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What's the difference? (between feminism and the MRM)

avoiceformen

September 16, 2011

36 upvotes

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http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/whats-the-difference/

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Post Information

Title	What's the difference? (between feminism and the MRM)
Author	avoiceformen
Upvotes	36
Comments	78
Date	September 16, 2011 6:44 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/khx29/whats_the_difference_between_feminism_and_the_mrm/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/whats-the-difference-between-feminism-and-the-mrm.1034549 https://theredarchive.com/post/1034549

Comments

[–]Kill_The_Rich 10 points11 points12 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]ignatiusloyola[M] 6 points7 points8 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Celda 15 points16 points17 points 14 years ago (70 children) | Copy Link

[–]hardwarequestions 8 points9 points10 points 14 years ago (44 children) | Copy Link

[–]Celda 5 points6 points7 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[+]felzix 14 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

It's not, not no. I wouldn't correct you except that you made that mistake twice.

[–]Celda 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Hamakua 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link

I agree with Celda, but in implication only. A lot of the goals and viewpoints the MRA has (we have a broad range of "goals" that aren't all defined all the time) often run very near parallel to the logic and ideals conservatism has. Not directly, but through 1 or 2 degrees of separation.

For example.

"Affiramitve action" is a patently Liberal ideology, its opposition is conservatism, "Affirmative action" is also a cornerstone of Feminist policy along with women's aid, custody rights for women, more protections for "minority" classes.

They aren't exactly parallel, but "the enemy of my enemy" makes it so a lot of the political direction the MRA heads in, the Republican party heads in. I am a liberal leaning MRA and it sometimes frustrates me as I see more of the "conservatism" seeping past the MRA issues and painting the whole "movement" as a tea-party thing. (sometimes).

I wrote a letter to the editor to Men's News Daily about a year ago about how their front page was nothing more than Conservative blog spam and there was rarely an article about men's rights from an "MRA" perspective.

Anyway, yeah, that is what I think Celda was getting at.

[–]ignatiusloyola 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]truthjusticeca 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

[–]avoiceformen[S] 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago* (17 children) | Copy Link

[–]truthjusticeca -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago* (16 children) | Copy Link

[–]avoiceformen[S] 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

Yes, it is a generally conservative blog, but that is not what you said in your original comment. You said: "LaSalle shut it down when it started getting overrun by MRAs."

You make it sound like Mike shut it down because of MRA's. That is not correct at all. And neither is this, really: "it's still a conservative/traditionalist blog trying to convert MRAs."

I was there for right at one year, from August 2008 to August 2009. During my time there I wrote and ran a good many articles that the right wingers took serious offense to, including one of my first attacking conservatives that called themselves MRA's for their stand on gay marriage.

If anything, during my time MND was an MRA website pushing the more extreme right wing elements away from posting there. If anything, the intent was to convert readers on the right to the MRM, not the other way around.

True there were lots of right wing writers over the years, but when MND closed operations it was an MRM operation, and was always friendly to it before I ever showed up.

I don't think you fully know what MND was and is about.

[–]truthjusticeca -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]truthjusticeca -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted]2 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]truthjusticeca0 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]2 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]truthjusticeca1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]2 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]truthjusticeca -2 points-1 points0 points 14 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]truthjusticeca1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]truthjusticeca1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]hardwarequestions 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]truthjusticeca 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]truthjusticeca 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ignatiusloyola -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]hardwarequestions 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]ignatiusloyola -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

That just sounds like a bullshit response. No one is blaming current practitioners for anything in the past, so that isn't even relevant.

The fact of the matter is that people today will have abortions done regardless of whether it is legal or not, just as they have in the past. There are many reasons why people want abortions, from the lack of desire to have the child of a rapist, to aborting dangerous pregnancies or those that would create a child that would live a horrible life (deformity), to the less common occurrence when a potential mother is scared of the hard work and change of lifestyle that will occur with having a child.

The argument comes down to this:

Do you believe that a soul inhabits the baby at conception? Then abortion is wrong.

Do you believe scientific studies that show that the fetus is nothing more than a collection of cells until it reaches a point at which it can survive outside of the womb? Then abortion is fine.

There isn't a middle ground. There are faith based reasons for being opposed to it, and there are science based reasons for accepting it.

