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Swaziland bans "Rape-provoking" miniskirts, implies men can not control their actions. (X-post from r/worldnews)

kinyutaka

December 24, 2012

39 upvotes

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http://www.indianexpress.com/news/swaziland-bans-rapeprovoking-miniskirts-lowrise-jeans/1049615/

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Post Information

Title	Swaziland bans "Rape-provoking" miniskirts, implies men can not control their actions. (X-post from r/worldnews)
Author	kinyutaka
Upvotes	39
Comments	212
Date	December 24, 2012 5:58 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/15drso/swaziland_bans_rapeprovoking_miniskirts_implies/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/swaziland-bans-rape-provoking-miniskirts-implies.1005800 https://theredarchive.com/post/1005800

Comments

[+]MaunaLoona 13 years ago* [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

Taken to its logical conclusion, these laws lead to women being required to wear a niqab. If you ever wondered why muslim women dress like that, well, this is how it all starts.

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[+]MaunaLoona 13 years ago* [recovered] (47 children) | Copy Link

By your logic men deserve to have their wealth stripped by a woman because lots of men accumulate wealth to attract women.

This already happens. It's called taxes, marriage, alimony, child support and our biased court system.

[–]CosmicKeys 33 points34 points35 points 13 years ago (46 children) | Copy Link

[+]MaunaLoona 13 years ago* [recovered] (45 children) | Copy Link

Wait, are you saying when women wear sexy clothes it's not to attract male sexual attention?

That includes makeup, high heels, lipstick, and other ways of accentuating secondary sex characteristics.

And anyone who suggests they do it to attract males is a rape apologist?

lol

[–]CosmicKeys 63 points64 points65 points 13 years ago (41 children) | Copy Link

[+]MaunaLoona 13 years ago* [recovered] (18 children) | Copy Link

How did you go from attracting males to opening themselves to be raped? That's quite a leap of logic there. Care to fill in the intermediate steps for me?

[–]CosmicKeys 19 points20 points21 points 13 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

[+]NWOslave -52 points-51 points-50 points 13 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

My comment is based in reality. Men and women are different. When a woman dresses and does everything she can to amplify and exaggerate her sexual readiness to reproduce, that's a lack of sexual control. Women do this to display their reproductive worth and availability. It's simply a total lack of self control. Make-up, high heels, stockings, short skirts, perfume, jewelry, etc is all done to enhance their sexual reproductive quality. It's simply acting like an animal in heat in hopes of attracting the highest male they can get for reproduction.

Condoms and birth control don't change the reason of why women act like that. They simply allow women to have many more opportunities to mate with many men while continuing to bag the most desirable mate they can. The desire and reason doesn't change because of condoms. The actions are what they are. An animal instinct.

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[+]MaunaLoona 13 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Go back to SRD and stay there.

Edit: Wow, so many downvotes in a 4 day old thread. Hello Subreddit "We're not a downvote brigade" Drama.

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[+]NWOslave -28 points-27 points-26 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Please. You continually excuse womens bad behavior. You pretend like a woman being able to have sex isn't as easy as falling off a log. And you judge a man by his access to a womans pussy. You've done it countless times. You did it to me.

You cry rape apologist when I did nothing of the sort. Men and women are different, inherently. No social programming will change that.

Women acting like animals in heat, in their own way, which is exactly what they're doing is the flaws of women. Men acting like animals in heat, in their own way, which is exactly what they're doing is the flaws of men.

Both are seperate because men and women are different. One does not excuse the other.

What's the difference between you and a run of the mill feminist? You excuse womens bad behavior, which is exactly what it is, while condeming mens bad behavior, which is exactly what it is.

The same old cry. rape apologist. I want to do whatever I want to do, but men must be in control and act like a gentleman at all times.

[–][deleted] 15 points16 points17 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Embogenous 5 points6 points7 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The entire point of wearing mini-skirts is to hyper sexualize yourself to sexually arouse and attract the attention of men.

