When bringing up men's issues, how would you respond to a feminist who claims "patriarchy hurts men too"?

63daddy · 2022-09-23T22:48:26+00:00

“We don’t live in a patriarchy. There’s no point in discussing a idea that’s based on a false premise.”

If you do get into such discussions, you are basically buying into there false patriarchy theory and they’ve already won.

CambionClan · 2022-09-24T00:32:32+00:00

Feminism hurts women too, let’s oppose it together.

wineblood · 2022-09-23T22:52:06+00:00

Why would a patriarchy seek to hurt men?

iainmf · 2022-09-24T00:51:03+00:00

This is good, because they agree that men are suffering.

Ask them what immediate and practical steps they think we can do to alleviate men's suffering.

Ask them if they think men should advocate for themselves and be able to determine the best way to address these problems.

beleidigtewurst · 2022-09-24T12:17:00+00:00

"Aust dept of health (80% female) has allocated 1 million to boys/men issues and 2.1 billion to girl/women issues. Was that because of patriarchy?"

pearl_harbour1941 · 2022-09-23T22:47:32+00:00

"When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

JACSliver · 2022-09-24T07:54:29+00:00

"A patriarchy truly privileging men would not hurt them at all."

Sarin03 · 2022-09-24T04:13:28+00:00

If the patriarchy hurts men then its not a patriarchy.

whtsnk · 2022-09-24T01:17:25+00:00

Patriarchy theory is not falsifiable and therefore not a scientifically valid mode of analysis.
Just because you have a tool at your disposal does not mean that the solution to every problem in the world requires the use of that tool. Insisting upon patriarchy being the root of every problem that anybody faces—men or women—and insisting that a feminist response is required to eradicate such problems borders on the mentality of a conspiracy theorist.
Such thinking is willfully operating with a major intellectual blind spot—why should an otherwise intellectually curious person not want to look at a problem from multiple perspectives?

cashcapone96 · 2022-09-24T03:17:39+00:00

I wouldn’t even argue with a feminist bro these are people who base their opinions and thoughts on groupthink and what’s popular. Everything they say is not their own original thought, it’s where they think the power and control is at, and they wanna piggyback on that. All we can do is wait for this insanity to run its course, because by the end of it everyone will be trying to appease the men that stood by their masculinity, because that’s where the power will feed into when shit hits the fan.

You can’t beat ‘em with logic, they don’t respond to logic. They respond to power.

Infinite-Teach-3079 · 2022-09-24T11:23:35+00:00

“That’s just what the Matriarchy has made you believe”

TracyMorganFreeman · 2022-09-24T01:51:53+00:00

Then why do we do the same issues and the same gender roles in matriarchal societies, and don't diminish as more women are in power?

Metraxis · 2022-09-24T02:24:32+00:00

"Patriarchy hurts men too" lets you know that you are dealing with patriarchy as an article of faith and not as a reasoned political opinion. The proper response is to exit the conversation, unless you're the sort who would try to convince a Baptist that the devil doesn't exist

mikesteane · 2022-09-24T01:56:14+00:00

"I've got better things to do with my time than argue about your fantasist theories." See this link for an understanding of female confabulations: https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/xibb69/women_live_in_a_neurotic_hell/.

rabel111 · 2022-09-23T23:53:41+00:00

The feminist argument that patriarchy harms men and women relies on the premise that the patriarchy exists, and then that every negative outcome experienced by men or women can be explained by patriarchial theory. This is a simple ideological exercise in creative logic and is not supported by any evidence other than ideological reasoning (pretzel logic).

aerial_coitus · 2022-09-24T02:18:14+00:00

I do not engage with feminists. Talk about an exercise in futility.

mattmann72 · 2022-09-24T02:24:01+00:00

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

SecondEldenLord · 2022-09-24T07:12:16+00:00

How can something that doesn't exist hurt men? Honestly, it is like saying we live in a nazi regime but we have Jews and blacks with jobs and families living comfortably.

NohoTwoPointOh · 2022-09-24T11:57:04+00:00

I wouldn’t.

Once you stop caring what those types think, things will begin to improve.

octalanax · 2022-09-24T12:53:12+00:00

You might inform your interlocutor thusly:

Patriarchy is a figment of your imagination, merely an accumulation/reservoir of all the things you consider "badness."

Your entire feminist movement depends upon false claims of victimhood, when you are a member of the most-protected and most-celebrated group in the history of the world: women.

If "men are victims too" then why does your movement always ignore and downplay the suffering of men? And when it comes to actual policy, why does your movement always have proposals that will damage men MORE?

