I personally feel like the conversation around men's issues is stuck in a groove

hshsgdve · 2022-11-23T13:31:51+00:00

I mentioned this elsewhere, but I really think most of the conversation is guilt appeasement.

Enough sons have fallen into serious depression and nihilism, that women reached a bit of a tipping point where their conscience can’t avoid addressing it.

For example, if you watch a school cohort of boys all be forced to stand up and apologise for the behaviour of men they never knew, and you’re a mother of one of those boys, I think the whole “girls are oppressed” narrative is pretty difficult to maintain. When you see your own son tormented by shame and misery, it’s pretty difficult for those with a conscience to keep peddling misandry.

Liman_Albridge · 2022-11-23T20:12:03+00:00

The root of the matter is hyper-agency for men, and hypo-agency for women. Until we drag this out of our collective Jungian shadow and start addressing it, there isn't going to be much movement on men's issues.

Instead of pushing back on facts, I'm starting to believe we should be asking women to explore the situations where they manipulate men in their life. Simple questions like, "Have you ever manipulated a man?" This opens a door to a rebalancing of the agency question, whereas talking about the death gap, the violence gap, the education gap, and the care gap all leave women feeling like we're complaining. We have to first activate feelings of agency, which women (and men) conveniently turn on and off as it suits them.

As old Warren said, "Men's weakness is their illusion of strength, and women's strength is their illusion of weakness."

If you find yourself in an argument about gender, first thing to do is to flip on the agency switch of the person you're talking to.

If you haven't seen Karen Straughan's break down, here she is speaking to the issue of hyper and hypo-agency.

The Tyranny of Female Hypoagency:
https://youtu.be/KBgcjtE0xrE

Forgetaboutthelonely · 2022-11-23T13:17:08+00:00

I think this is a better sign than you may think.

Sure. It's not exactly the conversation we want. but it's a conversation that wouldn't be happening if not for consistently raising awareness.

And something that I've noted in years of being involved in these discussions is that those frameworks don't survive outside of heavily moderated echo chambers.

The cracks start to show in the dissonance between our lived experiences as men and what feminists project onto the male experience but most people don't have the knowledge to recognize where it's inaccurate.

This is something we should focus on. Show people the flaws behind these ideological paradigms. Break them down in an easy to digest way. and keep hammering them through.

Zinziberruderalis · 2022-11-23T21:20:49+00:00

If you cooperate with feminists you are likely to get stuck in a groove (no pun intended). Their interest in the issues you mention is cynical. Co-opt and destroy.

niblizx · 2022-11-23T16:04:27+00:00

I think part of the problem is we have simple language to discuss privilege. In particular, we think of topography of privilege as these next concave and monotonically slopes. In reality, privilege can vary significantly by different economic, social, religious, political, and legal spheres.

For example, as a black man, I found that I was without a doubt more privileged than black women in professional spaces with masculine overtones: tech, finance, etc. However, in spaces with more feminine overtones, like non-econ public policy, I found black women to be more privileged. The “local” impact of having a space with majority female leaders and a space where the norms around collaboration/leadership came from people socialized as women overrode whatever global or apriori privilege I had as a man.

Similarly I find that men are more disadvantaged in spaces, activities, and measures of health that depend on emotional regulation because we were socialized to neglect our emotions. However we are more advantaged in activities that involve leadership b/c there’s a long history around normalizing leadership as masculine.

Ignoring people that are not interested in good faith discussions, I think once we understand that privilege is very contextual, then we can have more productive conversations.

shit-zen-giggles · 2022-11-24T22:56:29+00:00

I feel your frustration and while I haven't witnessed these debates in Denmark first hand, I've perceived quite a substancial shift away from 'boss bitch' vindictive, snarky feminism towards a somewhat more objective / level headed tone and discussion on these subjects.

Am I expecting far too much?

Difficult question. On the one hand you have to aim high to get anywhere, on the other hand if you set your marks too high you will always be disappointed of and frustrated by any outcome (and come of as extreme / out of touch with reality to others).

Take women's rights and equality as an example: The beginnings of the women's movement was in 1848 with declaration of sentiments. The next major turning point was the right to vote around the 1900s - 1920s. That's 50 - 70 years. Then the next wave came in the 1960s - 1970s with the invention of the pill. That's another 40 - 60 years. Next came the wave of the 1990s - 2010s. That's another 30 - 50 years.

My point is: Watching social change while it's going on makes watching paint dry feel like an action thriller in comparison. Whenever this topic comes up, I advise people that - as frustrating as it is - the changes we want to see will for the most part manifest generationally.

As Max Planck, the pioneer of quantuum theory, wrote:

A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it

How to deal with that on a personal level? One of the most famous Danes, Søren Kierkegaard, put it so aptly:

Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards.

Don't let the slowness of the progress bring you down. Maybe you have to get a little older to develop the perspective of looking back on things in the terms of decades rather than years, but if you arrive at said perspective, you will certainly see progress.

hotpotato138 · 2022-11-23T17:10:06+00:00

I think society hates men just for existing. Women are loved just for existing. Feminists lie by saying there is misogyny.

That's not to say there aren't any good people who won't love you. There are!