So the only reason women ever want to feel attractive is for the sake of men?

Are you aware that women are autonomous and that their lives don't automatically revolve around men?

How does your belief explain why a woman would make herself appear more attractive when a man isn't going to be seeing her?

Attractiveness is valued, it's a positive trait. A person, regardless of gender, can feel good about themselves for being attractive in the exact same way they can feel good about themselves for being intelligent or accomplished. One person makes some awesome food and pats themself on the back, another does a really difficult workout and pats themself on the back, another gets dressed up so they look great and pats themself on the back.

You can also show off to your own gender. If I do something awesome, I like to tell people. I code games, and when I get something that's looking really good, I show it to my friends as I'm proud of it. Attractiveness is the same - if a woman feels she's looking awesome, she wants her friends to see (men can do the same but it's much less common).

And finally there's the explanation you've offered - women dressing in an attractive way because they want men to be attracted. This could be a self-esteem thing, in the same way as the last two points (i.e. they feel good that men are checking them out), or they could be trying to pick up a dude to bang. That has nothing to do with a lack of contol. If a man wants to pick up a woman and have sex, then chances are he's going to be trying to look his best.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]tquiz 4 points5 points6 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]WinterFresh04 -3 points-2 points-1 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, shit. Nice job with the drama you started in here. Gotta say, I'm impressed.

Anyways, I'm not a MRA but that won't stop me for saying my opinion on this. I, personally, don't agree with most of what you have been proposing so far. You are missing the big picture here. Sure, many women enjoy wearing sexualizing clothes but rarely because they want to fuck. They want to be pretty, they want to be in the center of attention, they use this to get advantage in many social situations - there are a LOT of reasons to do it. The fact that you are dismising all these is quite offensive. They obviously don't do it because they want to be raped. Well, most of them anyway. Can't say I haven't heard stories where women do some really perverted shit but that is a fringe minority and besides the point.

You might also want to notice that, unlike wearing sexualizing clothes, very few people are into actual rape. Equating wearing sexualizing clothes with being an animal into heat is just plain retarded. I usually appreciate a person that challanges the hivemind but, please, put a little thought in it, will ya?

[+]SarahC -24 points-23 points-22 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]MaunaLoona 13 years ago* [recovered] (34 children) | Copy Link

How dare you say something bad about women!!! Women are wonderful! One thousand downvotes for you!

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[–]shoshanish 11 points12 points13 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[+]MaunaLoona 13 years ago* [recovered] (30 children) | Copy Link

One thing I don't agree with you on. These women do not lack control, they are getting exactly what they want. Why else would they be wearing miniskirts when there is literally an epidemic of rape in Swaziland?

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Late to the party but would like to correct you on one of only many things-in terms of animals you DO school and teach them not to act on sexual impulses or "teasing". I train horses for a living and handle stallions for breeding. If I walk a stud past a pasture full of mares in heat, I expect him to act like a perfect gentleman, not drag me over to the fence and try to mount a mare. He can talk to the mares and look at them all they want but they are trained and disciplined from an early age that there is a time and a place for breeding. I have several stallions I can walk within feet of a hot mare without him blinking an eye, but when brought to the breeding shed to be collected or mount a mare, he knows it's time. Is it different in the wild? Sure. But these horses are domesticated, and humans are no longer wild animals either.

Why should human men not be held to the same standard as I hold my animals to?

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True enough, I guess. But for the most part most women in the west lack any control at all. Particularly in the cities they all have that practiced walk where the sashey just a bit. If a man they unconciously find reproductive worthy compliments them, or even if they see a man they unconciously find reproductive worthy, they shake the old reproductive mechanism a little more exagerated. If a man who they find totally unacceptable talks to them the reproductive machine clenches up tighter than a bankers vault and they walk in a dead straight line. No sashey for you. The reproductive machine is offline.

In the old days women were taught by their mothers and grandmothers to control themselves since it's was known women need to be taught sexual control. Now a days we accept that women can't control themselves and blame mens evil vision for the dastardly male gaze.

