Article claiming that "female suffering not taken as seriously as male suffering"

Riptionator · 2022-09-15T03:08:42+00:00

What a leap. People don't think women are in as much pain because they cry over a broken nail and everyone knows that men hold their emotions back when they're in pain. So the conclusion really is that women are more sensitive and want sympathy over the smallest thing while men just grin and bear it. THAT'S the real conclusion.

Love2BerateTheFemoid · 2022-09-15T03:24:10+00:00

This is purely a form of gaslighting. We all know what is really happening in academia and what has mattered the last 100 years. There's evidence. Now that sometimes men are being brought into mental health and quality of life issues, suddenly "men matter more to society".

its pure unadulterated bullshit perpetuated by sociopathic feminists, which, as it speaks to women and as women are more consensus seeking than men on average, means they'll lap it up.

pearl_harbour1941 · 2022-09-14T22:56:47+00:00

The original study can be found here: https://www.jpain.org/article/S1526-5900(21)00035-3/fulltext00035-3/fulltext)

"Female and male patients were not perceived to be in differing amounts of pain (female mean = 34.10, male mean = 33.39) before controlling for patient pain facial expressiveness and self-report pain, t(49) = 1.53, P = .13. This does not support the hypothesis of greater perceived pain in females overall."

It's amazing that people drag out unsupported headlines based on no evidence.

Here's the kicker, from the very next paragraph in the study:

"However, potential biases are conflated with variation in true pain and expressiveness."

What they mean by this (and it is NOT explained in the text) is that women are implicitly awarded the status of being "more expressive" as a general condition. This bias is not tested for, not quantified, is sexist, and may not necessarily hold true for pain. However, the researchers just added that in there, assumed it held true for pain expression, and modified their results to suit their hypothesis.

It's junk science.

TheHypest64 · 2022-09-15T04:23:08+00:00

Reminds me of a video I saw a couple of years ago about homelessness in the UK,

Got this banger of a quote: "tragically 1 in 4 homeless people are women"

Archangel1313 · 2022-09-15T05:07:46+00:00

This is basically a study based on people's opinion of other people's feelings? Hmmm. Totally accurate, I'm sure. /s

sorebum405 · 2022-09-15T16:41:58+00:00

When you read through the study and look at the background information they provide, you can see that there is not really clear evidence of bias against women in pain in the scientific literature.

Despite clinical evidence of underestimation and undertreatment of female patients’ pain, laboratory findings on sex biases in pain estimation have been inconsistent.10,26,36,51,52 In some studies, females have been judged as being in more pain than males based on their facial expressions 51,52.In other studies, participants have judged female patients to be in less pain than males, 10,56 but as higher in catastrophizing 32 and exaggeration of pain 56 than male patients. It seems that the inconsistency in the direction of the sex bias in pain assessment stems from whether pain facial expressions are taken into account. If females are believed to be more expressive than men for a given level of pain experience, then perceivers may discount women's expressions. In addition, females may experience more pain than males in some contexts. Controlling for objective measures of pain facial expressiveness is therefore an important step to isolating perceiver bias.

So they show that the evidence for gender bias in pain is inconsistent.some studies show that women are perceived to be in more pain.Some studies show that men are perceived to be in more pain.Some studies show no differences in perception of pain based on gender.They think that the reason for this inconsistency is because other studies don't control for facial expressions.They also mention gender stereotypes as a potential reason for why men and women's pain is treated differently.

Sex biases in pain estimation and treatment may arise in part from gender stereotypes about pain. Hoffman and Tarzian 28 provided several examples of these pain stereotypes, including “Women complain more than men; women are not accurate reporters of their pain; men are more stoic so that when they do complain of pain, “it's real”; and women are better able to tolerate pain or have better coping skills than men.” Robinson et al 50 formalized measurement of gender stereotypes about pain in others in the Gender Role Expectations of Pain measure (GREP). The GREP asks about perceptions of typical men's and women's sensitivity to, endurance of, and willingness to report pain. Studies using the GREP have reported that women are viewed as more willing to report pain, more sensitive to pain and less able to endure pain than men. These gender pain stereotypes may represent mechanisms underlying gender biases in pain assessment and treatment.

Then they provided evidence showing that these "gender stereotypes" are actually accurate.They also show more studies that overall show mixed results.

The finding that men's pain is overestimated relative to women's is consistent with other studies suggesting that males’ pain is perceived as more intense than female's pain, 56 even in neonates.10 However, our finding stands in contrast to an even larger number of studies that have found increased estimation womens' pain compared to that of men.26,36,51 In addition, a substantial literature demonstrates that when sex or gender differences in pain report are present, women are almost always found to report more pain than men.16 ,20.

