Fallibility of the MRM?

anonlymouse · 2013-12-08T14:58:52+00:00

I don't think it's useful to get caught up in. We've already seen the harm feminism has done. They're trying to deflect that very valid criticism by speculating about the harm the MRM might do.

DougDante · 2013-12-08T14:27:51+00:00

Anything is possible. Rather than debating on whether others are doing more harm than good, I prefer to focus on trying to do good.

There are plenty of victims you can join me in helping by visiting /r/mractivism and selecting any action opportunity that speaks to you.

chocoboat · 2013-12-08T16:41:01+00:00

I would listen to their perspective. In fact I agree there are flaws with the MRM, including a small percentage of sexist assholes who ruin the public image of MRAs for everyone else, and the unwillingness to see the word "feminist" as anything other than "evil sexist brainwashed man-hater".

I think it's a big image problem for MRAs that they refuse to acknowledge the fact that "feminist" means different things to different people. There are many women who want equal rights and equal responsibilities (the same thing MRAs want), and call themselves feminist. Then they meet an MRA, who they ought to get along with since their ideals match, and hear "feminists are terrible people" and instead an argument ensues.

There is so much wasted effort, so many arguments and "our side vs their side" fights, among people who mostly share the same ideas, and it's a shame.

But I think the positives of the MRM outweigh the negatives, it's not even close. Someone has to stand up for mens' issues, and it's extremely rare for feminists to ever do it. A feminist telling a man "you should be a feminist because we're both equality minded" is like telling a black person in the 1960s not to bother with the NAACP or other equal rights groups. (note: I'm not comparing the past treatment of blacks directly to the modern day treatment of men)

You're absolutely right about the religious fervor surrounding groups like these. The censorship and refusal to listen to other viewpoints is too common among feminists. I do see a very low level of this stuff among MRAs, too.

Could the MRM become responsible for more harm than good? I find it unlikely. This happened to feminism because once they got large and powerful, there was no opposition group to check the power. Feminism would be the opposition group for the MRM, if it ever came to it. But I would hope once both sides have solved many of their issues, they could join and just fight for equality for everyone together, rather than being opposing forced who have to check each other.

borizz · 2013-12-08T16:09:17+00:00

How personally attached do you feel to the MRM movement?

Not at all. Ideas and beliefs don't reflect on my self-worth. (except for the idea that ideas and beliefs don't reflect on my self-worth).

If someone were to make a statement believing the net impact of the MRM might have more negatives than positives, would you listen to such a perspective?

I would listen. If the arguments brought forward have merit I will change my stance. If it's just gut feelings and other assorted unscientific bullshit I won't.

Can you imagine a potential future where the MRM became responsible for predominately harmful things in society?

Yes.

Can you envision a day where you would actively oppose the MRM movement as a group?

Yes.

Do you believe it's possible the group could make assumptions on bad information and cause social harm even with good intentions?

Yes.

Do you believe it's possible the group could become overwhelmed with people with poor intentions?

Yes. People co-opt movements all the time for their own gain.

What does the group mean to you?

Nothing, except that I think that men face certain issues in modern society which should be addressed.

MrKocha · 2013-12-08T15:25:00+00:00

[permanently deleted]

2013-12-08T16:45:22+00:00

The MRM isn't going to disappear. The only thing that will happen is that it will grow.. very large and become a real political movement. The realities of men and what they are living through will only increase the MRM ranks and it's about time. Mens rights are human rights. I've seen many nasty remarks about the MRM.. and still it grows. At this point I don't think there is any turning back it will only become a more influential political movement. It has no where to go but up.

2013-12-08T17:20:57+00:00

I have almost 0 ties to the MRM, I support what it's doing, pointing out the hypocrisy of society in regards to how it treats men, but labeling myself as it is far too wide of a descriptor, and just like feminism the name of the movement is connotative of chauvinism to those who fail to grasp the intricacies. Most of the stuff on this sub is either simply anti feminist or reactionary, but there are truly high quality posts and a far better discussion that the SJWjerk of "muh privilege". Hopefully the MRM gets equal legal treatment for men and then disappears. Once the legal rights of a group are equal large scale discrimination disappears (see minorities and women). If the MRM stays around after equal rights are achieved and starts focusing on intangible social norms like feminism does I't'll be annoying.

rightsbot · 2013-12-08T14:16:16+00:00

Post text automatically copied here. (Why?) (Report a problem.)

dungone · 2013-12-08T17:47:57+00:00

I will debate with anyone and hear them out, provided that they adhere to reasonable ground rules for a civil debate. That means actually responding to points that are made, rather than with cliched ad hominem attacks, strawmen, or otherwise ignoring the point and derailing the discussion. I expect them to concede when they have contradicted themselves, lacked evidence or unable to refute countervailing evidence, etc. I expect them to respect the burden of proof rather than arguing on the premise that they are morally superior and therefore correct by default, even when shown that they are not. I expect them to focus on a single point at a time, rather than releasing a torrent of irrelevant and unsubstantiated claims to be refuted by me whenever it becomes clear that they don't have a valid rebuttal to the point I made.