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Now THAT I can agree with (belatedly); there seems to be a prevailing attitude that if they didn't take certain steps then the offender should get off scott-free.

I have never heard of this, but it still seems to be implied against me.

I will agree with you that there ARE certain things that victims of crime could do to reduce the chances of a crime happening to them (not just rape in particular) but some of them are only obvious in hindsight. It just doesn't sit well when you tell someone "well.. yanno... if you would have done X this wouldn't have happened."

I agree, and that's why I think this is such a sticky topic. But some things are pretty obvious, storing money under a ceramic turtle is a bad way to store money and will likely get you robbed, promoting your sexuality and fertility while walking around drunk at 2AM is one of those things which is VERY obviously going to increase your chances of being raped. hindsight or not, it's a stupid thing to do.

Wearing red lipstick by itself is also an act to display sexual readynes, but a less obvious one. I wouldn't blame someone simply for that.

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1: Manhood Academy made that poster, it's a group of "men" who are actual misogynists, even AVFM (who some see as a more extreme site) is tame compared to them, and disavows them.

let's put it in our context. If a woman walks up to you while you're waiting in line to enter a speech by Dr. Warren Farrell, and calls you a rapist, a pedofile and a woman hater and you punch her. Who is at fault?

You are, you lashed out physically verses words. Same with the above statement about walking into a predominately black neighborhood and screaming racial insults. Sure, you're an asshole for doing so but the person who assaults you is still in the wrong for doing so.

When a person is drunk and laying helpless in public, sure they are "asking for trouble." however, it is the person who acts upon that weakness that is in the wrong. The helpless individual put themselves in the position to have these actions put upon them, but it takes the actions of another to those actions to come to pass.

If a bank had a stack of $100 bills left on the counter. If you take it knowing that it is not yours, you're still guilty of theft. The bank is surely foolish to leave that money there, but you're still criminal for taking it.

Edit: Furthermore, it is not "Entitlement" to expect people not to rape you regardless of your current state. In an ideal world men and women would not have to fear rape at all. Also it is not "Entitlement" to wear whatever you want, that's just basic human dignity regardless of how it may look.

[+]Pecanpig -13 points-12 points-11 points 13 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

I was not aware of that.
She is at fault for getting herself punched in the face, and I am at fault for getting myself arrested.

I'm not saying that assault is ever right, but that someone who brings it upon themselves isn't really a true "victim".

That drunk this is more of an inaction than an action.

Yeah, and that bank would look like dumbasses if they then whined about 10,000$ (a stack of 100's) being stolen from them. Nobody would think twice, they would just say "well that was stupid of you".

Edit: Furthermore, it is not "Entitlement" to expect people not to rape you regardless of your current state. In an ideal world men and women would not have to fear rape at all. Also it is not "Entitlement" to wear whatever you want, that's just basic human dignity regardless of how it may look.

I didn't agree with 100% of that poster, I was just pointing out how it's better that most of the "remember, if she's a girl, don't rape her" posters. Regardless, wearing whatever you want without consequence would be a privilage, not a right, not in this world.

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[–]kinyutaka0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You are wrong. The perpetrator's intent is generally important in rape cases. Many guys have gotten off in rape cases because they proved that they believed they had consent. Unfortunately, the he said/she said nature of the crime does seem to make it so the man is guilty until proven innocent, which is where your anger seems to come in.

It is one reason that I will refuse to indulge in "rape fantasy" or rough sex, because it would be hard to prove consent or tell if she changes her mind. The act of penetration is not illegal, the act of forcing penetration is. If she is kicking and screaming at you, calling for help, it is rape, regardless of their level of dress or actions.

Even in the overly extreme example I gave, it is possible that the girl was in the position because of a bet or dare, and she wasn't really looking for sex. You still have to get consent before you do your business.

[–]Pecanpig1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You are wrong. The perpetrator's intent is generally important in rape cases.

