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(WikiLeaks) CIA Report: Use feminism to reduce Western opposition to military occupation of Afghanistan [2010]

duhhhh

August 22, 2021
73 upvotes
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
https://wikileaks.org/wiki/CIA_report_into_shoring_up_Afghan_war_support_in_Western_Europe,_11_Mar_2010
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Title (WikiLeaks) CIA Report: Use feminism to reduce Western opposition to military occupation of Afghanistan [2010]
Author

duhhhh

Upvotes 73
Comments 26
Date August 22, 2021 12:20 PM UTC
(4 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/p9bhuw/wikileaks_cia_report_use_feminism_to_reduce/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/wikileaks-cia-report-use-feminism-to-reduce.1060541
https://theredarchive.com/post/1060541
Red Pill terms in post
feminism
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Comments

[–]a-man-from-earthleft-wing male advocate[M] [score hidden] 4 years ago stickied comment (1 child) | Copy Link

Removed for misleading title.

[–]TintelFrootleft-wing male advocate 19 points20 points21 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The CIA is an enemy of the people, and you can’t change my mind.

[–]duhhhh[S] 37 points38 points39 points 4 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

There have been several threads here and on mensrights talking about the shaming of male Afghan refugees and accepting women refugees. This was proposed by the CIA more than a decade ago...

Found the thread by this title on stupidpol subreddit as it is identity politics.

[–]AleksandrNevskyleft-wing male advocate 7 points8 points9 points 4 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

I thought I saw it somewhere else before this. You're a stupidpoler?

[–]duhhhh[S] 17 points18 points19 points 4 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

Yes. Identity politics is my big area of disagreement with the modern left. I want social programs that help with education, healthcare, housing, transportation, victim support services, etc for all, not certain approved groups only.

[–]AleksandrNevskyleft-wing male advocate 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Good, goooood. Let the solidarity flow through you.

Unfortunately, there are many that would also call this particular area of advocacy to be itself IDPOL.

[–]twice_punished_jannyleft-wing male advocate 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Eh, I always took stupidpol to be anti-idpol in situations where socialism would help everyone. For some men's issues, this is the case, howeve manny social and legal issues wouldn't exactly be solved under socialism

[–]AleksandrNevskyleft-wing male advocate 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I've taken the stance that we're a counterbalance not a supremacy movement. The moment the things I care about are achieved my support stops or at least suspends until it's needed gain. When it continues past a tangible end-goal it just becomes an excuse to perpetuate and becomes reactionary identitarianism. Not like we haven't seen that happen before...

The fine line I believe that should be walked.

​

howeve manny social and legal issues wouldn't exactly be solved under socialism

One of my biggest peeves with socialism in general is this. A lot act like it would automatically, in and of itself, solve all problems. Since no one would have it better than anyone else in a material sense conflict would stop. Yeah, sure and I've got a bridge to sell you too.

Don't get me wrong it's a huge priority, almost assuredly the top one. But what becomes of our concerns? Having a socialist economy wouldn't solve biased courts, it wouldn't provide men with decent trauma recovery services, and it certainly wouldn't remove any cultural perceptions or problems.

[–]Deadly_Duplicator -2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Do you believe it's your nations duty to give housing and healthcare to everyone in the world? You did start this comment chain off talking about refugees. If there's anything that I don't like about the 'modern left' it's taking wildly unsustainable policy stances because of a desire to be the most compassionate to a fault.

[–]peanutbutterjams 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

Do you believe it's your nations duty to give housing and healthcare to everyone in the world?

I personally believe it's our moral duty to ensure every person on this planet is fed, clothed, watered, sheltered, educated and medicated to a degree necessary for them to be able to self-actualize.

[Edit: I assume your 'policy stances' assume the status quo. The status quo has resulted in a nearly insurmountable divide between the rich and the poor and the climate crisis.

I'm not interested in the status quo.]

[–]Deadly_Duplicator 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Ah yes so you're for wildly unsustainable world policing. Gotcha. Or taking in so many refugees it fundamentally alters your country. Ok.

[–]peanutbutterjams 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I'm for whatever that directly works towards my stated goal. If the idea of countries are in the way of accomplishing that goal, then I don't think they're an important enough concept to sustain, no.

No, I don't think a national identity is worth sacrificing the poor.

[–]Deadly_Duplicator 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

This ideology only works if its done worldwide and all at once. The problem is that if one nation believes in getting rid of nations but others dont the former just ends up weak. Furthermore having a national identity doesn't actually necessitate sacrificing the poor.

[–]peanutbutterjams 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I also agree that having a national identity does not actually necessitate sacrificing the poor.

But I would be willing to sacrifice it if it was somehow preventing us from meeting the needs of the poor.

I'd like to ask you, with sincerity:

If you were given the chance to work towards what I described in a meaningful way, and the needs of you and your immediate family were provided for, would you?

[–]Deadly_Duplicator 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Of course! but you have indirectly come to the core issue. Yours is not the only way to approach the problem. And with a worldwide view on the issue, you must take a wholistic and pragmatic approach.

The nation structure exists because it is necessary. It is pragmatic. You must build structures to check on one another and ina very real sense, nations keep eachother in check. Yes it is an imperfect process for certain. But the other option... A world government? Staffed by whom? You might suggest democracy but when eastasia simply votes resources from other areas because of population well that isn't right. A world government would be so far out of reach from the citizen, to say nothing of needing all states of the world to essentially voluntarily give up power. So what then?