If you can find feminists or anyone else who can argue in good faith, as I had just described, and they still believe that the MRM does more harm than good, then I am eager to hear them out.

ruboos · 2013-12-08T19:32:57+00:00

As long as we keep the whole movement based on issues and policies, we will be able to avoid ideological fanaticism. In my opinion, that's the best and most effective way to mitigate any possibility of become an ideological nightmare.

Jacksambuck · 2013-12-08T19:41:33+00:00

How personally attached do you feel to the MRM movement?

Not much. I just think they're mostly correct about feminism and men's issues. I have no problem with being called a MRA in a gender debate context, since both feminists and MRAs will consider me as being on that side, but that's about it. There are many other groups and positions I defend.

If someone were to make a statement believing the net impact of the MRM might have more negatives than positives, would you listen to such a perspective? Or would you feel upset someone said something negative about your group and tune it out?

Not at all. Criticism is necessary and good, and at the very least should always be tolerated.

Can you imagine a potential future where the MRM became responsible for predominately harmful things in society? Can you envision a day where you would actively oppose the MRM movement as a group? Do you believe it's possible the group could make assumptions on bad information and cause social harm even with good intentions? Do you believe it's possible the group could become overwhelmed with people with poor intentions?

Yes to all. This is true for all movements.

jpflathead · 2013-12-08T22:13:06+00:00

I feel very committed to father's issues.

I am less committed to men's issues because so many of the men's issues leaders in the past and in the present enjoy shooting themselves in the foot and do so whenever possible.

I like my feet so it makes it hard for me to support our various men's rights leaders (be they men or women.)

And often times even criticizing our men's rights leaders brings on condemnation and at their sites banning as they attempt to replicate the success of feminist sites as they see it.

And that happens in this group as well.

Who would be committed to that shit and it's why fathers rights groups often find it necessary to distance themselves from men's rights. The feminists lie and fear monger about men's rights activists, but then our leaders to everything they can to turn those feminist lies into truths.

2013-12-09T23:41:20+00:00

Any time you attach your identity to something larger you get swallowed by it's doctrines and dogmas. Its the same for feminists who see themselves as perpetual victims despite their victim/oppression being lower than most men.

The same can happen here. MRAs can begin to see themselves as perpetually oppressed and even become angry when someone suggests they aren't.

For that reason, a tough lesson I learned identifying as a 'skeptic' and 'atheist', I cannot and will not associate myself with the MRM or as an MRA. If anything I am a universalist, or a humanist.

We all have issues that affect our lives for worse or better, and our goal in this life should be make laws and enforce laws without regard to gender.

Plus there are a lot of asshats in the MRM. Let's be honest about that. Everyone who uses trans-phobic language like 'mangina' is hurting the movement and putting our issues on the back burner.

Bartab · 2013-12-08T21:35:10+00:00

If someone were to make a statement believing the net impact of the MRM might have more negatives than positives, would you listen to such a perspective?

In any textual discussion I would expect something like "it has more negatives, because..." or I would dismiss it. If they're not going to identify their reasoning at the time, they're not honestly debating and simply trying to troll. Invariably such claims when pressed leads to worthless back and forth equivalent to "well it's obvious" "how?" "it's just obvious shitlord!" So I'm just going to short circuit them and not give them the attention they clearly desire.

I engage in the same when I point out that feminism is damaging in areas outside this reddit. Here, I expect people to be familiar with the content on the sidebar.

avantvernacular · 2013-12-09T06:05:31+00:00

All things are fallible, the MRM being no exception. We should be consciously aware of it, such as to increase the possibility of stopping it from happening.

The MRM needs to make sure not to make the mistakes that feminists organizations have made, and be sure to stop exactly at equality, and not an inch past it.

hugged_at_gunpoint · 2013-12-08T18:46:37+00:00

When it comes to feminism, I tend to agree with that perspective. It seems like there is a strong emotional attachment formed to that group, a near religious fervor to the ideals, and to challenge the intentions of the overall group itself, results in negative emotions and censoring of that information. A bit like talking to a religious person.

Feminists are not a "group" anymore than people who believe in racial equality are a group. Feminism is a concept, and it means "Equal rights for women". That will never change, regardless of what people who loudly identify themselves as "Feminists" do today. Feminism, as a movement, already happened. It was when women got the right to vote, the right to own property, etc. Being "anti-feminist" is akin to being against all the advances of women's rights in the past hundred years. It shouldn't be any surprise why people are very protective of Feminism.

Feminists today are to Feminism what extremists are to Islam. They may be the most vocal and politically active ones, but that doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of Islamic people are peaceful and do not loudly call themselves "ISLAMIST!!". To be anti-islam is horribly counter-productive if you're trying to stop extremists.

Instead of portraying ourselves as anti-feminist, we should be exposing specific grievances and persons. Whether such persons call themselves Feminists is beside our point, and shouldn't be a part of the MRA narrative.

Title	Fallibility of the MRM?
Author	MrKocha
Upvotes	19
Comments	25
Date	December 8, 2013 2:14 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1sdvve/fallibility_of_the_mrm/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/fallibility-of-the-mrm.1156740 https://theredarchive.com/post/1156740

Comments