feminist group FEMEN's topless protests to go global. “We understood that classic feminism no longer works”

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[–]BarackObamazing -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You seem to entirely miss the point of these protests. That there is no reference to sexual slavery in the article is likely one of the things these women are protesting. Sexual slavery among Eastern European prostitutes is firmly established and widely recognized. The protesters' problem is not as you so glibly enunciate:

anger about a powerful man coming to the ukraine and succeeding in having sex.

It instead has to do with the ability of Western men to literally purchase mostly women and girls, but also substantial numbers of men and boys, from Eastern European pimps. People who were lured with promises of economic opportunity in the West only to be met with daily sexual abuse and financial exploitation. Eastern Europe is a virtual brothel today, with mail order brides and illegally trafficked human sex slaves a major export.

The problem is that people (often fabulously powerful, corrupt and unaccountable men like Burlousconi) travel to Ukraine and other Eastern European nations to buy humans. That you disregard this chronic enslavement and the well documented abuses of Burlousconi demonstrates your blind ideology in the face of facts, and the support the MRA community has given you with upvotes further suggests that the men's rights movement will be a marginal and inconsequential effort.

Implicit support of sexual slavery doesn't poll to well with your average American these days.

[–]BarackObamazing 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

But I have to ask: What abuses of women's rights are they even TALKING about?! At what location are European women being herded up or killed? Or Oppressed? Or even moderately fucking inconvenienced?

There's a documentary called Very Young Girls that exposes the sexual exploitation of girls that is so common even in a rich society like the US, with laws intended to ban sexually abusive practices. I strongly suggest you watch it, and then get back to me on which rights feminists still fight for. The institutional discrimination is stunning, with 14 y.o. girls being held accountable by American courts for actions to which they cannot even legally consent.

Start this clip at around 2:30, and I think you'll understand the depth of discrimination that women still rightly feel. In the clip, a large group of 'johns' are given a talk by a DA about the crime that they've committed (statutory rape of an underage girl in exchange for money that ultimately goes to the girl's owner, their pimp), are assured that the system isn't there to judge them for their immorality, and are informed that if they sit through a class and aren't busted again or a little while, their record will be sanitized to remove all trace of the crime.

Contrast this with how the girls are treated. In the movie, a 14 year old girl was lured into a car by a pimp, and then kidnapped and forced to have sex with dozens of men over the course of a few days, only to be found by police and charged with prostitution. Not taken to a therapist to handle the trauma she's just experienced, but treated as a criminal who should be deeply ashamed of the actions she was clearly forced into.

If this is how prostitution is treated by the American justice system, I can't imagine how it is treated in a Ukrainian justice system that is widely regarded so corrupt that fair trials are considered a fantasy. I wonder if we'd ever even hear about miscarriages of justice against a marginal, enslaved group in Ukraine if it weren't for women taking their tops off. That seems to be the point of Femen, that the only way to get a male-dominated society to listen is through displaying sexy naked girls.

Brilliant tactic, really. And yet it is so disappointing to hear your willfully ignorant opinions on gender equality, and to see how widely these wrongheaded views are spread in this subreddit. You guys have got to start acknowledging the reality of sexual discrimination against women if you want to solve your more valid concerns, like parental rights discrimination against men etc.

[–]Maschalismos 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]BarackObamazing 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You do realize that Burlusconi is explicitly accused of funding an funding a sex ring that imported underaged foreign-born "show-girls" to pleasure Burlusconi and his octogenarian friends at their "bunga-bunga" parties, don't you? From the Telegraph, March 5, 2011:

It was Mr Fede who "discovered" Karima El Mahroug, the Moroccan-born erotic dancer who prosecutors claim was working as a prostitute at the age of 17 and had sex with the prime minister. Paying for sexual relations with a prostitute who is not yet 18 is a crime in Italy, which carries a prison sentence of up to three years. Mr Fede reportedly spotted her when he was a judge at a beauty pageant in Sicily in September 2009. He then allegedly passed her onto Mr Mora, whose offices in central Milan allegedly acted as a form of "clearing centre" for women eager to enter the prime minister's circle in pursuit of money, gifts and help with their show business careers.

The above allegation has been widely reported and confirmed by lots of news sources. The child prostitution scheme Burlusconi orchestrated would, in American terms, be as if Jerry Sandusky was actually supplying children for the President, Congressional leaders, and the top few wealthiest Americans to savagely rape.

Burlousconi isn't masculine, he's a predator and human trafficker who employed pimps to buy young girls for him and his friends to use as they wished. He is a criminal of unfathomable proportions who has systematically corrupted the entire Italian justice system and legislature to ensure he is never punished for his crimes and will instead simply grow even more unspeakably wealthy. His ridiculous legal history obviously demonstrates he will never face justice.