ChimpPimp20 · 2022-11-24T01:43:59+00:00

And I just do not know what it will take to make the conversation move past these, despite the fact that many of the inequalities are reinforced and legalised by the government, institutions and NGOs/organisations.

Realize that feminism is popular in the mainstream media (nothing inherently wrong here imo). Then realize that there is profit now in being a victim. Once you know this you'll understand why it's hard to hear anything besides toxic masculinity in pertains to bettering men. It's all corporate. The issue is that people still think feminism has absolutely no ounce of power (excluding Roe v Wade ofc) in government.

SailSignificant5812 · 2022-11-23T14:10:43+00:00

I think you're expecting things to change to fast. It's a long run which will take years. Or the inciting incident is missing.

For example the Depp heard trial is in my eyes a milestone regarding violence against men in relationships and that women can lie. Maybe that's just my view since I had a gf who was sometimee violent against me, so maybe I'm biased.

Many people think that the current feminism has its merits and problems. But the problems are easier to to dismiss if the only people who are prominently against it are guys like Andrew tate. There will be a point where a change will happen in the long run or at some point faster if there is a charismatic sane person who can pring certain problems to the forefront. On the conservative side there was Peterson but he went of the deep end.

But all in all I have the feeling there is progress. Prominent feminists will have to adress some points sooner or later for example the problems men face in education etc.

matrixislife · 2022-11-23T14:23:48+00:00

Get in there and take your downvotes. Make your point about the most obvious of their comments, keep it straightforward, truthful and respectful, put forward your point of view and take the virulence you get back as a badge of honour.

This years IMD has been very much improved from last years. Last year it was almost totally negative outside this sub, this year there's been several very positive discussions and reponses to it. Things are improving, slow and steady, so long as we keep the pressure on without screwing it up we're going to see some changes relatively soon.

blaizken_420 · 2022-11-24T04:36:32+00:00

The solution is to tell victim-blaming feminists to shove it and make them realize they reinforce those issues they shirk entirely on men.

mogydee · 2022-11-24T19:30:55+00:00

International Men’s Day was originally created to remove the negative stigma associated with men and boys in our society. The awareness of this on the contrary hasn't been raised and is rocketing fast on a downward path. People are coming up with 'themes' (on the main website and wiki page) but that's not what IMD is supposed to be about, and it detracts from the main problem. Some of these themes like last years 'better relations with women' actually have vilified men even more. We need to remind people what it is about. #MenAreHumantoo

Ok_Comment_8515 · 2022-11-24T06:24:50+00:00

I've been think about this alot and I think this may be a problem with messaging on our end. I know when I come on here most people will talk about men's issues through a systemic lends but I feel like once you get onto the wider it just spirals into we dont get enough sex.

A lot of political movement originate with a clear academic bases. I don't feel like ww have that so feminists for example whmirg their own theoretical framework can supplant a lot of out own narrative with their own more well established ones. So when a random on the street starts learning about men's rights they either have to fall down and academic path which leads to feminism or a Internet forum path which can often miss the point.

I thought maybe a small forum for people to write their own articles and expand on theory's they had. Maybe have some volunter editors so that the ideas that get talked about here can be made in to cohesive and compressible form. But I dint know if that would be a worth while idea because it would require people to actually write and their writing to be decent. But idk. Maybe more academic journals surrending men's rights.

Blauwpetje · 2022-11-24T20:16:26+00:00

Intersectional feminism will never accept the fact that men are not privileged, they will always see the war against (cishet white) patriarchy as their aim in society. All they will be willing to do is change details in their strategy; they might even support f ex intactivism and acknowledge men can be victimised by women sometimes. But they will explain the latter with: ‘men are ashamed to admit their weakness and therefore let it happen’. While doing damage control all the time, they will deny biological differences and at the same time refuse to give up the ‘women are wonderful’-idea. They will demand equality of outcome when it suits them. They will talk about male sexuality as something that should only be there when they desire it and that will be called harassment or even assault otherwise. This is because it is not a logical system of thoughts, but a collection of weaponised ideas as ammunition for their ‘struggle’. At the same time, this way of thinking seems to be losing its hegemony. But the many people exploring what’s really going on and publishing about it for about a decade, hardly seem to have played a role in it. It’s centre-right or a-political populist men and women losing their patience - and their fear of being shamed for aberrant opinions. If a reasonable left will ever as a phoenix come out of the fire - who knows. It’s all quite frustrating, but if it must happen this way, let it happen quick.

Maffioze · 2022-11-23T12:42:32+00:00

Will try to give a more constructive response when I get the time but I feel the same way.

lingdingwhoopy · 2022-11-27T13:19:46+00:00

It's amazing to me how many people openly dismiss men's issues so callously. It's not just women, sadly. It's also men.

The "men need to just change their attitude/expectations" is a very popular mantra online that women and men mutually engage in.

Title	I personally feel like the conversation around men's issues is stuck in a groove
Author	DrH_0506
Upvotes	155
Comments	35
Date	November 23, 2022 11:27 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/z2mp30/i_personally_feel_like_the_conversation_around/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/i-personally-feel-like-the-conversation-around.1140479 https://theredarchive.com/post/1140479

Comments