But it is supposed to be the only factor...it is literally what decides whether it is or is not rape.

Many guys have gotten off in rape cases because they proved that they believed they had consent.

Obviously not enough.

Unfortunately, the he said/she said nature of the crime does seem to make it so the man is guilty until proven innocent,

Honestly, just get rid of "rape" from the legal system. It's a rare enough crime that I don't see it as being worth pursuing. (in our current manner, where pursuing it does far more harm than good)

which is where your anger seems to come in.

I ain't even mad.

It is one reason that I will refuse to indulge in "rape fantasy" or rough sex, because it would be hard to prove consent or tell if she changes her mind. The act of penetration is not illegal, the act of forcing penetration is. If she is kicking and screaming at you, calling for help, it is rape, regardless of their level of dress or actions.

Agreed. But this seems to only be the case in the minority of rape cases. And as I said, while it would be rape, had she gone up to someone naked with a tattoo saying "fuck me" giving out condoms, I would feel no pity, and that the situation should be dealt with differently in court. (this isn't just dressing like a slut, this would be well over the line of "asking for it")

Even in the overly extreme example I gave, it is possible that the girl was in the position because of a bet or dare, and she wasn't really looking for sex.

The point wasn't intent of her actions, but accepting of consequences for those actions, regardless of intent.

You still have to get consent before you do your business.

The sad state of the world today, where it is considered to be rape unless clearly stated otherwise...what is this, the 13th century?

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[+]Pecanpig -11 points-10 points-9 points 13 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

[–]InfinitelyThirsting 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Pecanpig -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Actually, statistics on the clothing worn by rape victims shows that women who are provocatively dressed are the least likely to be raped; a tee shirt and jeans is the most common outfit.

Really?. Does this include all forms of rape or only the late night "stranger rape" to which we are discussing? Really though, that's like saying the Ford Focus is the least safe car because of how many accidents and thefts they have compared to something more exotic like a Ferarri. (I would appreciate a source, but it's not all that necessary)

nterviews with rapists have demonstrated that clothing was not a factor in their choice.

What kind of rapists?.

And if all eyes are on the girl with the miniskirt, well--it's awfully hard to rape the center of attention, isn't it?

Nope. Unless you are suggesting rapists rape in plain sight, but nobody see's them because they are raping the ugly fat chick in the corner.

[–]WellHeresMyFourthAcc 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]Pecanpig -2 points-1 points0 points 13 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]WellHeresMyFourthAcc 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

Hmm... I think you missed the analogy. If you got shot for saying "hi" in a minority neighborhood, you wouldn't be blamed as the "idiot" in the situation. Hopefully someone would actually address the problem of misperception rather than saying you should've been safer by not even communicating.

I am trying to reduce rapes, and you blow that off saying miniskirt restrictions are a bigger issue?...wtf?

No. I'm saying you're taking the wrong path to "reduce rapes." Sometimes you need to stop giving the victims an undue share of the blame and just flat-out face the problem.

to attract "mr right, but it effects every male (and females, in a different way)

No. Has it ever occurred to you that people dress themselves based on their own preferences? Women aren't dressing for men. They're dressing for themselves (most of the time). They actually want to look good- and not for you or someone else to gawk at them in the hopes that you're "Mr. Right." They are people too.

100% of the blame should be on the victim and that there should be no consequences

It certainly seems like it based on how you're bashing rape victims as "sluts." At the very least you grant them an undue share of the blame, which is absolute bullshit and very much anti-egalitarian.

All I want is a realistic view of the situation and for people to not have pity for idiots.

Great. Let's arrest that guy for saying "hi" because he obviously should've been more careful instead of altering his actions to attract Mr. Good Friend, even though they have an effect on everyone.

Has it ever occurred to you that your expectations are absolutely ridiculous? The victims are dressing a certain way without any regard to what you or any rapist thinks because they have a right to look how they want within reasonable limits, and people like you are completely misunderstanding them. That's the problem.

