Tony Porter from a call to men: What would life be like if you didn't have to adhere to this man-box?

dropastory · 2011-01-11T23:50:45+00:00

What Mr. Porter didn't mention is that nobody has to stay inside the Man Box. Freedom begins with a single word: no. The minute you say "no", you are free. Those who want a "yes" from you can try to beat you, but as long as you hold on to your "no" you remain free.

Fatalistic · 2011-01-11T23:37:53+00:00

He began with a bunch of cliches about "sexually objectifying women" as if women also don't do this to men by choosing those who are tall, have handsome faces and are muscular and worse, they treat men as "success objects" as well.

He then went on to talk about his children and how men are expected to act, but he doesn't seem to know that many of these impositions are also supported by women expecting men to act in these ways and choosing such men.

What happens when a man doesn't act in stereotypical "man" ways? Women shun them as "weak" "unconfident", etc. Point is, he's not getting laid and he's being ostracized for not acting in the expected way.

He then goes on a tangent about how bad it is for a man to be called a girl, and implies this somehow means something about what we teach our boys about girls. What do we teach our boys about girls...? I can't remember being told anything about girls specifically. Some stereotypes did arise such as girls not being as good at sports and so you would hear things like "You throw like a girl" being said to a boy here or there. But the main thing is that it goes back to the whole being seen as weak issue. That is what calling a man girl is about. That is why military drill instructors yell at young men calling them "girly boys". The implication is that you have to be strong. Men are not putting themselves into this "man box" any less than women are putting them into it.

The whole "gender roles" thing still very much exists for men, and infact moreso because there is now greater pressure for a man to succeed as he not only has to compete with other men, but now with women in a stacked competition that favors them with things like affirmative action.

Porter goes on to talk about how young men are expected to have sex. And he's right. But is this caused by maleness or the "man box"? Men have to act and appear as if they're sexually confident and experienced or... women don't like them. It becomes a self-reinforcing loop. Even if you aren't, you have to act as if you are. Women reinforce this by calling you questioning your sexuality, possibly calling you "gay" or "faggot" if you turn it down.

I've actually experienced this myself. When I was 15 years old, my older brother had some girls over on a night my parents were out who were around his age and one of them, who I had never met before in my life, approached me and asked me "Do want to fuck me?" -- I was stunned. All I could say was "I... don't know." and she immediately began acting offended and asking me if I was gay before storming off. She wasn't unattractive or anything, infact she was pretty good looking. I just didn't find the idea of having sex with a stranger I had literally spoken to for the first time appealing. And that was the response I got for making that decision.

Tony continues by talking about platitudes of sexual consent and a woman not saying no but not saying yes, and not resisting in any way. A woman who was at an apartment of a friend of his which when he was young asked him if he "wanted some" from a young woman there, and Tony felt he was pressured into it but couldn't say no. Why was the young woman there? I've never known any women who would hang out at a guy's apartment and be "raped" over and over like that. He links this to the so-called "sexual objectification"... which I think is bullshit and an excuse to demonize male sexuality. Most normal people desire sex. Why does it have to be "objectification"?

He closes by saying that violence against women and this supposed "sexual objectification" is somehow linked to "epidemic levels of violence against women" and that the CDC claims that this is the "#1 health concern for women"-- which I though was diseases like cancer... My bad. I'm pretty sure if you look at the statistics for deaths that about 1.23 million women die a year in America, and that about ~1200 of those deaths are from domestic violence. Which makes this entire idea that violence against women is epidemic or even close to the #1 killer of women a complete sham.

dropastory · 2011-01-12T00:25:49+00:00

Of course we are part of the problem, women are part of the problem too.

One idea might be to get women to stop letting themselves be such victims of hypergamy.

Boys see that girls reward aggressive bullying behavior, and guess what boys start to do?

rantgrrl · 2011-01-12T03:45:00+00:00

The idea that ending violence against women has anything to do with male socialization because men are socialized to dominate women is absurd.

Men aren't socialized to be violent towards women. They're socialized to swallow violence done to them by women and a small, small, small minority of them eventually crack from the built up pressure.

powerpiglet · 2011-01-12T06:23:54+00:00

I love this video. I think it's very pro MR and I don't see the presenter as trying to shame men.