Who the hell else should the opponents of human trafficking protest? If are to you recognize the rights of these women to protest at all, then you've gotta admit that they've chosen a pretty good target. But yet, you most likely won't consider the facts at all and will instead be sure in your belief that Burlusconi is just a man's man, and those girls were close enough to legal, and they probably wanted it anyway.

This is why MRAs have no credibility with most people. You guys stand up for abusive male shit-heads and demonize people who dare to . . . gasp . . . suggest that feminists aren't always wrong about everything.

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This entire subreddit is proof that a subset of men won't take feminists seriously no matter what. Their nudity is the only reason that people like you would even know they exist. You're ignoring their message and just see OMGTiTS in their demonstration, but others are capable of grasping Femen's point. Here's a helpful hint: you have to read what's painted on their tits. Think of their breasts like a fleshy billboard. To be successful, you want your billboard where everyone's gonna see it. But it doesn't do any good if people don't read it.

And while MRAs may not be capable yet of admitting that "Mostly White Males Who Live In Rich Nations" are not the most persecuted group on Earth, most other people are more reasonable. Maybe they are reading Femen's message about Burlusconi and sexual trafficking.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 14 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

This entire subreddit is proof that a subset of men won't take feminists seriously no matter what.

Because they've destroyed their own credibility. I absolutely hate things like the sex trafficking industry and other forms of oppression. Freedom and choice are a big deal to me, and now that I'm aware of the situation I want to do something about it (though I don't have any clue what I can do...). Except, it wasn't topless girls that made me aware. It was you, posting on Reddit about it, because topless girls is such a shameless attention grab, and their association with a movement that's now so thoroughly dominated by petty, selfish, short-sighted bullies made me ignore them by default. There's a lot I have to worry about in life, I just don't have time to investigate things that have a ~90% chance of being not that big a problem at all.

This is a legitimate protest, but things like the SlutWalk (how dare the police give potential victims advice as to how they might avoid being victimized!) have ruined the credibility of this approach.

[–]BarackObamazing -2 points-1 points0 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Except, it wasn't topless girls that made me aware. It was you, posting on Reddit about it, because topless girls is such a shameless attention grab, and their association with a movement that's now so thoroughly dominated by petty, selfish, short-sighted bullies made me ignore them by default.

What do you think the MRA reaction would have been if someone just posted an argument about a purely feminist issue (sexual exploitation of girls). I imagine such a post would be ignored on r/MensRights. It would be downvoted into oblivion before the discussion took place. At least the sexy protesting girls provided a forum for MRAs to 1: outrageously deny an obvious problem exists or 2: disregard the problem's importance because it seems to "feministy".

The tits provided the only means for discussion. That's why they're showing them off.

now that I'm aware of the situation I want to do something about it (though I don't have any clue what I can do...).

I'm not sure how to help either. My course of action will be to not screw any underaged prostitutes, and to keep trying to cut through bullshit to see a problem for what it is.

This is a legitimate protest, but things like the SlutWalk (how dare the police give potential victims advice as to how they might avoid being victimized!) have ruined the credibility of this approach.

I might be totally wrong, but didn't the whole SlutWalk thing happen because some police chief said that if girls don't want to get raped they should stop dressing like such sluts? Don't you see how that would be offensive and belittling lots of people, who want safe streets and fewer rapists, and don't want a cop telling them that crime is not his problem, but instead is brought on by the actions of victims? Didn't the cop actually use the word slut?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I imagine such a post would be ignored on r/MensRights. It would be downvoted into oblivion before the discussion took place.

Um, duh. It also would've been downvoted into oblivion on /r/gaming or /r/writing or /r/basketweaving. It's not a relevant topic. And yes, associating yourself with feminism at all is a pretty good way to get yourself ignored by large parts of modern society even if you do have a legitimate point about women being oppressed, because mainstream feminism has held so many stupid protests over their first world problems that a lot of people just don't care anymore. It'd be better to phrase this as a class issue than a gender issue because of that, and don't bother ranting to me about how the world shouldn't be like that. It is like that, so play the hand you're dealt and don't waste time whining about it.

I might be totally wrong, but didn't the whole SlutWalk thing happen because some police chief said that if girls don't want to get raped they should stop dressing like such sluts?

Totally? No. You just missed all the important details. The quote you're looking for is "women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized," and there is nothing insulting or belittling in there unless you are looking for an insult. The word "slut" is not some kind of automatic symbol of hellish oppression worthy of mass protests. It was, at worst, mildly insensitive (also, given the psychological motivations behind rape, I question whether the advice would actually be effective, but that sure as Hell wasn't the point of the SlutWalk).