[–]Pecanpig -3 points-2 points-1 points 13 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

Hmm... I think you missed the analogy. If you got shot for saying "hi" in a minority neighborhood, you wouldn't be blamed as the "idiot" in the situation. Hopefully someone would actually address the problem of misperception rather than saying you should've been safer by not even communicating.

I agree to an extent. But the difference is that saying "hi" is only ever meant to be an informal greeting, worlds away from any kind of sexuality. Change "hi" to "Hi, I'm ready and willing for sex" and things change. (the basic message when wearing sexually enhancing garments)

No. I'm saying you're taking the wrong path to "reduce rapes." Sometimes you need to stop giving the victims an undue share of the blame and just flat-out face the problem.

This is where we have a simple disagreeance, I do not see this level of "blame" as undue. And how do you define "the problem"? I see it in a bit more of a complex light, just like any other crime, it's not just punishing those who commit it but prevention. If this can reduce rapes, than means less reports, which means more manpower to sort out the remainder.

No. Has it ever occurred to you that people dress themselves based on their own preferences? Women aren't dressing for men. They're dressing for themselves (most of the time). They actually want to look good- and not for you or someone else to gawk at them in the hopes that you're "Mr. Right." They are people too.

Yes, and that idea was debunked. We are all people, but we are also all animals, women are just in a constant state of heat and as such constantly trying to attract mates. The problem is a lack of restraint which was found in previous generations.

It certainly seems like it based on how you're bashing rape victims as "sluts." At the very least you grant them an undue share of the blame, which is absolute bullshit and very much anti-egalitarian.

This is a common misconception, people hear the word "consequence/causation" and "woman" and get all riled up before knowing what's happening. And as said before, I do not think I am placing an undue amount of blame on the victim in many of these situations, and in fact only place blame on the victim in the minority of cases. Also, worth noting that I do not see "slut" as a truly negative word, but rather just a quick and generally quite accurate way to describe some women, it's a time saver.

Great. Let's arrest that guy for saying "hi" because he obviously should've been more careful instead of altering his actions to attract Mr. Good Friend, even though they have an effect on everyone.

Find me some evidence that saying "hi" increases your odds of being attacked (when compared to something like "hello" for example) along with some kind of hypothesis as to why and we will discuss it.

Has it ever occurred to you that your expectations are absolutely ridiculous?

My expectation for the law to be rational and investigate matters like these properly, or my expectation for people as a while to not pity those who are victims of their own actions? Or do you mean my expectation for women to take responsibility? (last one is somewhat unrelated, but you would be surprised how much flak I get for that idea, even from the conceptual standpoint)

The victims are dressing a certain way without any regard to what you or any rapist thinks because they have a right to look how they want within reasonable limits, and people like you are completely misunderstanding them.

I think that's the problem, they aren't considering other factors with regards to what they wear. Now in a perfect world of course everyone would be naked and things would be fine, but this isn't a perfect world and we have to make do with reality, your clothing effects how people treat you, and if you dress like a prostitute/slut then you will be treated like one (not suggesting either should be raped, but it's more likely to happen).

I still think women dress the way they do to attract men, whether they know it or not. Ever wonder about red lipstick?...

[–]WellHeresMyFourthAcc 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Pecanpig1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

One of which was not "was the hypothetical actually real?"

We had a real argument going on before the hypothetical one you know.

I've already mentioned them in my other comments. Anything explicitly sexual worn with the intent of attracting sex in public from strangers, preferably without consent. Miniskirt doesn't seem to fall in this area.

If miniskirts don't fall under that, then what would? You would think a garment designed for the sole purpose of showing your posterior to the opposite sex would be classed as "Anything explicitly sexual worn with the intent of attracting sex in public from strangers," along with assless chaps and, well. Yeah, miniskirts are prettymuch the female equivilant/oriented version of assless chaps.

No idea what you meant with "preferably without consent." though.

[–]WellHeresMyFourthAcc0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

We had a real argument going on before the hypothetical one you know.