RatDontPanic · 2022-09-24T04:41:41+00:00

That's easy... even without Patriarchy, people like them will continue to use gender revenge logic as a justification for discriminating against men.

SmartMartlet · 2022-09-24T04:43:31+00:00

What does patriarchy have to do with men's rights? Men ought to have rights regardless of the type of society we live in.

KochiraJin · 2022-09-24T05:59:51+00:00

The Duluth model of domestic violence is based on Patriarch theory. Through scientific observation we know that model fails to predict reality. What good is Patriarchy theory if it's models fail to predict reality and hurt people when forced on the population?

Angryasfk · 2022-09-24T06:40:40+00:00

Britain is now onto her 3rd Female PM. And Queen Elizabeth II was quite probably the most loved monarch the country has ever had. Scotland and Wales have women First Ministers. Is it at all possible to claim that the UK has a “problem” with “women in authority”???? I’d say the answer has got to be an emphatic NO!!!!!!!! So where is the “patriarchy”? It’s slightly less clear in Australia (but only because we’ve as yet only had one female PM). Which is why I quote Britain as the example.

odysseytree · 2022-09-24T07:06:09+00:00

I say in schools there is no patriarchy.

Clockw0rk · 2022-09-23T22:53:36+00:00

“Fuck your sexist, myopic worldview, you stupid mouth breathing troglodyte”

Or

“The adults are discussing real issues here, take your fantasy bullshit to the kiddie corner if you can’t keep up”

ReWildingOfMen · 2022-09-23T23:33:23+00:00

I would reply that: a broken clock is right twice a day. OR to that even such an inane and ridiculous ideology as 'the patriarchy' has a shred if truth to it.

What shred of truth to it is there? That yes there is a group of people who benefit and enjoy extreme privilege and wealth and power and influence..

You could call them the 0.1%, the modern day aristocracy, our dark shepherds or whatever else.

But to conflate the ruling elite (who have historically controlled the plebs by divide and conquer) WITH every man....

Is to thus be complicit in a narrative and strategy that has been designed to weaken and put men and women agaisnt each other... And distracted from the real problem/bad guys.

In reality normal men and women have suffered side by side, raising their families and being worked to the bone for generations and generations....

To be blaming normal men, to be blaming your father's, brothers, sons in such a reductionist and self serving 'understanding' of the world is utterly shameful and verging on unforgivable.

Yes there is a shred of truth to all things somewhere. But to be buying so completely into some form of all men are bad/all women are bad/ all purple people are bad or whatever else.... Is a gross failure in your duties and responsibilities as an adult human being.

scifipoorguy · 2022-09-24T06:31:56+00:00

"Name evidence the patriarchy exists."

Angryasfk · 2022-09-24T06:49:49+00:00

That she’s just trying to declare “black is white” to maintain her ideology! Perhaps she could point to how “white supremest views” hurt white people in the Jim Crow era (all this “patriarchy” stuff is really about comparing womens lives to those of black people in the US under slavery and Jim Crow if the truth be told).

fasterpastor2 · 2022-09-24T13:39:09+00:00

Realistically, if you just keeping asking for clarification their argument will unravel itself lol.

NAWALT_VADER · 2022-09-24T20:05:39+00:00

You say: "Stop derailing the conversation. We are attempting to address real issues. Please stop interrupting with your insane man-hating fantasies."

mostlydisposeable · 2022-09-24T15:48:01+00:00

I would be understanding, since I think that argument comes from a genuine sense of sympathy. It can't hurt to point out though that If one believes:

Patriarchy can hurt men (I.e. Toxic masculinity).
Women can interalise and perpetuate Patriachy (I.e. Internalized misogyny).

Then Partriachy neither exclusively bennefits, Nor stems from men. What then is the point in calling it partriachy, a specifically gendered term?

HannibalsProtege · 2022-09-24T04:02:10+00:00

Don't argue with a wild animal, the best you can do is present them with this, "Yes the Patriarchy hurts men in family court at the behest of women who wrongfully have abused it, for selfish monetary gains."

Then walk the fuck away.

One_Ad_3499 · 2022-09-24T10:15:43+00:00

Paying a certain amount of money to your ex-spouse can only make sense if we live in a patriarchy. Only male draft makes sense if we live in a patriarchy. Real is question is why you are fighting so hard to preserve parts of patriarchy that go in your favor

EvidencePlz · 2022-09-24T00:35:06+00:00

You have no reason to respond and the claim is invalid because here in the modern, developed western civilization we don't live under a patriarchal system. I'd personally be against such a system if it existed today, as I am a firm believer of just, fair and balanced equality for all genders.