[–]lightning_palmleft-wing male advocate 5 points6 points7 points 4 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

The document never explicitly mentions feminism. I'm not 100% convinced. Can someone enlighten me?

Afghan women could serve as ideal messengers in humanizing the ISAF role in combating the Taliban because of women’s ability to speak personally and credibly about their experiences under the Taliban, their aspirations for the future, and their fears of a Taliban victory. Outreach initiatives that create media opportunities for Afghan women to share their stories with French, German, and other European women could help to overcome pervasive skepticism among women in Western Europe toward the ISAF mission.

• According to INR polling in the fall of 2009, French women are 8 percentage points less likely to support the mission than are men, and German women are 22 percentage points less likely to support the war than are men.

• Media events that feature testimonials by Afghan women would probably be most effective if broadcast on programs that have large and disproportionately female audiences. (C//NF)

[–]Deadlocked02 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I mean, if you go by the feminist argument that every woman who fights for equality and better opportunities is a feminist, then yeah, I suppose you could call this feminism. I think pro-female bias would be a better word for the title of the thread, though.

[–]Sydnaktik 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

That's a stretch. It's clearly not what is implied from the titled. It is absolutely not what I thought it meant when I read the title.

This title is blatant misinformation. Personally I consider that kind of misinformation to be even worse than feminist misandry. We can make no real progress if we adopt the us vs them mentally and start acting like the truth doesn't matter as long as the lies support your side.

[–]skysinsane 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I mean, it worked for feminists :P

[–]lightning_palmleft-wing male advocate 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Because there is a psychological mechanism that makes humans cast men as perpetrators and women as victims, i.e. the empathy gap. It won't work for us.

[–]Sydnaktik 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It worked for feminism. But did it help humans? I don't think so. Do feminist lies even help women? I think not. It only helps feminists, and probably not even most of them.

We're the plebes. The systems that need to be installed and protected to support us are much more complex and fragile and I believe that they need truth to function.

[–]lightning_palmleft-wing male advocate 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

We can make no real progress if we adopt the us vs them mentally and start acting like the truth doesn't matter as long as the lies support your side.

Yes, this! Let the truth speak for itself. We don't have anything to hide so long we always let the truth speak for itself, because it is on our side.

[–]Sydnaktik 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I wouldn't go that far. I've learned that you have to be careful. If you're innocent or you're telling the truth, it's easy to make the mistake of assuming that facts being on your side means that things will work out in the long run.

But the guilty and the liar knows he's in the wrong. He'll be working 10 times harder to make his version prevail. So I'd say no, don't just let the truth speak of itself, because the liars will easily drown it out.

In some cases and circumstances the truth will give you an edge. But that edge is becoming vanishingly small. Too many people are adopting a post truth ideology where furthering their own agenda becomes more important than the truth. Meanwhile, PR agencies and think tanks are working very hard at identifying lies that are easier to believe and "prove" than the truth.

Also, when you're not constrained by the truth, it's easier to lob a wide variety of "facts" to find out which ones stick and can become viral.

All included, the truth being on our side hampers us more than it helps when it comes to getting our message accepted. It's just that I believe that once we start relying on lies, we become part of the problem: creating chaos and injustice, losing sight of our humanity. And not the solution: giving everyone a fair and equal opportunity for a better stronger, meritocracy based humanity that can accomplish more as species and for the self actualization of its individuals.

[–]lightning_palmleft-wing male advocate 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Reminds me of this quote by Nazi Germany's Reich propaganda leader:

» In the evening, I go for a short visit to Maria and talk at length with my mother, who is for me a mouthpiece of the mood of the people. She knows the mood of the people better than most experts of the people's mood, who judge it from the high standpoint of scientific experience, while here the voice of the people itself speaks. Again, I can learn a great deal; first of all, that the people are usually much more primitive than we imagine. Therefore, the essence of propaganda is simplicity and repetition. Only those who can reduce problems to the simplest formula and have the courage to repeat them eternally in this simplified form, even against the objections of intellectuals, will achieve fundamental success in influencing public opinion in the long run. « – Joseph Goebbels (Berlin, 1942)


All included, the truth being on our side hampers us more than it helps when it comes to getting our message accepted. It's just that I believe that once we start relying on lies, we become part of the problem: creating chaos and injustice, losing sight of our humanity. And not the solution: giving everyone a fair and equal opportunity for a better stronger, meritocracy based humanity that can accomplish more as species and for the self actualization of its individuals.

Not quite convinced of this paragraph. I think it's about marketing. "The patriarchy" and "toxic masculinity" are great marketing buzz words. If we can, we should adopt a similar strategy.

[–]problem_redditorright-wing guest 8 points9 points10 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I wrote about this previously as well. Truly appalling.

https://www.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/p5fw8p/i_usually_dont_post_about_other_reddit_drama_but/h96fz2j/?context=3

[–]Sydnaktik 7 points8 points9 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That is an extremely misleading title. There is no mention of feminism in the report.

They do mention using the plight of women and girls suffering at the hands of the Taliban. This is one point (repeated 2-3 times) among probably around a dozen.

There is evidence of the empathy gap in the messaging being suggested. But the empathy gap is a phenomenon that exists regardless of feminist intervention. And if you're going to judge what messaging is most effective, it just makes sense to accommodate for the empathy gap.

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