Great, and you can't like the two by demanding statistics about saying "hi" when it's utterly irrelevant.

If miniskirts don't fall under that, then what would?

Depends on the context, but lingerie in public/a stripper uniform would do in the general context of modern everyday America.

You would think a garment designed for the sole purpose of showing your posterior to the opposite sex

Doesn't seem to be in the history. It was worn by slaves and fighters in Greco-Roman times and the modern design was as a fashion trend mimicking the Mini. Kind of ridiculous to perceive at sexual, don't you think?

But let's suppose it were sexual. Doesn't mean that in the modern context it's worn as a demand for rape. Given its popularity, it's ridiculous to assert that people wear it because they're "asking for rape." It's like saying people listen to Bieber because they want to get punched.

Just praising the aggressors.

Yeah, miniskirts are prettymuch the female equivilant/oriented version of assless chaps.

I think you're talking about micro-miniskirts, which haven't caught on as much yet and aren't nearly as accepted in modern American culture- and certainly not as much in that of Swaziland (of course, given the behaviors of their king, one must wonder whether the country really has much of a culture at this point or whether it's let the autocrat piss all over its dignity).

No idea what you meant with "preferably without consent." though.

Because the entire notion of someone asking for rape is absurd.

(Just warning you before we continue- it might be better to use messages if you're bothered in any way by people going through and downvoting- Silly concern, I know, but I understand if you have a problem, with people following this and downvoting.)

[–]Pecanpig0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Great, and you can't like the two by demanding statistics about saying "hi" when it's utterly irrelevant.

What?...

Depends on the context, but lingerie in public/a stripper uniform would do in the general context of modern everyday America.

Yeah...miniskirts...just google "stripper" and "miniskirt", it's a fairly typical part of their "uniform".

Doesn't seem to be in the history. It was worn by slaves and fighters in Greco-Roman times and the modern design was as a fashion trend mimicking the Mini. Kind of ridiculous to perceive at sexual, don't you think?

You mean those poor people who had nothing else to wear?...yeah, that's necessity.

But let's suppose it were sexual. Doesn't mean that in the modern context it's worn as a demand for rape. Given its popularity, it's ridiculous to assert that people wear it because they're "asking for rape." It's like saying people listen to Bieber because they want to get punched.

I'm not saying they are actively asking for rape, but rather they are doing so passively.

I think you're talking about micro-miniskirts, which haven't caught on as much yet and aren't nearly as accepted in modern American culture- and certainly not as much in that of Swaziland (of course, given the behaviors of their king, one must wonder whether the country really has much of a culture at this point or whether it's let the autocrat piss all over its dignity).

Doesn't matter, the distinction in this context is non-existant.

Because the entire notion of someone asking for rape is absurd.

Why?...Asking for rape is absurd, the idea of someone doing it isn't.

(Just warning you before we continue- it might be better to use messages if you're bothered in any way by people going through and downvoting- Silly concern, I know, but I understand if you have a problem, with people following this and downvoting.)

Thank you for your concern, but the downvotes from random sheep doesn't bother me. I would rather they read what I say and devote a few braincells to at least thinking about it.

[–]nicemod[M] 12 points13 points14 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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"Decency" as you perceive it is conformity to aggressors' desires. It's like promoting open membership in the Nazi party just so Hitler's henchmen won't rape your ass.

I'm sorry if you see things that way, being dressing in a miniskirt is not "provocative." A stripper outfit is provocative. Lingerie in public is provocative. But a fucking miniskirt is a fashion trend, and although it may be a stupid one, it has nothing to do with a desire to look like a sex fiend in public and all to do with people's desire to appear pleasant. It shouldn't be treated any different from wearing a suit and tie in public (clearly asking to get laid at a frat party) or any reasonable dress choice.

You need to stop judging others' clothing and start judging your perceptions. The MRM is no excuse for misogyny and victim-blaming. Don't delegitimize it by treating it that way.

[+]vicedets -29 points-28 points-27 points 13 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

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