New to MensRights and have a couple questions.

nysv · 2012-08-30T17:42:11+00:00

Human trafficking is mostly women (From children to teens to adults) - I think this is a more important thing to address than a majority of men not getting custody.

Actually, majority of human trafficking is male. Up to 76% according to some statistics, while only 17% is sex trafficking. This is very rarely mentioned, thanks to the bias of media.

Hach8 · 2012-08-30T18:35:45+00:00

1) Whenever Rape is mentioned, someone inevitably brings up prison statistics. How is feminism responsible for this when it's men who do the raping in the prisons? Using the same statistics it is very easy to say "Men rape more than women".

Feminism isn't directly responsible for every problem men face culturally, socially or legally. This does not lessen their culpability as a group for either completely ignoring or being actively hostile to men in other situations.

2) Why do some feminists think that being White Hetero and Male is a bad thing? I had no choice over any of these - it would be the same if I said being Black, Female or Gay is wrong. It doesn't make any sense as these were not choices they made.

You should ask a feminist. They would probably tell you there's nothing "wrong" with being white hetero male, but that your opinion doesn't really matter because you don't know anything as you are constantly subject to white, male and hetero privilege, so you can't possibly understand what struggle or oppression is.

3) I've seen some comments where men tend to feel unjustly treated because they don't conform to gender roles (Stay at home fathers etc). But isn't it men, who are in power, pushing those ideas? Yes there are women who do this, but a majority of "power players" are men. What is MR's stance on this? If men supported the change of gender roles, it would change because we have a majority of power.

No, it's not men in power pushing the ideas. You seem indoctrinated, or at least fully accepting of feminist dogma. Just because men are in power in a lot of high ranking places doesn't mean that the decisions that they make are attributable to all men in general (apex fallacy), and nor does it mean that they are generally making the decisions in the best interest of men. People usually try to make decisions which are in their personal best interest.

4) I love being chivalrous to my wife. I will hold her door open, give her the umbrella if it's raining heavily etc. This is based on me being a a large man and feeling it's my privilege to be able to reduce an amount of suffering felt by my wife - no matter how trivial.

Cool, I guess. I don't think the MRM has a specific problem with this type of behavior. What most MRAs truly object to is the double standard of society and women in general, which both expects this type of behavior, but then also intends to put men below women in general. Feminists tend to say chivalry is just closet misogyny, but when the rubber meets the road, they subscribe to most of the same ideas, few will object to men buying them dinner, etc.

5) A lot of unjust stuff that happens to men is done by men. Why do you feel that Feminists are to blame or that they are influencing this?

What do you mean "done by men"? In general, feminists aren't the only problem facing men or the MRM in general. There is a lot of general social pressures and problems which lead to men being the subject of disparate treatment. The problem with feminism is, again, its double standard and disingenuous nature. Feminism claims to be for equality and "dismantling the patriarchy" but when the "patriarchy" oppresses men in a way that isn't harmful to women, they either ignore or support the "patriarchy". Yes, there are a lot of men in positions of power, but there are a lot of feminists who advocate certain ways which continues to marginalize men. Feminists aren't solely to blame, but they are part of the problem and are generally unwilling to be part of any solution.

6) If MR is about gender equality in all things (Custody, Jail Sentencing etc) why does it have such a bad rep?

Two reasons, it's in opposition to feminism and opposition to traditionalism. The MRM seems to have few political allies. In general, the MRM requires accepting the fact that men are oppressed by society, which is in direct conflict with one of the central tenets of feminism. So, feminists have a huge chip on their shoulder when it comes to men's rights, and feminism is a much more mainstream and politically accepted movement. Many people accept what feminists say as gospel. On the other side, you have the people subscribing to more traditional values which think that there's nothing wrong with men being marginalized because that's just how things should go. The bad rap is mostly due to feminists lying about the MRM, though.