Some African and Arab countries such as Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan etc are still strictly patriarchal where women enjoy very little freedom, if any. Perhaps you should talk to those women instead.

Poet_2413 · 2022-09-24T12:11:40+00:00

I would respond with the question what the other person thinks what patriarchy is and why it possibly hurts men. The answer could be that patriarchy isn’t about every men having the power to control every woman and situation but about an ideal image of men who do have most of the power in this world that both men and women have to deal with in different ways.

Proof-Examination574 · 2022-09-25T01:29:52+00:00

I just slap them on the ass and tell them to go make me a sandwich.

GhOsTinBOUND · 2022-09-24T00:14:59+00:00

The argument is sound. Assuming toxic gender roles weren't pushed on us as young boys is kidding ourselves. The "patriarchy" is just another word for what IS real. Systematic oppression of everyone who isn't part of the 1%

We don't need mens rights to say the patriarchy doesn't exist so much as we need to admit that men AND woman face separate issues that both require to be paid attention to and remedied. That is what mens rights is.

Raziphaz · 2022-09-24T02:22:36+00:00

I’d probably agree <3

GoingInForPhase2 · 2022-09-24T08:56:07+00:00

I say "Exactly, so it's time to stop acting that it's a Man VS Woman situation and instead acknowledge it as an Outdated Views and Social Standards VS Everyone situation."

This might just be because I view the concept of patriarchy as "Men have to be strong and dominant and Woman have to be nice and silent", with a matriarchy just being the flip-flop of that, as both allow no room for any individual personal expression.

Huffers1010 · 2022-09-24T10:22:32+00:00

In extremis, she's probably right, for at least some values of patriarchy. The problem really is that the sort of patriarchy a lot of really hardline feminists are talking about doesn't really exist, at least not to the extent they claim it does, and certainly not in all circumstances. Personally I'd say that outspoken anti-guy prejudice hurts men a hell of a lot more, and I see mainstream feminism pushing for that as much as they possibly can get away with (which, these days, is quite a lot).

What doesn't hurt anyone is true egalitarianism, which is why I'm an activist for neither men's rights or feminism.

Mad_militia2 · 2022-09-24T17:56:38+00:00

Very positively because it does hurt men as well.

UnfurtletDawn · 2022-09-24T01:17:04+00:00

At least now feminists are acknowledging men's issues.

tsawsum1 · 2022-09-24T09:42:28+00:00

It very clearly does. I would agree with them

911Superstore · 2022-09-24T05:03:33+00:00

Here’s the perfect low IQ answer: you are both just awful. That does not however mean everyone should alter their genitalia or weaponize crossdressing. Lol.

Cunari · 2022-09-24T04:37:00+00:00

I would argue that "patriarchial" gender roles are only partially socially constructed. For example, paying for dates and being seen as a provider is not socially constructed it's based on supply and demand.

Or male disposability is also based on women's intrinsic value and not socially construction.

Some feminists believe gender roles are entirely socially constructed so I would start with that postulate.

periodicchemistrypun · 2022-09-24T05:57:21+00:00

Please, we’ve only had a patriarch like a week, matriarchy wasn’t so great either.

anticitizen2501 · 2022-09-24T09:42:41+00:00

"It hurt itself in it's confusion."

HomeownerSwear · 2022-09-24T11:42:17+00:00

The patriarchy DOESN"T exist...

Women can vote for warmongers while immune to the draft, because the patriarchy doesn't exist.

Women can create debt their husbands are responsible for, because the patriarchy doesn't exist.

Women get equal pay but won't do equal work in professions of excessive death, difficulty and discomfort, because the patriarchy doesn't exist.

Women have made laws such that if men lie about birth control that's rape while if a woman lies about birth control he should have just kept it in his pants, because the patriarchy doesn't exist.

Women can incriminate any man upon any accusation without due process but never pay a price when they lie, because the patriarchy doesn't exist.

Women have special laws protecting only them from violence in violation of the 14th Amendment protections of equality before the law, because the patriarchy doesn't exist.

Women can choose whether or not to be a parent after sex and even after birth because of their sex but men should just keep it in their pants over reasons of sex (sexism), because the patriarchy doesn't exist.

Women almost exclusively refuse to marry men of lower financial station thus ensure that if they initiate a divorce, they will get alimony, because the patriarchy doesn't exist.

Women are automatically presumed to get custody of children because of sexist assumptions about only mothers being necessary, because the patriarchy doesn't exist.

Prestigious_While_64 · 2022-09-24T12:20:56+00:00

Its impartial to the problems themself until you make an extra effort of empowering men in non patriarchal structures , as otherwise the sexism behind them still will thrive.

