues...because blame is deserved.

C) blaming a particular group doesn't make one a hate group. If it did, feminists, anti-racists, and Communists would all be "hate groups" for blaming men, whites, and the bourgeoisie.

Title	How would you respond to this?
Author	H2owsome
Upvotes	17
Comments	43
Date	March 26, 2014 11:07 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/21ght1/how_would_you_respond_to_this/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/how-would-you-respond-to-this.1002331 https://theredarchive.com/post/1002331

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