[–]bacon-n-eggs 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]ignatiusloyola -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]hardwarequestions 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

with my foot in my mouth...

while i agree with your first assertion, the problem with your second assertion is that advancements in medical technology will soon, if it isn't nearly already, make it possible for a fetus to develop in its entirety outside of a womb. granted, this will only be by substituting a man made type of womb/incubation chamber, but nonetheless soon a woman's body will not be needed for gestation. what then? at that time, the collection of cells will be existing on its own outside of another individual and its existence will differ very little from that of, say, someone in a vegatative state on life support. we grant rights and protections to the former, why not the latter? this is what pro-life proponents will inevitably try to argue. your own method for deciding who has a right to life and who doesn't will eventually grant that right to fetuses (can you believe that's the plural form?) by default.

this is why i hold birth as the threshold for who has a right to life and who doesn't. it worked well for thousands of years, and i believe it's a pretty good line in the sand, less we want to revisit this debate for centuries to come as technology pushes back further and further what can be argued as self-sustaining.

[–]ignatiusloyola 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]hardwarequestions 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]KMFCM -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]hardwarequestions 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]KMFCM 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]KMFCM 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Guy51234 -2 points-1 points0 points 14 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

[–]Celda 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

[–]truthjusticeca 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]Celda 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]ignatiusloyola 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]truthjusticeca 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ignatiusloyola 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]truthjusticeca 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]ignatiusloyola 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Guy51234 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]Celda 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]ignatiusloyola 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I think the issue people are taking is that you are stating things as "fact" rather than "opinion", but aren't providing any evidence. When people have a different opinion than you do, but you state that your opinion is fact, then it is taken as insulting.

Quite frankly, even though I agree that there are misogynists in the MRM, I don't believe that it is a fact. No study has been done to prove it, and so all we have is our own anecdotal experience and interpretation of people who claim to be part of the MRM and also make misogynistic statements.

I also agree with you that the misogynists aren't the ones in charge, which is a good thing. There are enough non-feminists in the world who can be convinced of the MRM core values that if the misogynists ever were to start leading the movement then we would lose most or all credibility among the remaining people who are either ignorant of the movement or on the fence about the issues.

[–]truthjusticeca 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Guy51234 -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -5 points-4 points-3 points 14 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

So you know every single policy maker and government official all over the globe (majority of whom are men) and ALL of them are DEFINITELY not mysogynists? That's a hefty claim that is patently untrue. Feminists would need some sort of institutionalized power in order to enact feminist law, as it is, abortion rights are being threatened left right and centre, and somehow, feminists are the one controlling the world??

Guess what, we are fighting the same thing. Its called patriarchy. Can you honestly look around and tell me women hold power? How many women presidents has America had? How many man presidents? And now you blame women for sexist laws? I'm sorry, the sexist laws came from rich white men who believed women were baby making vessels and men were work horses designed to feed the economy. This isn't a gender thing it's a class thing.

Celda, you don't belong in mens rights.

[–]Celda 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

First of all, we're only talking about USA, Canada, England, etc. You may not mention Africa or any other fucked up places. Why? Because the MRM doesn't argue that women in Saudi Arabia have unfair female privilege which must be removed. They don't argue that feminists in Africa are harming the rights of African men.

Now, going back to your point. Did I say that all politicians etc. are not misogynist?

Nope, I did not.

I said, the misogynist MRAs are not the ones who are influential and able to get laws passed.

Surely, there are some lawmakers etc. who are misogynist. However, none of them are MRAs - at least, I have seen none who also campaign for MRA goals like anonymity for those accused of rape, equal treatment for men regarding domestic violence, etc.

Feminists would need some sort of institutionalized power in order to enact feminist law

Yeah...they would. Something like...a powerful lobby group. And if they had such a thing...maybe they could pass such laws that allow women to get men arrested for no reason...laws that help women who are victims of domestic violence but not men....laws that expel men from university if some random guys think the chance he did it is 50.1% or greater....

That would be crazy if that was true.

Guess what, we are fighting the same thing. Its called patriarchy.

You're fighting imaginary demons. MRAs are fighting real feminists who have harmed men in very real ways.

Sorry, if you believe that "fighting patriarchy" is paramount, it's YOU who doesn't belong in mensrights.

[+][deleted] -8 points-7 points-6 points 14 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]foerthan 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ignatiusloyola 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ignatiusloyola[M] 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]ignatiusloyola[M] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]jmnzz 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]JerichoBlack 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link