Does men's rights agree with me that the primary source of most men's rights issues are the expectations of men to take a parental role in protecting and supporting women?

thingsarebad · 2011-08-19T15:44:32+00:00

A closer guess would be that all men's rights issues stem from the idea that men and boys are powerful and privileged and therefore the only sex who have any responsibilities and culpability, whereas women and girls are weak and oppressed and therefore have little to no responsibilities or culpability for their actions.

edit: You will note that this means the feminist theory of a "patriarchy" actually contributes to damaging men's rights, because the whole idea is that all men and boys are part of the patriarchy and therefore are powerful, privileged, and must be taken down a notch. If your goal is to demonstrate that "the patriarchy" is to blame for misandry, you've failed.

francomaistre · 2011-08-19T17:40:42+00:00

Parental role towards women? I thought you were making sense for a second, but no, I don't agree with that at all, and I don't think the majority of MRAs would.

Most of the established Men's Rights organizations, such as they are, are dedicated to the defense of fatherhood. Fatherhood is not the only valid territory of MRM, but given that it's the area the first MRM organizations are founded on, it's obviously the most vital one. Parenthood - of children - is an important factor of many men's lives that the state loves to play games with. They give criminal and terminally ill mothers full custody in disregard of fully capable and entirely fit fathers, create a legal system that enriches women to resist and fight and makes attorneys (and future judges) wealthy from exorbitant litigation costs that women more often than not have covered free by the state, all on top of the child support requirements that are supposed to be protected in the best interests of the children.

Patriarchy has nothing to do with these perverse incentives. "Parental role in women's lives" is a delirious oppression fantasy for all I'm concerned. It has nothing to do with child custody, child support, incarceration rates, disparities in domestic violence enforcement, institutionalized misandry in television and film, or any of the other actual meat of MRM interest.

Kill_The_Rich · 2011-08-19T20:44:00+00:00

To me, a lot of it comes down to men being viewed as "moral agents" and women being viewed as "moral patients". What the fuck am I talking about? Here:

Traditionally, only rational human beings can be moral agents, for they must hold responsibility for their actions. Marginal human beings, such as children and brain-damaged people, are not regarded as having moral responsibility for their behavior, and hence are not moral agents. However, they are still the objects of moral consideration and are protected from suffering by moral laws. Accordingly they are referred to as moral patients. Moral patients cannot formulate or follow moral principles and rules. They can bring about great pain and even disasters to others, but we cannot say that they are morally wrong for doing that. Equally, their acts may bring about good consequences, but we do not say that they are morally right for performing them. Moral agents can act wrongly or rightly in ways that affect moral patients, but moral patients cannot act reciprocally toward moral agents.

http://www.blackwellreference.com/public/tocnode?id=g9781405106795_chunk_g978140510679514_ss1-188

Where that seems to come from is infinitely more complicated than what feminists have termed "Patriarchy".

ManThoughts · 2011-08-19T17:38:36+00:00

Yes, that is part of it. The other issues are: male perceived disposability and the myth that men have it so much better than women.

But absolutely, feminism infantilizes women. Tells them that their brains are made of custard, and that they're worthless without wholly supporting the feminist agenda.

kragshot · 2011-08-19T22:29:40+00:00

No. Not in the least.

Your hypothesis does not hold water in regards to false rape accusations, discounted sentencing with female-committed crimes, and the general disdain toward men that is being fostered in modern society.

Furthermore, the phrase "parental role" is just another euphemism for "the patriarchy." In other words, you are just in here trying to get the various mens rights supporters to "acknowledge" the whole patriarchy byline that feminists always tries to push.

Sorry..."No bounce; no play."

MuForceShoelace · 2011-08-19T15:20:14+00:00

Nope. I disagree on the two bolded points:

all men's rights issues stem from a historical societal expectation that men are expected to take a parental role in women's lives to protect and support women

Many, not all. And I don't see it as particularly parental. Protective is not always parental.

MuForceShoelace · 2011-08-19T17:43:31+00:00

Most of the articles here (or any other list of modern mens problems) would not make sense 30 years ago.

enkidusfriend · 2011-08-19T15:35:38+00:00

Sorry, you're from AMR and I will not be discussing such issues with anyone related to that sub.

I would be happy to discuss the issue, but not with you.

AntiFeministMedia · 2011-08-19T17:30:47+00:00

Yes you do troll this forum a lot.

But I would agree that certainly women have, and are starting once again, to be seen as over-grown children, because of the behaviour we're witnessing.

I've said it in a different thread, but men are reluctant to punish children, because they are not fully grown adults, and it would be wrong to punish them to harshly when they dont know right from wrong (yet).

The problem with women is that they are fully grown adults, and when you ask for equality with men, you have got to start acting and behaving, like adult men. Thats the standard expected.

So there needs to be an awareness among women, that if they truly want to be seen as equals, then womens behaviour as a group has to improve (and you'll notice how Im talking like a parent to a child).

But not only that, and perhaps more crucially, the law has got to be far more rigorous when it comes to prosecuting female crime.

Its laughable (and highly frustrating), that the group of people with unquestionably the most rights and privileges, are not held to the same accountability as men. Especially when they commit a crime.

Now, if I was a good, decent, intelligent woman, I would think 'Men will never respect me as an individual woman if they think women as a group are being given special treatment in the law (and in many other areas), simply because I am female.'

The best thing women could do, and it must be led by 'feminism', is to announce that with equality, comes responsibility and accountability.

The anti-feminist movement will eventually force women into behaving to a degree as far as the law is concerned, but its very hard for the law to punish crimes in the social sphere, and since most female crime occurs in this area, then its going to be women and only women that can change the image of women. I simply dont know wether women as a group are capable of that. Its my view that its ingrained in their nature to behave the way they do. Prove me wrong. Seriously, I would be happy to be proved wrong by a change in group behaviour. And Im not saying that every woman is misbehaving, but I would say a majority will when the opportunity presents itself. Its like if there were no laws to stop men misbehaving, you would see more male misbehaviour with regards to women, but we have policed ourselves to stop ourselves from misbehaving, its called chivarly, even the law is a male creation. Now women have got to step up and at least police themselves. There is far too much 'well we can do what we like and to hell with anyone else' mentality amongst women in general conversation for a start.

So yes I think women have been seen as children in the past, but its been of their own making.

And its been a sort of easy way ( or easy-er way, its still not easy even then) for men to say "We need to restrain women from behaving badly, because they are children" (the feminists have called this 'oppression'). In my opinion, women arnt children. What we see from women is in the female nature to manipulate and decieve when they get the opportunity.

Women and the law need to take a long hard look at themselves, and wether they want true equality, or just an image, which men will not respect. And at the end of the day, like it or not, women and society need men. You need us, we are the good guys that police the bad guys, we do the manual labour, we stabilize or de-stablize society, depending on how we're treated. And there is a lot of ill-will in the male world at the moment. Most of that will be MGTOW-ed, but even that will have a negative effect on society, and on women. And not just women that will suffer of course, but children.

Why are women not thinking about the long-term effects on our children? This is something else which frustrates men. We can grin our teeth and bear a lot of the stuff we as men have to put up with, but when you start harming children the way feminism has done, and it has to be said, the way women do sometimes, Im thinking about them being used as weapons in divorce, etc, then a line has to be drawn.

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