And yeah, I've got a dim attitude towards anyone who throws a massive protest because of fucking bruised feelings when people are being sold as sex slaves in your own fucking backyard, you entitled pricks. Bugger all. And that's way association with feminism is going to do any movement more harm than good. Feminism isn't about equal rights for women, it's a shortsighted, greedy, power-mongering group of bullies advancing the interests of white middle class women west of Berlin, and they're happy to ignore or exploit everyone else.

[–]BarackObamazing 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Um, duh. It also would've been downvoted into oblivion on /r/gaming or /r/writing or /r/basketweaving. It's not a relevant topic.

That's the point. If many in r/MensRights weren't so preoccupied with vilifying women, this wouldn't have come up, and I wouldn't have spent so much effort arguing against their discriminatory views.

And yes, associating yourself with feminism at all is a pretty good way to get yourself ignored by large parts of modern society even if you do have a legitimate point about women being oppressed

Tell that to the Democratic Party. Reddit is an anomaly. Modern society is massively influenced by the various and continuing successes of feminism. Given the rampant whining around here, I'd figured you guys realized that you're losing the war of words.

The quote you're looking for is "women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized," and there is nothing insulting or belittling in there unless you are looking for an insult . . . also, given the psychological motivations behind rape, I question whether the advice would actually be effective.

There's a disconnect there. Regardless of the subject, I'd be pretty pissed if police recommendations to solve a problem were not effective, and came with implied blame toward victims of crime. If rapists rape regardless of a person's dress, then it is enormously insulting for police to come out and say "well, if all you ladies didn't dress like such sluts . . ." Maybe the cop should have suggested carrying a weapon, taking a self defense class, or something similarly empowering. Instead, he called them sluts and the SlutWalkers taught him a lesson he won't soon forget.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That's the point. If many in r/MensRights weren't so preoccupied with vilifying women, this wouldn't have come up, and I wouldn't have spent so much effort arguing against their discriminatory views.

Clearly, you did not read what I wrote. Try again.

Tell that to the Democratic Party.

Tell that to the Republican Party.

Regardless of the subject, I'd be pretty pissed if police recommendations to solve a problem were not effective, and came with implied blame toward victims of crime.

There was no implied blame towards the victim of the crime, and you have absolutely no idea whether or not his advice was effective or not. According to common knowledge, his advice is sound and he is doing his job. I question whether or not common knowledge is accurate, because it rarely is and I've read a few interesting studies on the subject, but it is still very easy to defend the idea that dressing slutty increases your odds of being raped.

[–]drinkthebleach 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]BarackObamazing -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]BinaryShadow 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]BarackObamazing 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]BinaryShadow 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Instead, as a man I hope to participate in shaping the movement that nominally represents me. I don't want to be an outsider looking in.

Then stop talking like you're an outsider. There is no entrance exam. You're part of the movement if you want to be. You're entitled to your opinion. Being respectable is the first step in letting people hear your opinion and opening up a discussion.

Criticizing the r/MensRights hive mind thus seemed reasonable to me.

Then you'll never get your point across. Reddit is a hive mind. It's how it works. But society can be a hive mind as well. If you go against the norm, you have to be damn polite and damn respectible if you want people to listen to you.

If you know anything about the MRA movement, you wouldn't say stuff that looks like an SRS troll posted it.

[–]BarackObamazing 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You're part of the movement if you want to be.

That's the point. I find the current movement that claims to represent me to be preoccupied with vilifying women. I don't want to be a part of that movement, so I'm doing what little I can to influence it. And I have tried to be respectable, trying to attack arguments not individual posters. If you don't approve, you know where the downvote button is, and I'm clearly willing to defend my views.

If you go against the norm, you have to be damn polite and damn respectible if you want people to listen to you.

Ha! I disagree. Instead one should be civil, but loud as possible and forceful in opinion. People online can't agree with me, they don't know me. I want them to agree with my values, which I'm not going to alter just because some Internet forum doesn't approve. I have been civil, I offer the best arguments I can, and I have no interest conforming to your definition of "polite."

Also does SRS mean? All I can come up with from google is "sexual reassignment surgery."

[–]carbonnanotube 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]Octagonecologyst -7 points-6 points-5 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	feminist group FEMEN's topless protests to go global. “We understood that classic feminism no longer works”
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	33
Comments	43
Date	November 29, 2011 1:39 AM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/msqxu/feminist_group_femens_topless_protests_to_go/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/feminist-group-femens-topless-protests-to-go.1031209 https://theredarchive.com/post/1031209

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