7) Yes men do get unfairly treated in somethings, but I feel there are more pressing matters that should be attended to first. Human trafficking is mostly women (From children to teens to adults) - I think this is a more important thing to address than a majority of men not getting custody.

This is stupid thinking. Sorry to be blunt, but just because there is a problem of potentially bigger magnitude and scope does not mean we should ignore all other problems. I forget if this is a logical fallacy or not, but it should be. It's akin to the argument that no one in the US should ever be unhappy because there are people starving in Africa, or that no aid should help anyone in the US because there is genocide in Darfur. Yes, these are problems, but we can't just fixate on one thing as a society and ignore every other problem.

This train of thought is common among feminists, and why some people say arguments between feminists and MRAs turn into "oppression olympics" with one side arguing that because they are more oppressed, they deserve... something.

In reality though, MRAs just advocate for causes which are ignored by all other groups. You have to realize, it is pointless to ignore the struggles of men in custody cases merely because women are trafficked. They are completely independent subjects. However, with that said many MRAs believe that male specific issues are generally ignored too easily by society in general, and often opposed by popular feminism.

There are tons and tons of advocates to end things like human trafficking. Everything from legal aid organizations to the huge women's lobby of NOW in the US and UN task forces. To further hammer this home, note that no one is opposed to ending human trafficking. The problem is a practical one, akin to stopping crime.

Let's look at paternal rights though. What do we have in support of those? A handful of small father's rights groups and MRAs. No group with a truly national or international presence. Not very many people are paying attention, as fathers are completely denied access to their children but forced to relinquish their money to the mother. Then, to make matters worse, when there IS advocacy to improve the rights of fathers, you have organizations such as NOW, and feminism in general which opposes enhanced or expanded paternal rights.

There are also a plethora of ways that feminism harms men, but primarily it's via the legal and social advocacy. Some of the main things that feminism advocates for that is hostile to men are:

Reduced rights of fathers - An example of this would be NOW's opposition to things like Parental Alienation Syndrome
Reduced requirements for proving rape - increasing the ease at which men can be falsely accused, an example of this would be the recent Title IX Dear Colleague letter
Rejecting male domestic violence victims at shelters - most of which are funded by VAWA, a supposedly gender neutral statute
Increasing female participation in higher education when women already outnumber men by 50% - An example of this is the recent application of Title IX to STEM fields

There are others, but personally I think those are the biggest issues that feminism contributes to. In a nutshell, though, you should stick around and learn more about MRM activism to get a better idea as to how this all fits with your personal viewpoint and experience.

Bad_Acid · 2012-08-30T17:52:29+00:00

It's far more complicated than you think. Men have felt pressure for a long time now, and little by little, the US males have become, like we say, "whipped". We are tough from teachers (mostly female, how ironic), that we are all equal, but that girls need special treatments. We learned from movies that we have to be the prince. We learn from everywhere that we are all equal but that men have to pay for dinner, pay for this, pay for that. Feminists have made an excellent job at making equality for things that are bad for women, without withdrawing what is good for them. In the end, it gives a non-concious guy, that does what he it told to do. Culture evolved, and stopped on one side to continue evolving on the other.

I'm not that old and do not have kids, but I'll try to answer your questions the best I can.

1) Feminists brings the women to the stage of victims, for everything. When they do something, it's society who is to blame, because they are women, kept their weak status to the eye of society, but are now empowered. Which makes them always right. victim + power = everyone pity you, and everyone respects you.

2) For this one, I just think that all the trends like "no more racism, no more homophobia, ...." made everyone love the different and hate the "original". It is long term buried feelings against a class that turned and are now yeah I want to be different, fuck you [insert name]. We oppose being gay to being straight, being black to being white, while we should all make everyone the same, with our differences.