One of feminism's big successes has been in breaking down social barriers for women to give them more choice. Women can wear skirts or pants. A woman can be respected as a CEO or stay-at-home mom. She can ideally be chaste or promiscuous. She has the choice of being aggressive or a harmonizer.

The underlying message I see in Porter's talk is that men are still straitjacketed by society in ways that women are not, and the same process needs to happen for men. A man can't wear a skirt. Househusbands are not respected. Men have to want sex at all times. And a man who is not aggressive is a pussy.

Some of these directly relate to issues that MR cares deeply about. No respect for househusbands means hypergamy. Men being seen as always wanting sex relates to how they are treated after a rape accusation. Men being seen as always aggressive relates to the idea that they are always the aggressor in cases of DV.

Porter is saying we need some sort of movement to free men from this. To me, that means Men's Rights, and he's telling an audience of feminists that they should be helping men to reach that goal. If he can convince feminists to support MR causes, then great.

The talk does focus on how the "man box" hurts women, but that is not a bad thing per se. It is true that women get hurt by these things too, and as a presenter he knows that he needs to relate what he wants to say to the audience's interests (or even self-interest).

If the talk did not have that focus, he likely never would have spoken at TED Women, and we may never have seen the video. The reality is that there probably are no mainstream conferences talking about these issues that do not have a feminist foundation.

melb22 · 2011-01-13T07:54:15+00:00

It's just feminist patriarchy theory presented to appeal more to men. But no matter how it's dressed up it's false.

Patriarchy theory claims that the gender system is designed to privilege men by denying women full human status. Men as a class, it is claimed, use violence against women to enforce their privilege.

Therefore, violence against women is held to be widespread and systemic, common amongst all men and embedded within masculine culture.

The strategy to combat such violence is to deconstruct masculine norms.

It's nonsense. Traditional masculine norms strongly forbade violence against women rather than supporting it. Women have never been treated as being less than fully human. And violence is concentrated amongst a group of men most subject to stressors such as poverty, unemployment, mental ill health, homelessness and drug and alcohol abuse. It is not evenly spread through the general male population.

We have to get over the ideological curses foisted on us by previous generations of intellectuals. We have to root out patriarchy theory in favour of a more realistic and practical approach to these issues.

Fatalistic · 2011-01-11T23:01:49+00:00

There's no link to anything.

PeachyKeynesian · 2011-01-24T05:30:12+00:00

Not to mention his credentials are highly suspect...

Quazz · 2011-01-11T23:05:45+00:00

If it's the video I think it was, then I vaguely remember disagreeing at some parts, but without rewatching it, I can't really say.

Could you provide a link?

But as you already highlighted, the title is misleading and wrong, everyone is part of the problem and everyone should work towards solving it.

AbeFussgate · 2011-01-12T00:37:53+00:00

I think this man-box idea is a fallacy; it's male insecurity/low self esteem. The same things that make girls get all crazy with dieting and fashion. People don't like their self image and try to project and emulate images that they see as desirable. This mostly happens during adolecents when kids are smart enough to be nasty but not strong enough to reflect on their own lives or motives of others.

For most guys it's the easily accessible images at a vulnerable time in their lives like ripped A&F models with skinny hot chicks in high school or all the movies about war, fighting, sports. The imagery is everywhere in this digital age. It sets in early, then they carry that ideal through the rest of their lives out of habit and begin to create a life and self image that reinforces those beliefs.

Everybody will respond to you a different way. The only thing an individual can control is their response to other people. It doesn't make sense that you blame everybody around except the person with the issue. If you as an individual don't want to follow societal norms, then don't. Deal with what people say to you in a responsible way. There will always be assholes. That's what my dad calls "life".

I don't think there's a real big problem here, typical human condition. Good luck changing that, maybe the government can make a law banning low self esteem.

Title	Tony Porter from a call to men: What would life be like if you didn't have to adhere to this man-box?
Author	dropastory
Upvotes	12
Comments	78
Date	January 11, 2011 10:59 PM UTC (15 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/f0ilq/tony_porter_from_a_call_to_men_what_would_life_be/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/tony-porter-from-a-call-to-men-what-would-life-be.1044403 https://theredarchive.com/post/1044403

Comments