Here is another quote

We found no statistically significant perceived sex differences in pain facial expressiveness in the present stimuli (see Supplementary Materials), but other studies suggest that females may indeed report and express higher pain than males.17,20,22 In other words, our participants’ bias (stereotype) that women are more expressive of pain than men may well be accurate at the population level. However, it led them to misestimate pain in this study. Indeed, studies have shown that people use group-level stereotypes when information about the individual person is sparse,30 as was the case for our stimuli and in many medical encounters.

The results of their study showed that they found that people perceive women to be in less pain when controlling for self-reported pain and facial expression, However they found no evidence of bias in recommending treatment.

Experiment 1

As in Experiment 1, female patients were perceived to be in less pain than male patients at the same level of pain expressiveness and pain self-report. This bias was not moderated by perceivers’ gender, t(196) = −0.3, P = .76, indicating that male and female perceivers did not differ in pain estimation biases

Experiment 2

Contrary to our hypotheses, the dose of pain medicine prescribed to female and male patients did not differ after controlling for pain facial expressiveness and patient self-reported pain, t(196) = .13, P = .9. As expected, however, increased pain facial expressiveness significantly predicted increased doses of pain medicine, t(196) = 4.35, P < .001. Patient self-reported pain did not predict dose of pain medicine after controlling for expressiveness, t(196) = .18, P = .86

Experiment 3

Also contrary to our hypotheses, the sessions of psychotherapy prescribed for female and male patients did not differ, t(196) = −.46, P = .64, when controlling for pain facial expressiveness and patient self-reported pain. As with pain medicine, however, increased pain facial expressiveness significantly predicted prescription of more sessions of psychotherapy, t(196) = 2.67, P < .01. We did not find an effect of patient self-reported pain on sessions of psychotherapy prescribed, t(196) = −.71, P = .48.

They also point out multiple limitations in their study that limit the generalizability of their findings.

1.

Our findings should be interpreted in light of several limitations. The size of the target patient sample used in this study is limited (N = 12 in Experiment 1 and N = 25 in Experiment 2). Because of the limited number of available stimuli, our analyses treated patient as a fixed (nonrandom) effect. Therefore, future studies will need to test whether our findings generalize to other populations of male and female patient exemplars. Additionally, because the factors affecting the estimation and treatment of patient pain may differ across different pain conditions,54 it is unclear whether our findings will generalize to pain disorders beyond shoulder pain. However, we did replicate the main findings across two experiments.

2.

This study was not able to address biases related to race and age (for studies, see Hollingshead et al 29) as the UNBC-McMaster Shoulder Pain Expression Archive Database does not systematically vary in race and age, nor does it provide demographic information for the patients. As studies with virtual agents have demonstrated that the perceived age and race/ethnicity of the target can also influence pain assessment and treatment,29,63 it is possible these factors could have influenced our results. However, the patients appear to be mostly middle-aged Caucasian adults. Therefore, we think race and age are unlikely to represent a major confound in findings. Generalization of our findings to other patient demographic groups will require further research with stimuli systematically varying in other demographic dimensions.

3.

Another aspect that potentially limits the generalizability of the findings to clinical settings is that hardly any of the pain perceivers had medical training or healthcare work experience (3/200 in Experiment 2). However nearly half of them (92 of 200 in Experiment 2) reported past or current experiences with pain, thus they likely did have experience with considering treatments for their own pain and likely the pain of those in their families. Indeed, pain is a universal condition, and many recommendations about pain and its management are made outside of medical care by members of the lay public. Even individuals with chronic pain conditions often make recommendations about their own pain treatment, striving for self-management 5. Furthermore, lay-led, group-based self-management programs for patients with chronic pain have been developed, which entail the evaluation of pain and pain treatment by lay perceivers.37 Therefore, understanding the biases that lay perceivers have in both pain assessment and treatment recommendations has value and potential clinical relevance.

So overall, there isn't evidence of a clear pattern of bias against women specifically.What I find interesting though is that there is all this concern about the potential bias against women who express pain, but much less concern about the fact that men have worse health outcomes and lower life expectancy, then women and the blatant bias against men's health.Men health gets less attention and less funding (see pages 56-61) then women's health.

There are also multiple national offices for women's health and none for men.Yet we are more concerned about this potential bias against women that may be due to their greater willingness and/or ability to express pain and go to the doctor.Which would ultimately lead to them still getting the treatment that they need more often then men anyways.Women also live more years in good health.So women are doing better on pretty much every measure you can look at to determine how healthy a population is.Yet it is still not enough and apparently we need to focus more on improving women's health.Imagine how many more resources will continue to go towards funding women's health over men's because of things like this. that may turn out to be trivial or non-issues.