3) Double standard. reflects #1

4) It's funny. Chivalry was invented in the 18th century, while a lot of political murders were committed by stabbing the guy, while hiding behind the door. he entered, stab him. So they decided to make their wife go first. Oh please madame, go first, you are my goddess and I love you. And they would get stabbed instead of the man. A bit like the landmines and Taliban. Now I too feel like I want to do this to my girlfriend, just because it is nice to her. But I won't do it just because they are women. it is not bad at all, it means you care about the person. But not all women are entitled to this just because they have boobs.

5) We are a generation of men raised by women. listen to Tayler Durden my friend ;)

6) Because feminists say that all men are rapist, and men who try to protect men are scum. They are women, therefore we should listen to them. That's our society's motto.

7) I don't know what to answer to this one, I personally don't think it has its place, but if someone has an idea, shoot!

Here is my opinion on what I think.

Bad_Acid · 2012-08-30T18:03:23+00:00

1) Whenever Rape is mentioned, someone inevitably brings up prison statistics. How is feminism responsible for this when it's men who do the raping in the prisons? Using the same statistics it is very easy to say "Men rape more than women".

Feminism is responsible for co-opting the rape culture conversation from black men in prison, and excluding prison rape and arguing for years that men could not be raped. This sort of thing is still going on with feminists down playing female perpetrated sex crimes and feminist NGOs and feminists in the UN ignoring and suppressing information on widespread rape of men in Africa.

Feminists are responsible for responding to prison rape with "what about teh menz lol!"

Its the same story with feminism's treatment of domestic abuse, the whole notion that its gendered is a lie perpetuated by feminism.

ghebert001 · 2012-08-30T17:43:31+00:00

Just because women are more affected by a particular issue doesn't mean that men deserve to be ignored and let's face it...when it comes to issues like rape, trafficking, education and such, male victims are not given the time of day.

demiurgency · 2012-08-30T17:26:08+00:00

Who said that all the injustices that men face are to be blamed on feminists?

But anyway, you should definitely check out the links, FAQs and discussion in the sidebar ---->

burritosandbeer · 2012-08-30T17:49:22+00:00

I've seen some comments where men tend to feel unjustly treated because they don't conform to gender roles (Stay at home fathers etc). But isn't it men, who are in power, pushing those ideas? Yes there are women who do this, but a majority of "power players" are men. What is MR's stance on this? If men supported the change of gender roles, it would change because we have a majority of power.

You're somewhat correct here. CEOs, politicians and those who hold other positions of power are typically men. But you must ask yourself, who do these people care about beside themselves? Take president Obama for example. Not only do his politics stand in stark contrast to egalitarian goals, the side he takes (women/feminism) is taken because he's pandering to them. I have to assume it is not because he sees himself (read: male) as a definite rapist. His 'Dear Colleague' letter, on the other hand, could just as easily have bit him in his ass years ago, no trial, no voice. Imagine if a female had falsely fingered him as a rapist while attending Occidental. No Columbia, no Harvard for Mr. Obama. And certainly no seat in Washington, and definitely no presidency. Yet his preponderance of evidence standard allows for exactly this kind of bullshit to happen to young men across America.

TL;DR: Positions of power attract self-serving assholes.

Edit: In regards to point #4, I really don't think anyone takes issue with you doing things for your loved ones. I'm the same way with my girlfriend. The issue here is when men are seen as lesser simply because they don't extend the courtesy to all women, regardless of familiarity with said women.

EvilPundit · 2012-08-30T19:26:00+00:00

You're making one of the basic mistakes - mixing up "feminists" with "women".

Women are female human beings. Feminists are people who believe in the ideology of feminism, and can be male or female.

Realising this important difference will improve your understanding. Also, reading the links in the sidebar and many of the discussions willhelp.

Welcome, and I hope you hang around!

DavidByron · 2012-08-30T19:31:31+00:00

Whenever Rape is mentioned, someone inevitably brings up prison statistics. How is feminism responsible for this

Feminists have worked hard to make sure society is not aware of male victims or sexual crimes, or female attackers. Research for the last 40 years has shown women beat their husbands about as much as vice versa for example. Another example is the recent survey by the government called the NISVS which reported that men are raped as often outside of prisons and jails as women are. Except it didn't exactly report that because the feminists in charge of it lied and instead reported a much smaller figure for the number of men raped. They justified this by saying it doesn't count as rape if a woman rapes a man. In the same way feminists recently lobbied the FBI to change their definition of rape to one that says women can't rape men.