Drougen · 2022-09-24T12:53:21+00:00

Idk but I always laugh when it falls to IF ONLY I COULD JOG AT NIGHT! ALAS IT WILL NEVER BE SAFE FOR WOMEN THOUGH

Like what is with women wanting to jog at night? I'm a 6' man and don't want to jog at night, like wtf

MrRonchito · 2022-09-24T13:19:35+00:00

There is no patriarchy, otherwise men will face no issues to begin with.

Handle-me-timber · 2022-09-24T14:06:49+00:00

You turn around and pull a clown mask out of your bag to hand to her.

ZekalMacabre · 2022-09-24T14:09:32+00:00

"Patriarchy" can't hurt men or anyone because such a completely ridiculous idea runs counter to reality. Patriarchy doesn't exist. Never has, never will.

Crypt_Ghast · 2022-09-24T14:38:51+00:00

This "concept" is just a conspiracy theory thing. Like the other crap that's been brought up. But if someone's believing in that you have no chance in arguing.

Frankx888 · 2022-09-24T15:05:47+00:00

so what do they want, a matriarchy?

Iceman_Hottie · 2022-09-24T15:09:59+00:00

"the feminist notion of" patriarchy" stems from Simone de Beauvoir trying to normalize abusive relationships, so she wouldn't feel bad about choosing to stay in one (she was willing and an abuser herself) to become famous. Now it is a gaslighting tactic used to justify abuse. Men not caring about women is incompatible with human biology, as men have a neurological response to women showing socially significant emotions."

Its just a way for abusers to abuse more people. I can dig up the links on the biology if need be. (it's in my comment history.)

FinancialTomato1594 · 2022-09-24T15:20:34+00:00

Patriarchy is a privilege toward men so saying patriarchy hurting man is not valid.

Anih1list · 2022-09-24T16:08:22+00:00

They’re right, any “-archy” will hurt people. In fact, I’d argue monarchs were hurt under monarchy because they had loveless arranged marriages. Don’t attempt to debunk patriarchy, there’s like five different definitions of it.

The correct strategy would be to bring up male oppression which seems to exist independently of the patriarchy. Whereas men being overworked could reasonably be attributed to paternalism putting financial responsibility on men, it’s harder to explain how circumcision is directly linked to patriarchy.

Soda_BoBomb · 2022-09-24T16:28:06+00:00

That it literally doesn't make sense. If it was a true Patriarchy, it wouldn't hurt men.

Chudsaviet · 2022-09-24T16:55:06+00:00

Given men are getting mobilized now in Russia, I would say “yup, you are correct”.
Lets just make sure we don’t replace it with matriarchy.

ANUS_CONE · 2022-09-24T17:07:14+00:00

I would respond with the definition of dogma and then quit talking to that feminist

pooky311 · 2022-09-24T18:04:56+00:00

If it existed, it possibly could have, but it is completely made up narrative that doesn’t warrant further discussion. As to answer your question “Santa Claus hurts men too”

gordonLunar · 2022-09-24T18:06:25+00:00

Only if you're gay.

Remarkable-Row-2288 · 2022-09-24T21:31:37+00:00

I tell them a lack of patriarchy hurt me more than anything

hp02121 · 2022-09-24T22:16:52+00:00

In two months I will be 79 years old. I still work full time as a substitute teacher in my county's public school system. So, my question to you is "what the hell is patriarchy," and how can I get just a little bit of it into my life?

_BlueShark87 · 2022-09-25T01:10:34+00:00

Are you in a heated debate and need quick answers?😑Anyways the best thing to say would probably be to tell them you don’t discuss imaginary things and she should first prove it exists.

ElisaSKy · 2022-09-25T08:32:18+00:00

"So does the Unseelie Court."

somethingneet · 2022-09-26T02:34:37+00:00

"feminists love patriarchy when it benefits them"

Welcome_to_da_gulag · 2022-09-26T08:45:45+00:00

"But your delusion hurts you even more"

redal12 · 2022-10-03T09:08:08+00:00

"Feminism tries to eliminate patriarchy by empowering women, MRMs tries to eliminate patriarchy by empowering men. One movement per issue."

Title	When bringing up men's issues, how would you respond to a feminist who claims "patriarchy hurts men too"?
Author	Minute-Language-7993
Upvotes	282
Comments	159
Date	September 23, 2022 9:43 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/xma64b/when_bringing_up_mens_issues_how_would_you/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/when-bringing-up-mens-issues-how-would-you-respond.1208699 https://theredarchive.com/post/1208699

Comments

"Aust dept of health (80% female) has allocated 1 million to boys/men issues and 2.1 billion to girl/women issues. Was that because of patriarchy?"