IceCorrect · 2022-09-14T22:49:32+00:00

Beacuse its purly subjective scale and beacuse more males suffers bloody and harmfull injures then 10 for women can be 6 for men, beacuse women could just never move goal post of 10. So if pain can be measured by empiracal numbers then maybe we could talk how women pain are not taken seriously.

I would also bring how fewer for men are not taken seriously, even when we have empirical numbers and data that show that for males even a small fever are more "unpleasant", beacuse of testosterone male bodies doesnt fight so easy with fever, but for this we have many, many memes and jokes told by every generation.

Geebus54 · 2022-09-14T22:32:47+00:00

Gee and women always say how they can take so much better than men, I guess that's lying.

It's interesting. I was having a conversation with a doctor friend and in his experience, people experience pain differently. Some people, will handle pain one way, and other people will handle the exact same pain in a completely different manner.

Sort of like preferring chocolate vs. vanilla.

Some people react one way to pressure and another to a needle prick, whereas some are the opposite. Some can still function with a headache, and others cannot handle it.

It might not be gendered at all. Different people deal with, and experience things, differently. Some women don't give a crap about having an abortion, and other women celebrate their aborted baby's would-be birthday ever year with regret for some reason.

Some women can be sexually assaulted and it's just the price of doing business and bad shit happens sometimes, others become filled with hate, gain a hundred pounds, dye their hair blue, and hate men. I know a woman that went full blast man hating because a car drove by and honked at her in years ago.

Do doctors ignore women's suffering? I don't know. Since doctors are pretty much just greedy drug dealers I find these stories about doctors ignoring women's "pain" a little far fetched, but then women these days hate anything where a male is involved so, to them, someone not recognizing their "lived experience" is a "thing". Doctors primarily want to deal drugs and do unnecessary tests for money, plain and simple.

Maybe women who have weird reactions to pain are loudest on twitter.

I have no idea.

But women don't even recognize male suffering at all, and hate men unabated, so I hardly think they're in any position to whine about not being taken seriously.

DavidByron2 · 2022-09-15T00:13:26+00:00

ROFTLMAO

goodmod · 2022-09-15T00:13:50+00:00

Another study linked on the same site says that men and women process pain differently - and implies that men feel pain more intensely.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/03/220322221844.htm

gamerlololdude · 2022-09-15T05:45:21+00:00

There were studies done about pain perception from doctors in US. They would consistently underplay women’s pain. This is coming from the “women are emotional” belief of the past. like “she is just overreacting”.

some obvious examples:

1.) what happened with endometriosis. historically under diagnosed and women told to suck it up and dismissed as “regular period cramps”.

2.) the whole field of obstetrics, people are not aware that pregnancy and childbirth is unpleasant at best and suffering at worst. You can see this lack of awareness with Roe V Wade being overturned. If people, including medical professionals, knew the pain that pregnancy and childbirth can be, without dismissing it as “oh well woman deal with it for being a human with a uterus”, it would be obvious why abortion is a necessary healthcare option.

3.) no one likes menstruating yet even if tools exist to opt out of periods women are socialized to just accept it.

Few-Dragonfruit7905 · 2022-09-15T12:03:05+00:00

Y’all are LITERLALY dumb. The study is about people perceiving the pain not the actual experience of pain. And if men and women experience the same painful stimuli, the women is perceived to not be in as much pain as the man.

“Female patients were perceived to be in less pain than male patients before controlling for other factors, t(196) = 3.27, P= .001. This is counter to the hypothesis that females would be perceived to be in more pain but consistent with our findings in Experiment 1 after controlling for pain facial expressiveness and self-reported pain. As in Experiment 1, increased pain facial expressiveness predicted significantly increased pain estimates when controlling for self-reported pain, t(196) = 19.98, P < .001. Increased self-reported pain also independently, significantly predicted increased pain estimates controlling for pain facial expressiveness, t(196) = 6.04, P < .001. More importantly, when controlling for both pain facial expressiveness and patient self-reported pain, female patients were estimated to be in less pain than male patients, consistent with our hypothesis and the findings of Experiment 1, t(196) = 4.13, P < .001. As in Experiment 1, female patients were perceived to be in less pain than male patients at the same level of pain expressiveness and pain self-report. This bias was not moderated by perceivers’ gender, t(196) = −0.3, P = .76, indicating that male and female perceivers did not differ in pain estimation biases.”

Title	Article claiming that "female suffering not taken as seriously as male suffering"
Author	Minute-Language-7993
Upvotes	64
Comments	25
Date	September 14, 2022 7:48 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/xebde2/article_claiming_that_female_suffering_not_taken/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/article-claiming-that-female-suffering-not-taken.1132979 https://theredarchive.com/post/1132979

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