Now much of the problems men face were always there and feminists simply add their weight to it, helping to make society more and more unequal. That is an example of how they do it - by controlling people's perceptions by distributing lies.

DavidByron · 2012-08-30T19:36:10+00:00

Why do some feminists think that being White Hetero and Male is a bad thing? I had no choice over any of these - it would be the same if I said being Black, Female or Gay is wrong. It doesn't make any sense

Well feminists think being male is bad because they are an anti-male hate movement. That's not really a reason of course. It's just the way they are. There's no rational reason for hate.

The race thing is different. Feminists emphasize "white" even though feminism itself is a white women's movement, because they are trying to steal the legitimate respect and compassion people of goodwill show to genuinely oppressed minorities. Everyone knows there's racism so feminists try to make you think of feminism in the same way. They try to call all men "white males" to try and paint men as racist to further their hatred of men.

EpicJ · 2012-08-30T18:05:21+00:00

1) It is used to show there are males can be victims, there are also many law double standards, when it comes to female on male rape which make it difficult to get figures.

2) Being a white hetero male means "you have all of the power and are privileged so cant face any hardship"

3) True but it's traditionalists rather than just men who push those ideas

4)Nothing wrong with that, it's when you put all women on a pedestal that there is a problem

5) Not everything is feminists fault but they have a tendency to implement things like title ix benefits which women but if a school doesn't have enough female in sports they close down the male programs instead of spending money on getting women interested

6) It's easier to spread lies than to try and use arguments like in 2 to persuade people against us

7) there are a lot of male victims of human trafficking

Or is it that MR is not trying to put mens issues over womens but to include help for men who suffer the same tragedies?

We're trying to say both men and women face problems it's just that they tend to overlook men's problems

misandry_doesnt_real · 2012-08-30T19:29:50+00:00

Whenever Rape is mentioned, someone inevitably brings up prison statistics. How is feminism responsible for this when it's men who do the raping in the prisons? Using the same statistics it is very easy to say "Men rape more than women".

There are a couple reasons prison rape is brought up in discussions of rape. The first of which being it's rape, and therefore happens to be relevant to discussions of rape. The second is that while feminists complain about rape jokes "normalizing and justifying" the rape of women, they completely ignore that prison rape is widely acceptable comedic material. When asked for justifications of this, almost all of their responses completely disregard the humanity of men. As for your point that men rape more than women, such an argument implies that men who get raped deserve it more because they're guilty of the crime committed by other men. It also disregards the surprising number of men raped by women.

Why do some feminists think that being White Hetero and Male is a bad thing? I had no choice over any of these - it would be the same if I said being Black, Female or Gay is wrong. It doesn't make any sense as these were not choices they made.

Feminism believes in the concept of "privilege", which is an invisible, ethereal force that means straight, white, cisgendered men cannot make convincing arguments against feminism because we'll never understand what the struggles of minorities are like. Basically, one of feminism's many buzzwords used to shut down any actual discussion of the issues.

I've seen some comments where men tend to feel unjustly treated because they don't conform to gender roles (Stay at home fathers etc). But isn't it men, who are in power, pushing those ideas? Yes there are women who do this, but a majority of "power players" are men. What is MR's stance on this? If men supported the change of gender roles, it would change because we have a majority of power.

I can't speak for those who feel like they're treated unfairly because they don't fit into gender roles, but I always see those discussions as trying to point out that if a guy wrote a newspaper article complaining about there being no more "good women" around--because his idea of what a woman should be is petite, demure, chaste and submissive--that feminists would wax endlessly about mainstream misogyny. The opposite case is not true. Gender roles for both men and women happen to favour women and victimize men in the court system too, so for all the feminist bitching about deconstructing gender roles they conveniently manage to ignore the situations in which gender roles favour them.

Why is this bad?

It's not, in my opinion. It's up to you. The problem is when it's expected of us--especially when the respect expected is not respect earned or even deserved.

A lot of unjust stuff that happens to men is done by men. Why do you feel that Feminists are to blame or that they are influencing this?

Feminism has a lot of influence, especially in the government. What that means is it's not politically correct to stand up for the issues of men because "women have it so much worse", meaning the issues of men get ignored. Just because men commit more crime does not mean all men deserve to be the victims of crime, and just because women have the advantage of the court/state always taking their side does not mean the things some of them use this advantage to do aren't reprehensible.

If MR is about gender equality in all things (Custody, Jail Sentencing etc) why does it have such a bad rep?

Because it disagrees with feminism (that women are universally victims and that men are perpetually privileged and therefore guilty of victimizing women in everything they do), and feminism has plenty of tools to shut down anything that disagrees with them--smearing the reputation of groups that stand up to them is just what they do.

Yes men do get unfairly treated in somethings, but I feel there are more pressing matters that should be attended to first. Human trafficking is mostly women (From children to teens to adults) - I think this is a more important thing to address than a majority of men not getting custody.

http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/24974.html

Just because we admit that men have issues that need to be addressed doesn't mean we think they should take precedence over the issues of women. It's only when women complain about being "objectified" whenever a man finds them physically attractive and doesn't feel deep shame about it (and other such nonsense) that we dismiss the issues of women.

these aren't troll questions

The way they're phrased certainly seems suspect and we have gotten our fair share of troll posts here who claim to just be asking questions, so you will have to deal with some suspicion.

Bad_Acid · 2012-08-30T20:57:12+00:00

1) MRA's believe feminism purposefully appropriates terms initially describing this (rape culture) and trivializes it out of spite for men and the desire to make rape issues all about them. Feminists would argue their critiques of patriarchy explain why men are reluctant to open up rape and that abolishing the patriarchy would lead to more men seeking counseling.

2) Feminist would argue they do not, simply that being white hetero male gives people privilege in certain areas and it is harder for people with privilege to notice it's existence.

3) Culture is a complicated construct, no one control it directly and getting people to make a concentrated effort to change it is hard. Men do not hold any special power of reshaping culture, it is possible that media does.

4) Individuals conforming to gender roles (in your case chivalry) is not a problem to either movement), individuals being pressured into those roles by society is a problem to both. If it's something you just like to do go ahead, if you feel compelled to do it it's a problem.

As for chivalry in general MRA's would say that society pressures men into a provider and protector role in which they are expendable. Feminists would say it is insulting to women as it assumes they are helpless and cannot do anything without male protection.

6) Some of the bad rap is undeserved. Often times people think it is a codeword for sexism and others think gender rights are a zero sum game and men winning means women lose. Men's rights has some very good points but in my experience it exaggerates it's anti-feminist qualities. Considering feminism was one of the first gender based critique of our society and had many valid points about the way our society worked the categorical rejection of anything related to feminism often seems knee-jerk and based on flawed ideas of what feminism is to outsiders.

Also one prominent blogger argued he would vote not-guilty in any rape case he was a juror because he believed the system was so incredibly tainted, which earned a lot of bad press.

7) I would argue that human trafficking most likely varies who it affects most in different areas. In agricultural areas they are most likely looking for men. If they want sex slaves or textile workers they are probably looking for women and children. I also think obtaining statistics on this would be incredibly hard, and would say that gender relations in 3rd world vs. first world are very different.

I am making wide generalizations about MRA's in feminists in this post but that's hard to avoid if you are asking me to describe movements. I would say that feminism just as an intellectual critique of society is larger and more varied because of it's age while MRA is just starting out. Furthermore I would add that MRA's usually attack radical feminists (because radical feminism is pretty silly) and ignore things like black feminism. Also MRA's critique of feminism tends to be on a practical level rather then a theoretical level, we rarely see responses to published feminist scholarship on this subreddit but we do see a lot of responses to media campaigns and mainstream blogs.

truthjusticeca · 2012-08-30T18:36:52+00:00

I don't mind walking in the rain. I don't mind being the second (or fourth) person through the door. I don't mind dropping her off closer to work and then parking. All of these are done solely to reduce her stress and makes her feel "special"

I don't understand the logic of your justification (because you are a large man). The result of such paternalistic benevolent sexism is a woman with a toddler mentality.

TheSacredParsnip · 2012-08-30T19:17:48+00:00

The main issue that I have with your frame of thought is that you seem to think we can't work on multiple issues at a time. We can try to fix more than one problem at a time.

mythin · 2012-08-30T23:05:59+00:00

In regards to number 4, there's a point that I don't feel has been brought up as the primary factor, though it's been touched upon.

As everyone else has said, there's no issue with doing something nice for someone you care about. The problem comes in when it is expected and the person doing the nice thing is taken for granted.

I generally make more money than a lot of my friends. I like to treat people to things, like food or whatever. All of my friends know that it is a treat. I am not obligated to do it.

Similarly, I open the car door for my wife. I do it because I like to. My wife is a very competent person in pretty much anything she puts her mind to. She doesn't demand I treat her with classic chivalry, but we both happen to like it, and she appreciates it.

That is really the important part, the appreciation that a human being has done a nice act for you, not the expectation that a walking bit of utility and disposability has performed its intended role.

If you want to learn more, /u/GirlWritesWhat has a very good set of videos on youtube. I recommend starting here, than watching the rest as you have time. (Warning, they are all pretty long.)

rightsbot · 2012-08-30T17:18:18+00:00

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Estephe · 2012-09-01T02:08:59+00:00

Read A Voice for Men regularly and you will begin to get the picture.

The big picture is that there has been a major top-down social engineering agenda going on for decades that allows the gov't to control citizens. The main goal is to make sure children are raised by gov't according to gov't specifications.

This has succeeded because the culture has gotten to soft: entertainment, obsession with genital stimulation, passiveness toward civic involvement.

Look at the video on youtube "Cultural Marxism." The misandry that you mention is based on utopian ideology. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q0BruaR9bc

This will explain a great deal.

chocoboat · 2012-08-30T20:59:10+00:00

Your questions seem to assume the idea that MRAs blame women and feminism for our problems. That is simply not the case at all. There was no feminist movement to fight to get favorable treatment in custody cases... it's just the way society developed, and both men and women are at fault.

1) Because people assume it is only women that get raped. But no one is blaming feminism in any way here!

2) For the same reason some whites think black people are inferior... plain old stupidity.

3) Yes! It is in fact men more than women who demand gender roles be enforced, and more men than women will tease or insult those don't conform. There are plenty of men responsible for anti-male behavior.

4) Chivalry is awesome. Good for you. The only bad thing about chivalry now is that some women will be angry if you hold the door for them, and other women will be angry if you don't.

5) When a man does something unjust against another man, it's almost always done out of ignorance. Feminism is rarely a factor.

6) It makes no damn sense. My only guess is that people assume MR is about hating women and read no further.

7) Hell yes, there are MUCH more important problems than most MR issues. But we should work to fix all problems in our society, not just the most important ones.

Ignoring MR issues is like assigning every police offer to work on murder and grand theft cases, while having no arrests for petty theft and assault. We have to try to prevent all injustices, not just the biggest ones.

Title	New to MensRights and have a couple questions.
Author	Bad_Acid
Upvotes	6
Comments	54
Date	August 30, 2012 5:17 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/z342c/new_to_mensrights_and_have_a_couple_questions/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/new-to-mensrights-and-have-a-couple-questions.1014656 https://theredarchive.com/post/1014656

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